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A Beginner’s Guide to Miles Davis
- OldGoodNewBad 5y agoHe was a great musician whose legacy is tainted by his racism, like many others. EDIT: just read his own quotes… https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Miles_Davis https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Miles_Davis
- the_af 5y agoCare to elaborate? I don't know much about Miles Davis' life, though I love his early jazz albums.
- SubGenius 5y agoThere's an excellent autobiography called Miles, by Quincy Troupe. I highly recommend it. I've read it a few times over the years. As for racism, Miles faced significant racism himself, being arrested, assaulted by police etc. I don't recall the details right now but he did say some angry and not-so-nice things about white people, perhaps born out of his own experiences. Nobody can fault him for any kind of discrimination in his music though, as he's helped shape the careers of many jazz artists over the years, from all backgrounds. In any case, Miles was a fascinating character. A master at his craft.
- parenthesis 5y agoThe ____ed up legacy of the arrest of Miles Davis (by Adam Neely): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sapc6BSxlRI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sapc6BSxlRI
- t3rabytes 5y agoI can’t find much context around this. Got some links?
- yoctonaut 5y agoHe worked with a lot of white musicians and arrangers. In the 1962 Playboy interview, he famously said, "I think prejudice one way is just as bad as the other way. I wouldn't have no other arranger but Gil Evans -- we couldn't be much closer if he was my brother. And I remember one time when I hired Lee Konitz, some colored cats bitched a lot about me hiring an ofay in my band when Negroes didn't have work. I said if a cat could play like Lee, I would hire him, I didn't give a damn if he was green and had red breath."
- Mediterraneo10 5y agoMiles became an ornery old man in the 1980s. Most of his angry statements (sure, some are about race, others are about all kinds of things he didn’t like for whatever reason) that became grist for quoting came generally when the quality of his work itself had already begun to decline significantly, in the view of most critics and jazz historians. For me, this doesn't “taint his legacy” as much as give me one more reason for ignoring his last decade, while still enjoying greatly the recordings generally regarded as classics.
- khazhoux 5y agoHis legacy is not tainted in the slightest. He was angry at the treatment of blacks by white America, and never apologized for it. In his professional life, he had life-long and career-defining relationships with white people (Teo Macero, Gil Evans, ...), and clearly did not let race stand in the way of great music.
- sgt 5y agoI saw that. If that hurts you as a white male (I am assuming that's what you are, like most of HN), then you just need to grow some thicker skin. IMO racism against us hardly feels more than a little "prick" compared to what it does to minorities with a history of discriminations. Unless of course you've bought into victim mentality.
- OldGoodNewBad 5y agoRacism against whites in the United States is much more serious than against minorities simply because there are so many more whites who are affected by it. Blacks are about 11% of the population, for example, while whites make up over half. Anti-white attitudes will not be tolerated.
- Slow_Hand 5y agoIf you want to discuss this, I think it would help to highlight or post some applicable quotes for us rather than dumping a page of close to 50 quotes (of varied content) and expecting us to read through all of them until we find the ones you may or may not be referring to. As to Mile's supposed racism. I've never gotten the impression that he's had some inherent prejudice against other groups. What I would agree with, though, are his reactions to the various injustices and indignities of his own experience in America. His statements are nothing that I wouldn't expect from someone who was treated the way he was. In his autobiography he describes his experience going to Paris for the first time and the revelation of being treated with the dignity and respect for someone of his status. Something he had rarely, if ever, received back home. As another poster has said, if what he has to say about white people in America offends you, then perhaps you need some thicker skin. As far as I can tell, Miles' assessments are fair.
- UncleMeat 5y agoYeah I find it pretty hard to imagine how any black person in the US during the first half of the 20th century wouldn't develop a dissatisfaction with white America. Heck, Davis was personally beaten up by a cop just for being black.
- analog31 5y agoReading some of the biographies of the jazz greats really opened my eyes to that experience. I mean, my eyes should have already been open, but hearing it from jazz musicians made a particular impact on me.
