7 ms·

Saving books by keeping them expensive (2011)

49 points by TheTrotters 5y ago

Causality1 5y ago
The prices of e-books, which currently account for less than 1 percent of all book sales in Germany, are regulated by the Buchpreisbindung. I must be missing something fundamental because I don't understand how you could hope to enforce that. If I was running a website selling eBooks I would not pay the slightest bit of attention as to the physical location of my customers.
- kenniskrag 5y ago
  Every online shop has to consider the location of the customer because of legal requirements.
  - yonixw 5y ago
    How so if I'm B2C getting payment from PayPal? Maybe if I'm B2B and want to have a deal with some Germany company\institute.
    - tablespoon 5y ago
      Even if you do something like that, there may be some other enforcement (e.g. through customs or the postal service). But they'll probably not care unless you're a big fish. Also, it probably helps that German is mainly spoken in three countries: Germany, Austria, and Switzerland. Some quick googling leaves me with the impression that Austria has similar regulations, and the OP said Switzerland was considering adopting them. I'm guessing all almost all the publishers of quality German-language books are based in one of those countries, and they would probably be unwilling to be associated with a scheme to undermine the regulations.
    - TheCoelacanth 5y ago
      Do you honestly think that PayPal will continue collecting payments from German customers for you if they get a court order from a German court telling them to stop? You might be able to continue selling a small amount to a few Germans who have a bank account in another country or who will pay you in cryptocurrency, but the vast majority of your customers won't go to the trouble.
    - jimkleiber 5y ago
      Various VAT and sales taxes often apply based on where the purchaser is, not where the seller is. So if I sell an ebook from the US to someone in Germany, I believe I'm supposed to retain and remit VAT for Germany. If someone is in France and buys the ebook, I have to retain and remit the French VAT to France, etc. There are some thresholds where if I sell below that, I don't think I have to remit, and those seem to vary at least across Europe, let alone all the US states and other countries. Personally, I believe it's a mess and geographically based governments really don't know how to manage virtually based human interactions and they're just stamping old systems onto new ones. Yet, AFAIK, that's why a B2C seller is supposed to know the physical location of the buyers.
    - Cthulhu_ 5y ago
      PayPal will send relevant records to the German authorities on the regular for tax reasons and transparency. If they violate German and/or EU laws, they will get fined hundreds of millions, if not billions. And lose their licenses. They don't risk that.
  - Causality1 5y ago
    Why? If I have a website based in the US and I accept PayPal the worst someone in Germany can do to me is dispute the charge and get a refund. I have no presence in Germany nor will I ever set foot there.
    - TheCoelacanth 5y ago
      That will work until German law enforcement notices and gets PayPal to shut down payments to you from German customers. They won't even work with legal but controversial industries like pornography. They aren't going to stick their neck out for something that is flagrantly illegal.
pacman2 5y ago
Yes, it may have advantages. But every advantage comes with disadvantages. Same with Uber, which is forbidden in Germany. Once you get used to Uber you wonder, how you were you able to ever live without it. Germany is a backward country. Digitization is 3rd world there. Looks, like under Merkel the country has been asleep for two decades. I am not sure they are going to wake up.
- taneq 5y ago
  Don't you have taxis there? Or are they just terrible (like ours used to be 10 years ago)? I've never used Uber (don't like how invasive the app is) but I do use taxis regularly and since Uber started operating here I've found that the general quality of the taxi service has improved dramatically. Turns out state-sponsored quasi-monopolies aren't that great after all...
- hellbannedguy 5y ago
  I have noticed Uber pricing is slowly rising. Wait until they put all taxi services out if business, and lobby politicians more heavily than now. They proved money can buy a Proposition.
  - andrepd 5y ago
    It's pure dumping. Burn an astounding amount of money on subsidising your product to undercut competitors and on advertising, then once you got the market on your hands jack up the prices.
    - TheTrotters 5y ago
      But that strategy is probably impossible in a market where the cost to entry is fairly low. Suppose Uber drives out literally all cab companies out of the market in some city and rises prices to absurdly high levels. Creating a brand new cab company isn’t that hard. Lease cars, create a decent app, advertise a little and you’re good to go.
      - 5y ago
aurizon 5y ago
