4 ms·

To be honest, if I had as spineless officials as some city governments seem to have, I would also quit my job. It is one thing to take public sentiment seriousl

To be honest, if I had as spineless officials as some city governments seem to have, I would also quit my job. It is one thing to take public sentiment seriously, but it can also mean that you tell the public that they are wrong. They can protest that and they can elect someone different. But if you cannot justify the behavior of police, something you are directly responsible for, you have to give up your seat first. I believe that these men now leaving are among the best and principled law enforcement officers. I am not from the US, so my perspective might be wrong.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
pavel_lishin 5y ago
> I believe that these men now leaving are among the best and principled law enforcement officers. An alternative explanation is that under closer scrutiny of the actions of police officers, the ones leaving are the ones who can no longer get away with the abuse of power they have become accustomed to.
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago
  > the ones leaving are the ones who can no longer get away with the abuse of power they have become accustomed to This is a tempting conclusion, which is why I’m cautious about reaching it. Absent evidence, we cannot dismiss the possibility that the ones who are leaving are the good ones. Those with a strong moral core uncomfortable with their peers or sick of being lumped in by the public with them.
  - pavel_lishin 5y ago
    Yeah; it is definitely a tempting conclusion. I don't have any good data one way or the other. I have exactly one data point - one police officer I personally know - and he's not retiring ahead of the plan he's set for himself.
yardie 5y ago
> They can protest that and they can elect someone different. They did exactly that. Some of the officers felt they were no longer being shielded by the political class. The principled LEOs left a long time ago, usually after their rookie year once they realized the police department had no principals. The ones leaving now know the jig is up. The next generation of officers will realize they are taken to task about their decisions and training and will act accordingly.
syops 5y ago
In the U.S. elected officials in a city are not directly responsible for the behavior of police. Often times when council members criticize police the response by police is to withhold or delay services in that member’s district. Police departments have been known to hold cities hostage when the elected officials aren’t supportive enough of the thin blue line.
- Clubber 5y ago
  They have the power of the purse though, which is why some people believe funding, or limitation thereof, is the only viable recourse.
wccrawford 5y ago
As a white male, I have long thought that far too many cops were bullies and abused their power. It helps that my parents are immigrants, and my parents' accents give them away, which leads to cops and even judges doing stupid things to side with the locals instead. I can't even imagine how much worse it is for minorities and in places that are notoriously corrupt. I believe that both good and bad cops are quitting in record numbers right now. Because, as you say, good cops can't abide the situation and also can't do anything about it. But bad cops are finding that their entire livelihood is at stake if they stay, even just counting their past misdeeds. And there's no way they'd stop acting that way. It's who they are and they've gotten away with it for too long to stop themselves.
- bko 5y ago
  > . It helps that my parents are immigrants, and my parents' accents give them away, which leads to cops and even judges doing stupid things to side with the locals instead. Can you expand on the negative experiences your immigrant parents had with police and courts? Stop and frisk or things like that? The minority of people (including Black Americans) don't support less police time in their neighborhoods Preference for Amount of Time Police Spend in Your Area Would you rather the police spend more time, the same amount of time or less time as they currently spend in your area? More time; Same amount of time; Less time; Black Americans 20 61 19 White Americans 17 71 12 Hispanic Americans 24 59 17 Asian Americans 9 63 28 U.S. adults 19 67 14 https://news.gallup.com/poll/316571/black-americans-police-retain-local-presence.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/316571/black-americans-police-r...
  - wccrawford 5y ago
    A cop decided that the guy who let his kid drive the boat wasn't at fault in the accident, but my parents were, despite my parents doing everything right. A judge decided that a huge, old tree wasn't worth anything (when someone else cut it down without asking), and sided against my parents. Those are the 2 things that come to mind immediately. Basically, any interactions that involved my parents and a local were biased towards the locals by cops/judges/etc.
newsclues 5y ago
If the best, most principled people are leaving the job, then won’t the people left doing the job be the worst and least principled? Thus accelerating or concentrating the bad people left on the job.
- steveBK123 5y ago
  Exactly. This struck me similarly as the problem with "defund". I've never seen an organization improved by lowering the average compensation and therefore recruiting standards!
  - syops 5y ago
    I believe the defund crowd wants a dismantling of current policing structures and for new ones to be put in place. Police departments and union contracts within those departments are such that reform is virtually impossible without dismantling/rebuilding.
    - steveBK123 5y ago
      The problem with the defund crowd is they don't actually have a cohesive message of what they want and the branding is terrible, just a political hand grenade for the opposition. It runs the spectrum from "we just mean re-allocate budget toward community policing" to "no, we really do mean abolish police". LOL.