- lowkey 5y agoIf you really want to understand what made Miles unique I would skip the rest and jump straight to the Fusion period. Notably missing in the write-up are two incredible live performances: Dark Magus and Live Evil.
- khazhoux 5y agoMy first reaction was to strongly disagree on advising a newbie to start with that period, but you are right to say that period will be the most "unique", even to modern ears. His 50's-60's work was genius, but is still an easily accessible language, even to non-jazz folks. His later output, by contrast, is a language that was never quite-this or quite-that. It never popularized, and will seem rather bizarre to most people even today.
- Mediterraneo10 5y agoStrange to say that Miles' fusion never popularized, because Bitches Brew sold well and sparked imitators (Herbie Hancock's fusion era, Mahavishnu Orchestra, Weather Report, Jaco Pastorious) that also sold well and sold out conventional concert venues. As the Wikipedia article for Bitches Brew notes, the album “was viewed by some writers in the 1970s as what spurred jazz's renewed popularity with mainstream audiences that decade.”
- khazhoux 5y agoI mean that the musical language of BB (perfect example) won't be familiar to people today (same as it was unfamiliar back then). By contrast, any of his quintet performances is easily recognized as "jazz", even to people who don't listen to jazz. BB will be more like "what am I listening to??" Do you disagree?
- SubGenius 5y agoThat does make sense to an extent. The average listener today is more likely to think of cheesy 80s synthy jazz fusion when they hear of the term, rather than something like Bitches Brew.
- SubGenius 5y agoMiles Davis had the greatest set of ears too. His thoughts on his contemporaries in these blind tests are very interesting, and hilarious. "For a long time, Miles Davis and I had been trying to get together for a blindfold session. I was determined that when the interview did take place, it would be something out of the ordinary run of blindfold tests; and that's just the way it turned out. Every record selected was one that featured at least two trumpet players. As you will see, this selection of material did not faze Miles. Miles was given no information whatever, either before or during the test, about the records played for him." - http://www.forghieri.net/jazz/blind/Davis_1.html http://www.forghieri.net/jazz/blind/Davis_1.html - http://www.forghieri.net/jazz/blind/Davis_2.html http://www.forghieri.net/jazz/blind/Davis_2.html - http://www.forghieri.net/jazz/blind/Davis_3.html http://www.forghieri.net/jazz/blind/Davis_3.html - http://www.forghieri.net/jazz/blind/Davis_4.html http://www.forghieri.net/jazz/blind/Davis_4.html
- picodguyo 5y agoGreat reads, thanks for sharing. It's like you can see him getting angrier and more disillusioned with jazz and the industry in general with each session. I also learned a new racist slur from that last one!
- selimthegrim 5y agoIt's not in common use since the 70s.
- zrobotics 5y agoUmm, I don't know about that. I've definitely heard 2 of my black friends disparagingly refer to other black people as uncle tom's within the last several years. That book, or at least tangential references, is apparently still in cultural memory. FWIW, this is the upper midwest, that slur might not be a thing on the west coast, I can't say. For GP, based on the novel "Uncle Tom's Cabin" [1]. The book was abolitionist, but a quick read through of the wiki should give some background on why the title characters name is now a slur. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncle_Tom's_Cabin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncle_Tom's_Cabin
- khazhoux 5y agoSince I was a teenager, several decades ago, I've been deeply steeped in his music and life (read his autobiography so many years ago). But I had a huge revelation only recently, thanks to YouTube clips: Miles was an extremely gracious person. His on-stage and off-stage persona are so gruff... to the point, tell it like it is, take no shit, accept only the best work from people around you. But in interview after interview, he deflects personal credit and always (always!) raises up the young musicians around him. I never realized that selflessness.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- actually_a_dog 5y agoA legend is an old man with a cane known for what he used to do. I'm still doing it. -- On being called a "legend." Miles Davis, 1991. IIRC, only the tiniest handful of people could have unironically said that at any time in the 90's besides him. Off the top of my head, the only one really coming to mind is Michael Jordan (the NBA player, not the actor).