Germany does well because there is a fairly low level of unemployment, and unions have board representation = they get ALL the financials = they know when things are good and bad, and by general cross industry co-operation only ask for wage increases when the company can afford it. There have been occasions where wages went down - for the good of the company. Similar to Japanese unions. In addition, the spread between the lowest wages and the average is small by US standards, so even the lower paid people can get by OK. In the USA the unions demand beyond what the companies can afford = the US auto and machine tool business was exported to Taiwan, Japan, Korea and now China - whose quality gets better every year. See what tunnel diggers and crane operators get in New York if you want a shock and an answer to why US subways and highrises cost so much (as well as land costs) and corporate real estate rent extortion = where the next crash will come from as business taxes are applied to corporate rentals for residences.
- loonster 5y ago
  Sandhogs made an average of $45/hr in NYC. National average appears to be $22. That's high but not crazy. It's a dangerous job that can easy kill your coworkers or ruin millions of dollars worth of work. I personally would not to work with some fucktard making 10/hr if my life will depend on him. Cranes can also kill coworkers and cause millions of dollars in damages. The operators should get a premium.... https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702303936704576399563008284024 https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702303936704576399... $82/hr with 56 hours of overtime a week. Okay that's just excessive union bullshit.
  - qxga 5y ago
    > $82/hr with 56 hours of overtime a week. Okay that's just excessive union bullshit. If the company can afford it and still make a profit (which would mean their labor is generating >$82hr in value!), then it's not "bullshit." It's smart moves by the union, and evidence that the higher-ups who don't do dangerous work are/were the ones being absurdly overpaid.
captn3m0 5y ago
Related fact: Germany was one of the last countries to adopt copyright laws, and even then they were pretty lax[0]. Historians believe that this legal situation was one the factors behind the rise in Germany’s industrial prowess. In a way, Germany became a industrial powerhouse because _it had cheap books_. [0]: Arsene Lupin’s adventures with Sherlock Holmes were published as “Herlock Sholmes” everywhere except Germany for eg.
- gentleman11 5y ago
  It would be an impressive case study but it would take a lot of evidence to prove. My impression was that Germany was an industrial powerhouse because of their fragmented states prior to unification, leading to needing a hard work ethic to get by. They also inherited the holy Roman empires administrative mindset, and had them less diluted than the rest of Europe since the eastern empire lasted centuries longer.
  - captn3m0 5y ago
    Here’s the citation that Wikipedia gives: https://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/no-copyright-law-the-real-reason-for-germany-s-industrial-expansion-a-710976.html https://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/no-copyright-... There definitely were a lot of factors, and lax copyright was one of them.
    - Merem 5y ago
      Interestingly enough, it's a rather bad article that goes for framing things in a certain light...like mentioning Prussia's copyright law from 1837 and then going on to say way later: "The market for scientific literature didn't collapse even as copyright law gradually became established in Germany in the 1840s." No precise date there...which is 1845, as I mentioned in another comment, where the "Deutsche Bund" extended their own copyright law which existed beforehand. Prussia's law is insofar worth mentioning as it was really modern and comprehensive for its time....which isn't acknowledged at all in the article. The way they used Prussia's law from 1837, they could have used another state's one where printing businesses had "copyright" (printing privileges) for two years if they used it (as an example), and that started in the late 15th century, instead. Or they could have used the French-style copyright laws introduced in some states in the early 1800s due to the French invasion. Of course, due to the plethora of states and the lack of an encompassing law which the "Deutsche Bund" had to establish first, one could just hop across a border and copy a work, thus rendering the copyright law of a state effectively useless. That's also the reason why I didn't bother mentioning it at all in my other comment but here it's relevant because the article writes: "Germany, on the other hand, didn't bother with the concept of copyright for a long time", right before mentioning Prussia's 1837 law which is just straight up nonsense.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
8bitsrule 5y ago
>mantra that price is everything, and lower is always better than higher. Quality decides what 'better' is, not price. A tool made by a craftsman with much better materials will, itself, be used to create superior results. There are two kinds of book readers in the world, my friend.

