12 ms·

In years to come we will look down on the 5 day working week in the same way we currently do with 15hr factory shifts during the industrial revolution. It abso

In years to come we will look down on the 5 day working week in the same way we currently do with 15hr factory shifts during the industrial revolution. It absolutely blows my mind that 99% of office roles are still 5 days / week, Monday to Friday - why is there basically no variation on this model? It annoys me so much that I recently launched https://4dayweek.io/ https://4dayweek.io/ (Software Jobs with a better work / life balance)

MattGaiser 5y ago
You need consistent variation for everyone if you are in a fast moving organization. I worked for an organization where people had one flex day off every two weeks. In practice, it made Tue-Thur the only days for collaboration as it was otherwise normal for someone to be out of the office. It worked because it was government with long project cycles. It would not work for my current company. It would cause issues with clients and project speed.
- luffapi 5y ago
  I feel like if you need all hands on deck 100% of the time, your process is flawed. Software productivity is exclusively driven by good devs who are properly motivated. If you want to succeed, maximize their creativity and peace of mind. The 5 day work week is diametrically opposed to that and one of the reasons devs burn out so quickly. They’re being treated like manual labor in a creative field.
  - missedthecue 5y ago
    It's not that you need all hands on deck 100% of the time. It's that having people take random days off week to week is very sub-optimal and youre liable to get outcompeted. You're no longer a well oiled machine at that point, but more of a janky chaotic mess. Consistency is good.
    - luffapi 5y ago
      That’s not true at all. Look at open source. Some of the most important software in the world was written when the devs were motivated to write it, not 9-5 m-f.
      - missedthecue 5y ago
        An open source project isn't the same thing as a several thousand person corporation with not only engineers, but business analysts, legal departments, accounting, sales, client services, human resources, IT, management, and so on and so forth. Each has deadlines they have to abide by, some set by their bosses, some set by the government, and others implicitly imposed by competitors. That's much different than a pet project that's being given away for free.
        zingar 5y ago
        I don't think gp was unaware of those conditions at corporates, but rather suggests that the layers of management, meetings and deadlines make for worse software. Also remember that opens source includes things like the Linux kernel. That "pet" project underpins almost all software that the hypothetical corporate uses and makes, and does it without the meetings and the deadlines.
      - regularfry 5y ago
        Bear in mind that the modal Linux kernel dev is closer to a cubicle dweller than a basement dweller. For large, important projects it absolutely is 9-5.
      - Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
        Most of the open source developers who created 'most important software in the world' were paid to do it. There are very few oss projects that were developed only by volunteers.
        luffapi 5y ago
        I think Linus and 90% of GitHub projects would disagree.
  - fuzzfactor 5y ago
    >if you need all hands on deck 100% of the time, your process is flawed. Seriously. Especially when you run 24/7. Then you know it's really bad when a 24/7 operation "rises" to a challenge by calling all hands on deck. And at the same time battle stations because they don't even know the difference.
  - alkonaut 5y ago
    Being negatively affected by lack of sync (days off, different time zones) isn’t the same as needing 100% hands on deck. Collaboration is often limited by the pace of a human interaction: a design review, a question about some code etc. The only way to not have this speed limit is to remove all such interactions which is very difficult (and probably not desirable either). If I worked on off dates and my colleagues on even dates, the shortest time for me to get a code review would be 24h! Most communication can (and often should) be async, but there is a difference between a 10 minute turnaround and a day. Also, if something is very urgent one should be able to get hold of someone e.g give them a call. Developers hate being interrupted, for good reason, but that doesn’t mean developers should never expect to be interrupted. I think a shorter and flexible workweek is a good idea but having time zone overlap or “required work days” to maximize overlapping work time is probably required in most cases.