- spodek 5y agoAli
- boomboomsubban 5y agoAli's last bout was in 81, and he was diagnosed with Parkinson's in 84. Sadly, he did spend most the 90's as a legend.
- pfarrell 5y agoI think David Bowie is in that league. Even into the 2000’s was still pushing himself and I love his final album. I think Beastie Boys, too. Their last album, they were still looking for new sounds.
- pstuart 5y agoBowie was absolutely in that league. It took me several years to appreciate his final album because of the circumstances but it is sublime. I had kind of written him off after his "Let's Dance" sellout period I regret it. The second half of his career compliments the first half.
- jyriand 5y agoLet's Dance is actually a track that gave young Stevie Ray Vaughan a chance to shine with his guitar.
- pfarrell 5y agoOf course, these examples are shadows of what Miles Davis accomplished. He’s in a league of his own. He fundamentally changed Jazz at least 3 times if not more. Influential in Bebop (he claimed to have written Donna Lee), Cool, Modal, Fusion, maybe some Third Stream. Guy was an incredible musician.
- yesenadam 5y agoI have a page on my website where you can listen to a lot of bootleg recordings of Miles gigs, mostly 1950-70s. Enjoy! http://www.adamponting.com/miles-davis/ http://www.adamponting.com/miles-davis/ All these can be found through SugarMegs search page http://tela.sugarmegs.org/ http://tela.sugarmegs.org/ For best possible audio/video quality, join DIME torrents, which is where SugarMegs gets its stuff. http://www.dimeadozen.org/ http://www.dimeadozen.org/ Warning: If you're new to SugarMegs, prepare to lose a few days of your life. They have so much great stuff. Also, if you come across a set list that you can improve significantly (like you know all the song names), send them an updated HTML set list file, they really appreciate it.
- zrobotics 5y agoMy God, that warning is definitely needed. I'm either going to be extra productive tomorrow or not get a single thing accomplished, but this is great info. Mostly commenting b/c I can't favorite on mobile,but also to say thanks for posting that resource. I'll have to dig through and see if I have anything I can contribute. Thanks!
- knolan 5y agoThere’s a favourite link at the top of the page on mobile just under the thread title.
- johncoltrane 5y ago_Many_ thanks.
- tomaskafka 5y ago> We are very sorry! > At the moment, signup to DIME is closed. Please check back with us in a few days for a re-opening. > Thank you very much for your understanding. Oh noes! Hope they reopen soon!
- yesenadam 5y agoHmm yeah.. They explain about that issue in the FAQ, section 2.1. There's quite a lot to learn in that FAQ. http://wiki.dimeadozen.org/index.php/DimeFAQ:Frequently_Asked_Questions#When_can_I_sign_up.3F_Every_time_I_try_to_register.2C_either_you.27re_full_up_or_signup_is_closed http://wiki.dimeadozen.org/index.php/DimeFAQ:Frequently_Aske.... SugarMegs seems to have just about all the audio that DIME has anyway, and at very decent quality. It's mostly not great quality audio to begin with. But DIME does have video too! Most things I would've wanted on there, I was already very familiar with thanks to SugarMegs. I've joined DIME a few times, and the same thing happened each time—I download a lot of stuff, then you can't download more until your ratio is >=0.25, which can take a few months, so I seed as much as I can for months...and then before I get around to visiting again they boot you off because you haven't logged into the site in 3 months.
- bernardv 5y agoHis sound-track to “Lift to the Gallows”, a French movie, is my favourite. https://youtu.be/PW-SxgZViuk https://youtu.be/PW-SxgZViuk https://youtu.be/VjHCyl6X2q8 https://youtu.be/VjHCyl6X2q8
- hardwaregeek 5y agoIt’s such a beautiful soundtrack. Perfectly paired with Jeanne Moreau despondently walking through the Paris night
- mustacheemperor 5y agoThis reminded me of this 10 year old YouTube video that creates a "duet" between that soundtrack and LCD Soundsystem's New York I Love You But You're Bringing Me Down, which served as one of my most memorable early introductions to jazz: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huEtJw7pfLk&t=0s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huEtJw7pfLk&t=0s
- scotuswroteus 5y agoA beginner's guide to Miles Davis is listen to Kind of Blue.