      - syops 5y ago
        The Minneapolis police department is beyond redemption. That department needs to be dismantled and replaced with a new system. In Minneapolis this was the goal with the initial "defund the police" mantra. A better term should be used because it's easy for opponents to use that term to mean something that was not originally intended.
southerntofu 5y ago
> But if you cannot justify the behavior of police, something you are directly responsible for, you have to give up your seat first. If you believe police officers are accountable to pseudo-random elected representatives, you'd like to think again. At best, they're accountable to the Executive power on a nation-wide level, because that's where their guns and money come from. But in many cases, the police is an autonomous force of repression that barely answers to anyone but itself, creating a culture of omerta. And the more you cover things up, the more you get promoted for having shown your loyalty to the structure. Other institutions such as the judicial system are often subordinated to the police ; you can read Michel Foucault on the matter if you're interested. In France more specifically, "our" police force has a history of countless murders and atrocities. After WWII nazi occupation, the police establishment was NOT dismantled/denazified, and the same prefects who oversaw the extermination of jews, communists, homosexuals, tsigans, anarchists, handicapped folks (among others) oversaw bloody repression of the people of Algeria. If you want a more detailed account of that history, you should probably read Mathieu Rigouste (sociologist/historian of the police) or Frantz Fanon (anti-colonial psychiatrist). If simply glazing at facts on Wikipedia is enough, just check out "Vel d'hiv" (1940) and "17 octobre 1961". It's the same police force and the same stadium used to disappear, torture and deport people. > I believe that these men now leaving are among the best and principled law enforcement officers. That is always the case. Those people who join the police force because they want to "help others" are always the first ones to leave, when they realize the police has NEVER EVER been about helping anyone, and is only there to protect the rich and the privileged elites.
NoOneNew 5y ago
Except for damned if you do, damned if you dont situations. Most higher ups in law enforcement act more like wannabe politicians rather than senior LEO that manage and coordinate. If you're on the bottom of the totem pole and you see regular cases of seniority or random outside politicians throwing every officer they can under the bus for virtue signaling votes... I wonder how well that'll work out. Let's add on the policy and public sentiment of defund the police, because it's the cops fault crimes are committed. How's that working out in Seattle and Minneapolis? Do a search on the crime rates of the cities that decided cOpS bAd. Crime rates went up, badly. Look, dont get me wrong, reform is needed. I actually say the prison systems and punishments needs massive, massive reform here. Non-violent criminals should never, ever be held in the same building as violent, but that happens about 60-70% of the time (last I saw, but I think it may have been state specific, this was years ago). I also dont think petty, bullshit crimes should get jail time, but this is a vague statement that requires a large discussion outside of here. Plus, you get asshole cops the same way you get asshole anything. It happens. Dont pretend for a second the academic or tech world is full of angels. We are talking about humans. However, if the "good" cops have a low tolerance for bullshit because they just want to do the civil job they WANT to do, properly... you start to push out the internal checks and balances. Ultimately though, I find it funny how "intelligent" people are so incredibly stupid when it comes to law enforcement. Cops dont make laws. They abide by laws created by legislator politicians. Cops cant argue if a law should be enforced. Only judges and sheriffs can make that call (both are elected positions by the way). However, again, they cant create laws. They work in the spectrum given. The whole checks and balance thing if you paid attention in school. The same politicians who saw "cops bad, shame on them" are the same shit stains that made the law enforcement policy that's hated. Then... they throw the cops under the bus... huh, I wonder why people dont want to be cops once they see how stupid both politicians and the public are on the matter. My honest opinion, as an American that's lived here his whole life, the people fell asleep at the wheel and we are headed for a cliff. It's not the road's fault that there's a turn, it's the driver's fault for not keeping their eyes open. Politicians making bullshit laws for cops to follow then blaming cops for those laws is Biblical level the devil laughing while striking a deal.
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  > Do a search on the crime rates of the cities that decided cOpS bAd. Crime rates went up, badly. It probably shouldn't be surprising that crime went up in a global pandemic and the resulting economic distress. Crime went up all over; I rather suspect Black Lives Matter wasn't responsible for the increase in Billings, Montana, for example, with a black population of 0.8%. https://www.krtv.com/news/crime-and-courts/violent-crime-surged-in-billings-in-2020 https://www.krtv.com/news/crime-and-courts/violent-crime-sur... > Cops cant argue if a law should be enforced. Cops do this all the time. They let people off with warnings, or just let it pass them by. There's immense discretion at the individual cop level on whether crimes should lead to an arrest.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