49 points by TheTrotters 5y ago

The prices of e-books, which currently account for less than 1 percent of all book sales in Germany, are regulated by the Buchpreisbindung. I must be missing something fundamental because I don't understand how you could hope to enforce that. If I was running a website selling eBooks I would not pay the slightest bit of attention as to the physical location of my customers.

kenniskrag 5y ago
Every online shop has to consider the location of the customer because of legal requirements.
- yonixw 5y ago
  How so if I'm B2C getting payment from PayPal? Maybe if I'm B2B and want to have a deal with some Germany company\institute.
  - tablespoon 5y ago
    Even if you do something like that, there may be some other enforcement (e.g. through customs or the postal service). But they'll probably not care unless you're a big fish. Also, it probably helps that German is mainly spoken in three countries: Germany, Austria, and Switzerland. Some quick googling leaves me with the impression that Austria has similar regulations, and the OP said Switzerland was considering adopting them. I'm guessing all almost all the publishers of quality German-language books are based in one of those countries, and they would probably be unwilling to be associated with a scheme to undermine the regulations.
  - TheCoelacanth 5y ago
    Do you honestly think that PayPal will continue collecting payments from German customers for you if they get a court order from a German court telling them to stop? You might be able to continue selling a small amount to a few Germans who have a bank account in another country or who will pay you in cryptocurrency, but the vast majority of your customers won't go to the trouble.
  - jimkleiber 5y ago
    Various VAT and sales taxes often apply based on where the purchaser is, not where the seller is. So if I sell an ebook from the US to someone in Germany, I believe I'm supposed to retain and remit VAT for Germany. If someone is in France and buys the ebook, I have to retain and remit the French VAT to France, etc. There are some thresholds where if I sell below that, I don't think I have to remit, and those seem to vary at least across Europe, let alone all the US states and other countries. Personally, I believe it's a mess and geographically based governments really don't know how to manage virtually based human interactions and they're just stamping old systems onto new ones. Yet, AFAIK, that's why a B2C seller is supposed to know the physical location of the buyers.
  - Cthulhu_ 5y ago
    PayPal will send relevant records to the German authorities on the regular for tax reasons and transparency. If they violate German and/or EU laws, they will get fined hundreds of millions, if not billions. And lose their licenses. They don't risk that.
- Causality1 5y ago
  Why? If I have a website based in the US and I accept PayPal the worst someone in Germany can do to me is dispute the charge and get a refund. I have no presence in Germany nor will I ever set foot there.
  - TheCoelacanth 5y ago
    That will work until German law enforcement notices and gets PayPal to shut down payments to you from German customers. They won't even work with legal but controversial industries like pornography. They aren't going to stick their neck out for something that is flagrantly illegal.

pacman2 5y ago

Yes, it may have advantages. But every advantage comes with disadvantages. Same with Uber, which is forbidden in Germany. Once you get used to Uber you wonder, how you were you able to ever live without it. Germany is a backward country. Digitization is 3rd world there. Looks, like under Merkel the country has been asleep for two decades. I am not sure they are going to wake up.

taneq 5y ago
Don't you have taxis there? Or are they just terrible (like ours used to be 10 years ago)? I've never used Uber (don't like how invasive the app is) but I do use taxis regularly and since Uber started operating here I've found that the general quality of the taxi service has improved dramatically. Turns out state-sponsored quasi-monopolies aren't that great after all...
hellbannedguy 5y ago
I have noticed Uber pricing is slowly rising. Wait until they put all taxi services out if business, and lobby politicians more heavily than now. They proved money can buy a Proposition.
- andrepd 5y ago
  It's pure dumping. Burn an astounding amount of money on subsidising your product to undercut competitors and on advertising, then once you got the market on your hands jack up the prices.
  - TheTrotters 5y ago
    But that strategy is probably impossible in a market where the cost to entry is fairly low. Suppose Uber drives out literally all cab companies out of the market in some city and rises prices to absurdly high levels. Creating a brand new cab company isn’t that hard. Lease cars, create a decent app, advertise a little and you’re good to go.
    - 5y ago