- Tiktaalik 5y agoDuring the pandemic I started listening to a bunch of Jazz again, listening to Miles Davis of course, but also a bit more of his collaborators such as Bill Evans and Wayne Shorter. One person I really started listening to a lot more of that I didn't before is Ahmad Jamal, who I know is an artist Miles Davis was a big fan of. IMO if you like Miles Davis you should really have a listen to Jamal as well. Davis was clearly listening to Jamal. Miles Davis was often criticized for being too commercial, but I I didn't realize that Jamal was criticized for the same thing. Jamal had cross over to pop appeal well beyond a typical Jazz musician.
- xyzzy_plugh 5y agoI've been lucky enough to see Jamal live a few times and it's great. Some real gems in there. I really enjoy the variation and evolution between his recordings of the same tracks, if you can find them!
- widdershins 5y agoYeah, I played Ahmad Jamal to my girlfriend and she thought it sounds very 'cocktail' jazz. And she's right, it does! But the melodies and phrasing in his work are complex and beautiful, just like Miles.
- Tiktaalik 5y agoha! yes this was the criticism of him from jazz critics. cocktail jazz.
- jonstewart 5y agoTyler Cowen’s the man to turn to when you want a great little ethnic restaurant in Rockville or Annandale, but panning Kind of Blue as overrated is peak Mercatus Center performative bloviating. Here, go read Nat Hentoff’s interview with Miles from 1958 instead: https://www.jazzstudiesonline.org/files/jso/resources/pdf/JREVOne2.pdf https://www.jazzstudiesonline.org/files/jso/resources/pdf/JR... [pdf]
- paulpauper 5y ago> Tyler Cowen described the album as the ‘Mona Lisa’ of jazz: undeniably a great work of art, but overplayed and overrated. Nonetheless, I think it’s essential to listen to all of it. yes, the great music critic Tyler Cowen. No offense, but why is his opinion even relevant here? How is he qualified, compared to someone who either composes jazz or is a professional music critic?
- brewdad 5y agoTyler Cowen always has an opinion and the author is an econ undergrad, so it just makes sense.
- katabasis 5y agoFor fans of Miles' later period, this project is releasing every live tape of his performances from 1969-1975, in order and with commentary: https://theheatwarps.com/ https://theheatwarps.com/ Some real gems here, most of which are free to download. I admire the level of borderline-obsessive dedication required to keep such a project going!
- jkuria 5y agoSo why do Jazz purists dislike Kenny G? (And Smooth Jazz in general, which is much more accessible). I want to relax and enjoy music, not work hard to appreciate its intellectual rigor! If you want intellectual challenge then maybe you should enroll for a graduate program in Theoretical Physics :)
- santiagobasulto 5y agoI’m not a profesional musician, but I think it’s because of the lack of “boldness” of Smooth Jazz. Jazz might sound like an “old” style, but it was always bold, and audacious genre. You don’t have a 10year span without someone kicking the table and experimenting with something completely new and crazy (for the time being). Jazz is also consumed by people that know a lot about music, and these people get “bored” pretty quickly if they’re not stimulated by bold moves and perfect execution. And Miles had a lot to do with this (I didn’t read the article). Btw, there’s nothing wrong if you like Smooth Jazz or Kenny G or whatever. Music is music. Whatever makes you feel good.
- eyelidlessness 5y agoI’m only speaking from my taste here but… interesting music isn’t work. It’s just what catches your ear and your brain and your emotions. The “weird” jazz (I’m quoting one of my favorite live jazz drummers who correctly noted I “like when it gets weird”) isn’t work, for people who enjoy it. At least not passively enjoying it, as a musician I’m sure there’s a lot more thought process around what you can learn from it. But as a listener who likes it, it’s just really interesting to hear. It’s not a challenge or an intellectual pursuit.
- leephillips 5y agoIt’s elevator music. (You asked.) I agree that the purpose is enjoyment. But art that demands attention, and, yes, some work, repays with a higher level of enjoyment. This is true for music, literature, movies, anything.