pavel_lishin 5y ago

> I believe that these men now leaving are among the best and principled law enforcement officers. An alternative explanation is that under closer scrutiny of the actions of police officers, the ones leaving are the ones who can no longer get away with the abuse of power they have become accustomed to.

JumpCrisscross 5y ago
> the ones leaving are the ones who can no longer get away with the abuse of power they have become accustomed to This is a tempting conclusion, which is why I’m cautious about reaching it. Absent evidence, we cannot dismiss the possibility that the ones who are leaving are the good ones. Those with a strong moral core uncomfortable with their peers or sick of being lumped in by the public with them.
- pavel_lishin 5y ago
  Yeah; it is definitely a tempting conclusion. I don't have any good data one way or the other. I have exactly one data point - one police officer I personally know - and he's not retiring ahead of the plan he's set for himself.

yardie 5y ago

> They can protest that and they can elect someone different. They did exactly that. Some of the officers felt they were no longer being shielded by the political class. The principled LEOs left a long time ago, usually after their rookie year once they realized the police department had no principals. The ones leaving now know the jig is up. The next generation of officers will realize they are taken to task about their decisions and training and will act accordingly.

syops 5y ago

In the U.S. elected officials in a city are not directly responsible for the behavior of police. Often times when council members criticize police the response by police is to withhold or delay services in that member’s district. Police departments have been known to hold cities hostage when the elected officials aren’t supportive enough of the thin blue line.

Clubber 5y ago
They have the power of the purse though, which is why some people believe funding, or limitation thereof, is the only viable recourse.

wccrawford 5y ago

As a white male, I have long thought that far too many cops were bullies and abused their power. It helps that my parents are immigrants, and my parents' accents give them away, which leads to cops and even judges doing stupid things to side with the locals instead. I can't even imagine how much worse it is for minorities and in places that are notoriously corrupt. I believe that both good and bad cops are quitting in record numbers right now. Because, as you say, good cops can't abide the situation and also can't do anything about it. But bad cops are finding that their entire livelihood is at stake if they stay, even just counting their past misdeeds. And there's no way they'd stop acting that way. It's who they are and they've gotten away with it for too long to stop themselves.

bko 5y ago
> . It helps that my parents are immigrants, and my parents' accents give them away, which leads to cops and even judges doing stupid things to side with the locals instead. Can you expand on the negative experiences your immigrant parents had with police and courts? Stop and frisk or things like that? The minority of people (including Black Americans) don't support less police time in their neighborhoods Preference for Amount of Time Police Spend in Your Area Would you rather the police spend more time, the same amount of time or less time as they currently spend in your area? More time; Same amount of time; Less time; Black Americans 20 61 19 White Americans 17 71 12 Hispanic Americans 24 59 17 Asian Americans 9 63 28 U.S. adults 19 67 14 https://news.gallup.com/poll/316571/black-americans-police-retain-local-presence.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/316571/black-americans-police-r...
- wccrawford 5y ago
  A cop decided that the guy who let his kid drive the boat wasn't at fault in the accident, but my parents were, despite my parents doing everything right. A judge decided that a huge, old tree wasn't worth anything (when someone else cut it down without asking), and sided against my parents. Those are the 2 things that come to mind immediately. Basically, any interactions that involved my parents and a local were biased towards the locals by cops/judges/etc.

newsclues 5y ago

If the best, most principled people are leaving the job, then won’t the people left doing the job be the worst and least principled? Thus accelerating or concentrating the bad people left on the job.