aurizon 5y ago

Germany does well because there is a fairly low level of unemployment, and unions have board representation = they get ALL the financials = they know when things are good and bad, and by general cross industry co-operation only ask for wage increases when the company can afford it. There have been occasions where wages went down - for the good of the company. Similar to Japanese unions. In addition, the spread between the lowest wages and the average is small by US standards, so even the lower paid people can get by OK. In the USA the unions demand beyond what the companies can afford = the US auto and machine tool business was exported to Taiwan, Japan, Korea and now China - whose quality gets better every year. See what tunnel diggers and crane operators get in New York if you want a shock and an answer to why US subways and highrises cost so much (as well as land costs) and corporate real estate rent extortion = where the next crash will come from as business taxes are applied to corporate rentals for residences.

loonster 5y ago
Sandhogs made an average of $45/hr in NYC. National average appears to be $22. That's high but not crazy. It's a dangerous job that can easy kill your coworkers or ruin millions of dollars worth of work. I personally would not to work with some fucktard making 10/hr if my life will depend on him. Cranes can also kill coworkers and cause millions of dollars in damages. The operators should get a premium.... https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702303936704576399563008284024 https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702303936704576399... $82/hr with 56 hours of overtime a week. Okay that's just excessive union bullshit.
- qxga 5y ago
  > $82/hr with 56 hours of overtime a week. Okay that's just excessive union bullshit. If the company can afford it and still make a profit (which would mean their labor is generating >$82hr in value!), then it's not "bullshit." It's smart moves by the union, and evidence that the higher-ups who don't do dangerous work are/were the ones being absurdly overpaid.

captn3m0 5y ago

Related fact: Germany was one of the last countries to adopt copyright laws, and even then they were pretty lax[0]. Historians believe that this legal situation was one the factors behind the rise in Germany’s industrial prowess. In a way, Germany became a industrial powerhouse because _it had cheap books_. [0]: Arsene Lupin’s adventures with Sherlock Holmes were published as “Herlock Sholmes” everywhere except Germany for eg.

gentleman11 5y ago
It would be an impressive case study but it would take a lot of evidence to prove. My impression was that Germany was an industrial powerhouse because of their fragmented states prior to unification, leading to needing a hard work ethic to get by. They also inherited the holy Roman empires administrative mindset, and had them less diluted than the rest of Europe since the eastern empire lasted centuries longer.
- captn3m0 5y ago
  Here’s the citation that Wikipedia gives: https://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/no-copyright-law-the-real-reason-for-germany-s-industrial-expansion-a-710976.html https://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/no-copyright-... There definitely were a lot of factors, and lax copyright was one of them.
  - Merem 5y ago
    Interestingly enough, it's a rather bad article that goes for framing things in a certain light...like mentioning Prussia's copyright law from 1837 and then going on to say way later: "The market for scientific literature didn't collapse even as copyright law gradually became established in Germany in the 1840s." No precise date there...which is 1845, as I mentioned in another comment, where the "Deutsche Bund" extended their own copyright law which existed beforehand. Prussia's law is insofar worth mentioning as it was really modern and comprehensive for its time....which isn't acknowledged at all in the article. The way they used Prussia's law from 1837, they could have used another state's one where printing businesses had "copyright" (printing privileges) for two years if they used it (as an example), and that started in the late 15th century, instead. Or they could have used the French-style copyright laws introduced in some states in the early 1800s due to the French invasion. Of course, due to the plethora of states and the lack of an encompassing law which the "Deutsche Bund" had to establish first, one could just hop across a border and copy a work, thus rendering the copyright law of a state effectively useless. That's also the reason why I didn't bother mentioning it at all in my other comment but here it's relevant because the article writes: "Germany, on the other hand, didn't bother with the concept of copyright for a long time", right before mentioning Prussia's 1837 law which is just straight up nonsense.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

8bitsrule 5y ago

>mantra that price is everything, and lower is always better than higher. Quality decides what 'better' is, not price. A tool made by a craftsman with much better materials will, itself, be used to create superior results. There are two kinds of book readers in the world, my friend.