- hluska 5y agoIf you want the long version, written by a qualified person, Pat Metheny’s views on Kenny G are well written and reasonably accessible: http://www.jazzoasis.com/methenyonkennyg.htm http://www.jazzoasis.com/methenyonkennyg.htm If you’d like a short answer by someone who isn’t qualified, it comes down to the disparity between his record sales and talent. Purists feel he has sold a shit tonne of records despite not being up to the technical standards set by the great sax players. I’m not much of a Kenny G fan but I find that kind of criticism rather unwarranted. I don’t think it’s particularly fair to compare him to people like Coltrane or Cannonball as they’re almost completely different genres. To me (I’m not qualified), it’s like comparing baseball players to cricket players. All that blah blah blah aside, like what you like and be proud about it. Purists can be wrong and they’re definitely not you.
- eyelidlessness 5y agoI’ve wished for two decades that I was more familiar with his work, but haven’t given it the time it deserves. Certain songs are my favorite jazz, by far excepting a few Coltrane songs. But I just don’t know my way around, and I’ve spent too much time avoiding Bitches Brew (no judgment, but not my thing, even though it hits a lot of my tastes) fanatics who always want to show me that. I’m not at a place where I can take much from this now but I’ll definitely reference it again when I can.
- leetrout 5y agoMeh. People like what they like but I hate that whole album. Some may say the same for Kind Of Blue. I bought it on CD at Walmart in the 90s as a teen and fell in love with it. Never knew Miles was the Giant he was until later in high school.
- naltun 5y agoMiles Davis is the coolest cat around. My top man is Don Cherry, however.
- paulpauper 5y agoMiles Davis is like the Forest Gump of music in that despite dying at age of only 65 in 1991, his career spanned so many epochs in US history, and always adapting with the times. Such as from the Jim Crow era of America from the 40 and 50s, to the era integration and social upheaval of the 60s to the 70s, to the digital and synth age starting in the 80s, the ending information age in the 90s. Nowadays, it seems like artists are stuck in a fixed, amorphous state of time between the early 2000s and present, whereas in the 20th century each decade was distinct in some way culturally, socially, and musically.
- singingfish 5y agoThere's the classic miles davis/nancy regan urban legend (which is almost certainly false): "Well, I've changed the course of music five or six times. What have you done except fuck the president?" But miles did reinvent musical genres several times.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- jyriand 5y agoAt least for me it seems that jazz is meant to be listened to by musicians. Otherwise you will miss 90% of what's going on. I remember an episode from Youn Indiana Jones Chronicles, where he stumbled upon jazz scene and learned to play a trumpet, he started soloing and everyone was like:"this is not jazz" and I was thinking "this is pretty good". I'm able to enjoy blues because I understand basics of it, but jazz seems way over my head. I wish there was a course, a series that could teach you how to listen.
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- leto_ii 5y ago> jazz is meant to be listened to by musicians I've noticed that many people have an impression of jazz as being very technical and abstruse. Personally I got into it as a young teenager just because I liked the way it sounded. I didn't know anything about its cultural context and certainly nothing about musical theory (in the meantime I've learned a bit about the history of the genre, but still remain completely ignorant of musical theory). My approach with jazz, as with any other piece of art, is to enjoy in the simplest and most direct way the things that give me a nice feeling or that challenge and surprise me and at the same time to discard those things that I don't like. I suspect any professional or serious aficionado would find this approach childish and rudimentary, but I don't care in the least. > a series that could teach you how to listen If there is such a thing I think you should run away from it. At least as a consumer of art you should look into the things that speak to you personally without regard for how high-brow (or low-brow) they may be considered. This is not to say that you should immediately dismiss things that are 'too fancy', but just that it's OK not to like them.
- mabub24 5y agoOne of the best "courses" for it is to understand how it developed. The miniseries Jazz by Ken Burns from 2000 is excellent and offers an extremely good intro to jazz. Don't take it as gospel though; some people have very strong opinions on it.