- wil421 5y ago
  For flex time to work it needs to be the same day, Friday. Half the team is on one Friday and the other half the next Friday.
  - stonemetal 5y ago
    I work at an office that does 9 80. At first they tried the half one Friday, half the other, but switched to everyone in on the same Friday. Basically it annoyed and confused customers trying to reach people. It is just easier to say the joint is closed every other Friday than have the customer try to remember if they need to call Bill or John on Friday.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > It is just easier to say the joint is closed every other Friday than have the customer try to remember if they need to call Bill or John on Friday. If your coverage plan relies on the customer knowing who to call when, your problem isn’t flex time.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > For flex time to work it needs to be the same day, Friday. Half the team is on one Friday and the other half the next Friday. That’s not flex time at all, that’s a fixed schedule where everyone has either even or odd Fridays off.
  - IncRnd 5y ago
    That isn't flex time, which allows workers to change their own work hours.
asiachick 5y ago
yes . soon will have the 3day work week followed by the 2day, the 1day and finally the 0day. each time productivity will skyrocket
- ddnb 5y ago
  I know your laughing at the idea, because of a lack of imagination I suppose, but to reach the point in having 0 day workweeks would mean every job can be fully automated. Most likely productivity will skyrocket in that case!
theogravity 5y ago
This is a cool idea - are these jobs treated as full time positions, or is it technically part time / contractor in your experience of listing them?
- philmcp 5y ago
  Ye most of the jobs offer full time benefits (healthcare etc) but are for 32 hours per week (4 days x 8 hours usually) It's a fairly small number of companies atm but it's growing fast
simonbarker87 5y ago
This looks great! Ruby jobs were showing up when I set it to JS but switching to node seemed fine, I didn’t expect UK based roles on there but pleased to see a couple - well done.
trainsplanes 5y ago
I hope so, but I'm not sure it'll be common for those outside of the tech class. For one, there was already a massive shift that nobody noticed. A few decades ago people complained about how awful and soul-crushing 9 to 5s were. Well, someone decided to reform that. Now 9 to 6 and 8 to 5 are everywhere. I've even known some people who get two 5 minute breaks at work, and now their job runs from 9 to 6:10. Insanity.
- fy20 5y ago
  In my country it's quite common for white collar workers to have a half day on Friday, or at least finish an hour earlier. Unless you work for a tech company... then it's 9-6 as usual.
- xwolfi 5y ago
  I do 8:45 to 7 and I dont even understand your point. I worked in France and in Hong Kong, I never heard of 9 to 5, and we re supposed to do 35 hours :D Or no lunch break ?
  - raxxorrax 5y ago
    Why would you work that long though? I would leave that corporation immediately.
  - Majestic121 5y ago
    In France, as a "cadre" (most tech people are cadre for some reason) you're paid by the day and not by the hour, hence there's no cap to 35h. You do however get RTT (basically paid holidays) to get back the hours that you do above 35h (usually half a day a week to compensate for the 40h classical work week)
raxxorrax 5y ago
On the other hand, many people complain that stores don't open on Sundays. Mostly hear that from students that could go shopping anytime they want...
- Vinnl 5y ago
  That's somewhat unrelated: different people could run the store the first four and the last four days of the week.
  - raxxorrax 5y ago
    I don't think it is completely unrelated. It can be, but it isn't in reality. Expectations are part of what shapes work culture. Not only because management would try to keep HR costs to a minimum.
gnubison 5y ago
Might want to check out "weekend Wednesday": https://youtu.be/ALaTm6VzTBw https://youtu.be/ALaTm6VzTBw