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- vermilingua 5y ago> There is a perception that jazz is dead, and Davis himself even famously declared that jazz was dead. This is pretty unfair. For one thing, almost all of jazz is on Spotify now at amazingly high quality. I think the recognition of this trend is what led people to start declaring "jazz is dead".
- inopinatus 5y agoWhen learning to play jazz, one option is to practice using pre-recorded generic/commercially available backing tracks. They're alright for for practicing changes or just noodling a solo, but they also get old fast; nothing substitutes jamming with other musicians. The middle ground is using a well-known classic with enough room in the music to develop your own ideas, and for me Kind of Blue was (and remains) the stand-out stellar joy to play along to; damn if Miles doesn't leave a ton of space for others to fill in, and his collaborators were polite enough not to take all of it. For a group where we talk often about frameworks and architecture, and ponder the dividing line between a platform and an application, perhaps it's worth seeing parallels in the field of music. Miles Davis wasn't just one of the greatest musicians of all time, he was also one of the great architects of music, and Kind of Blue a shining example. That's a far cry from "overplayed and overrated", which upon investigation appears to be a misquotation/misparaphrase of a disposable observation made for the purposes of debate during an economics professor's podcast (no, really). If that's the standard of evidence, I suggest taking the more subjective assessments in this article with a huge grain of salt, notwithstanding that it's otherwise a decent overview for those not overly familiar with the jazz canon.
- pachico 5y agoI remember when our teacher of "African American Musical Civilization" in college used to say "Davis didn't invent anything, he was an opportunist that improved what already existed". I don't have great memories of that teacher and, regardless of if what he said was true or not, doing what he said Miles did, is not a trivial and/or bad thing at all. In any case, I wish there were more "basic guides to X", being X whatever artist that has a certain level of fame and recognition which I fail to understand the reason for.
- martijn_himself 5y agoA tangential question: for someone who has tried to listen to Jazz and Classical music but always found it sort of.. pretentious(?) would you have any advice or recommendations? I find myself less interested in music these days, although I'd say I would be more of a fan of the blues genre. I would really like to be able to listen to something (maybe only in the background) and enjoy it.
- leto_ii 5y ago> always found it sort of.. pretentious I've encountered this reaction a lot, but I suspect that it actually stems from a dislike of the kind of people that often listen to jazz/classical etc. which it then extended to the music itself. My approach is to enjoy the music in complete isolation from the 'aficionado community'. Music is something that any human being is capable of enjoying, no need to have a degree in musicology or to be a musician yourself. > I'd say I would be more of a fan of the blues genre That's perfectly fine, no need to listen to things you don't like :) - keep in mind though that it's important to assess the thing itself, not its fanbase. > maybe only in the background Perhaps this is a problem. My experience with jazz and classical is that at their best they really aren't background music, at least not for the first few hearings. I would recommend setting some time aside to listen intently and to explore the feelings or visual imagery that the music elicits - not the kind of feelings/imagery that you think it should elicit (because some critic said it should), but what you actually feel. Hopefully something will come out of that. If it doesn't it's also fine.
- C19is20 5y agoLook up Rick Beato on YouTube - he has the answers. / serious.
- Slow_Hand 5y agoSeconded. Rick is great. His music theory analyses may not be wanted/useful for non-musicians, but he’s very good at communicating what makes a given song/artist special.
- bsenftner 5y ago
- ben7799 5y agoLooks like a great article, I will have to spend some time listening, though I've already listened to tons of Miles Davis over the years. These articles are always missing a ton when they're written by a non-musician. That seems to be the issue with jazz. It's really really hard to tell what's going on if you're not a player, and jazz is not an easy thing to understand and learn even when you are a player. I took Music History as an elective in college and it was really tough as a non-musician to understand a lot of this stuff. I made it a goal to learn an instrument and actually learn to understand this stuff as an adult as a result. And Jazz of course comes up as something very tricky to get your head around when you're trying to play it. The "aha" moments when you dig deep into a piece trying to play it/studying the score are what makes it special, and these kind of treatments of famous musicians completely gloss over that, as if it doesn't even exist.