MattGaiser 5y ago

You need consistent variation for everyone if you are in a fast moving organization. I worked for an organization where people had one flex day off every two weeks. In practice, it made Tue-Thur the only days for collaboration as it was otherwise normal for someone to be out of the office. It worked because it was government with long project cycles. It would not work for my current company. It would cause issues with clients and project speed.

luffapi 5y ago
I feel like if you need all hands on deck 100% of the time, your process is flawed. Software productivity is exclusively driven by good devs who are properly motivated. If you want to succeed, maximize their creativity and peace of mind. The 5 day work week is diametrically opposed to that and one of the reasons devs burn out so quickly. They’re being treated like manual labor in a creative field.
- missedthecue 5y ago
  It's not that you need all hands on deck 100% of the time. It's that having people take random days off week to week is very sub-optimal and youre liable to get outcompeted. You're no longer a well oiled machine at that point, but more of a janky chaotic mess. Consistency is good.
  - luffapi 5y ago
    That’s not true at all. Look at open source. Some of the most important software in the world was written when the devs were motivated to write it, not 9-5 m-f.
    - missedthecue 5y ago
      An open source project isn't the same thing as a several thousand person corporation with not only engineers, but business analysts, legal departments, accounting, sales, client services, human resources, IT, management, and so on and so forth. Each has deadlines they have to abide by, some set by their bosses, some set by the government, and others implicitly imposed by competitors. That's much different than a pet project that's being given away for free.
      - zingar 5y ago
        I don't think gp was unaware of those conditions at corporates, but rather suggests that the layers of management, meetings and deadlines make for worse software. Also remember that opens source includes things like the Linux kernel. That "pet" project underpins almost all software that the hypothetical corporate uses and makes, and does it without the meetings and the deadlines.
    - regularfry 5y ago
      Bear in mind that the modal Linux kernel dev is closer to a cubicle dweller than a basement dweller. For large, important projects it absolutely is 9-5.
    - Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
      Most of the open source developers who created 'most important software in the world' were paid to do it. There are very few oss projects that were developed only by volunteers.
      - luffapi 5y ago
        I think Linus and 90% of GitHub projects would disagree.
- fuzzfactor 5y ago
  >if you need all hands on deck 100% of the time, your process is flawed. Seriously. Especially when you run 24/7. Then you know it's really bad when a 24/7 operation "rises" to a challenge by calling all hands on deck. And at the same time battle stations because they don't even know the difference.
- alkonaut 5y ago
  Being negatively affected by lack of sync (days off, different time zones) isn’t the same as needing 100% hands on deck. Collaboration is often limited by the pace of a human interaction: a design review, a question about some code etc. The only way to not have this speed limit is to remove all such interactions which is very difficult (and probably not desirable either). If I worked on off dates and my colleagues on even dates, the shortest time for me to get a code review would be 24h! Most communication can (and often should) be async, but there is a difference between a 10 minute turnaround and a day. Also, if something is very urgent one should be able to get hold of someone e.g give them a call. Developers hate being interrupted, for good reason, but that doesn’t mean developers should never expect to be interrupted. I think a shorter and flexible workweek is a good idea but having time zone overlap or “required work days” to maximize overlapping work time is probably required in most cases.
wil421 5y ago
For flex time to work it needs to be the same day, Friday. Half the team is on one Friday and the other half the next Friday.
- stonemetal 5y ago
  I work at an office that does 9 80. At first they tried the half one Friday, half the other, but switched to everyone in on the same Friday. Basically it annoyed and confused customers trying to reach people. It is just easier to say the joint is closed every other Friday than have the customer try to remember if they need to call Bill or John on Friday.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > It is just easier to say the joint is closed every other Friday than have the customer try to remember if they need to call Bill or John on Friday. If your coverage plan relies on the customer knowing who to call when, your problem isn’t flex time.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > For flex time to work it needs to be the same day, Friday. Half the team is on one Friday and the other half the next Friday. That’s not flex time at all, that’s a fixed schedule where everyone has either even or odd Fridays off.
- IncRnd 5y ago
  That isn't flex time, which allows workers to change their own work hours.

asiachick 5y ago

yes . soon will have the 3day work week followed by the 2day, the 1day and finally the 0day. each time productivity will skyrocket

ddnb 5y ago
I know your laughing at the idea, because of a lack of imagination I suppose, but to reach the point in having 0 day workweeks would mean every job can be fully automated. Most likely productivity will skyrocket in that case!

theogravity 5y ago

This is a cool idea - are these jobs treated as full time positions, or is it technically part time / contractor in your experience of listing them?

philmcp 5y ago
Ye most of the jobs offer full time benefits (healthcare etc) but are for 32 hours per week (4 days x 8 hours usually) It's a fairly small number of companies atm but it's growing fast

simonbarker87 5y ago

This looks great! Ruby jobs were showing up when I set it to JS but switching to node seemed fine, I didn’t expect UK based roles on there but pleased to see a couple - well done.

trainsplanes 5y ago

I hope so, but I'm not sure it'll be common for those outside of the tech class. For one, there was already a massive shift that nobody noticed. A few decades ago people complained about how awful and soul-crushing 9 to 5s were. Well, someone decided to reform that. Now 9 to 6 and 8 to 5 are everywhere. I've even known some people who get two 5 minute breaks at work, and now their job runs from 9 to 6:10. Insanity.

fy20 5y ago
In my country it's quite common for white collar workers to have a half day on Friday, or at least finish an hour earlier. Unless you work for a tech company... then it's 9-6 as usual.
xwolfi 5y ago
I do 8:45 to 7 and I dont even understand your point. I worked in France and in Hong Kong, I never heard of 9 to 5, and we re supposed to do 35 hours :D Or no lunch break ?
- raxxorrax 5y ago
  Why would you work that long though? I would leave that corporation immediately.
- Majestic121 5y ago
  In France, as a "cadre" (most tech people are cadre for some reason) you're paid by the day and not by the hour, hence there's no cap to 35h. You do however get RTT (basically paid holidays) to get back the hours that you do above 35h (usually half a day a week to compensate for the 40h classical work week)

raxxorrax 5y ago

On the other hand, many people complain that stores don't open on Sundays. Mostly hear that from students that could go shopping anytime they want...

Vinnl 5y ago
That's somewhat unrelated: different people could run the store the first four and the last four days of the week.
- raxxorrax 5y ago
  I don't think it is completely unrelated. It can be, but it isn't in reality. Expectations are part of what shapes work culture. Not only because management would try to keep HR costs to a minimum.

gnubison 5y ago

Might want to check out "weekend Wednesday": https://youtu.be/ALaTm6VzTBw https://youtu.be/ALaTm6VzTBw