steveBK123 5y ago
Exactly. This struck me similarly as the problem with "defund". I've never seen an organization improved by lowering the average compensation and therefore recruiting standards!
- syops 5y ago
  I believe the defund crowd wants a dismantling of current policing structures and for new ones to be put in place. Police departments and union contracts within those departments are such that reform is virtually impossible without dismantling/rebuilding.
  - steveBK123 5y ago
    The problem with the defund crowd is they don't actually have a cohesive message of what they want and the branding is terrible, just a political hand grenade for the opposition. It runs the spectrum from "we just mean re-allocate budget toward community policing" to "no, we really do mean abolish police". LOL.
    - syops 5y ago
      The Minneapolis police department is beyond redemption. That department needs to be dismantled and replaced with a new system. In Minneapolis this was the goal with the initial "defund the police" mantra. A better term should be used because it's easy for opponents to use that term to mean something that was not originally intended.

southerntofu 5y ago

> But if you cannot justify the behavior of police, something you are directly responsible for, you have to give up your seat first. If you believe police officers are accountable to pseudo-random elected representatives, you'd like to think again. At best, they're accountable to the Executive power on a nation-wide level, because that's where their guns and money come from. But in many cases, the police is an autonomous force of repression that barely answers to anyone but itself, creating a culture of omerta. And the more you cover things up, the more you get promoted for having shown your loyalty to the structure. Other institutions such as the judicial system are often subordinated to the police ; you can read Michel Foucault on the matter if you're interested. In France more specifically, "our" police force has a history of countless murders and atrocities. After WWII nazi occupation, the police establishment was NOT dismantled/denazified, and the same prefects who oversaw the extermination of jews, communists, homosexuals, tsigans, anarchists, handicapped folks (among others) oversaw bloody repression of the people of Algeria. If you want a more detailed account of that history, you should probably read Mathieu Rigouste (sociologist/historian of the police) or Frantz Fanon (anti-colonial psychiatrist). If simply glazing at facts on Wikipedia is enough, just check out "Vel d'hiv" (1940) and "17 octobre 1961". It's the same police force and the same stadium used to disappear, torture and deport people. > I believe that these men now leaving are among the best and principled law enforcement officers. That is always the case. Those people who join the police force because they want to "help others" are always the first ones to leave, when they realize the police has NEVER EVER been about helping anyone, and is only there to protect the rich and the privileged elites.

NoOneNew 5y ago

Except for damned if you do, damned if you dont situations. Most higher ups in law enforcement act more like wannabe politicians rather than senior LEO that manage and coordinate. If you're on the bottom of the totem pole and you see regular cases of seniority or random outside politicians throwing every officer they can under the bus for virtue signaling votes... I wonder how well that'll work out. Let's add on the policy and public sentiment of defund the police, because it's the cops fault crimes are committed. How's that working out in Seattle and Minneapolis? Do a search on the crime rates of the cities that decided cOpS bAd. Crime rates went up, badly. Look, dont get me wrong, reform is needed. I actually say the prison systems and punishments needs massive, massive reform here. Non-violent criminals should never, ever be held in the same building as violent, but that happens about 60-70% of the time (last I saw, but I think it may have been state specific, this was years ago). I also dont think petty, bullshit crimes should get jail time, but this is a vague statement that requires a large discussion outside of here. Plus, you get asshole cops the same way you get asshole anything. It happens. Dont pretend for a second the academic or tech world is full of angels. We are talking about humans. However, if the "good" cops have a low tolerance for bullshit because they just want to do the civil job they WANT to do, properly... you start to push out the internal checks and balances. Ultimately though, I find it funny how "intelligent" people are so incredibly stupid when it comes to law enforcement. Cops dont make laws. They abide by laws created by legislator politicians. Cops cant argue if a law should be enforced. Only judges and sheriffs can make that call (both are elected positions by the way). However, again, they cant create laws. They work in the spectrum given. The whole checks and balance thing if you paid attention in school. The same politicians who saw "cops bad, shame on them" are the same shit stains that made the law enforcement policy that's hated. Then... they throw the cops under the bus... huh, I wonder why people dont want to be cops once they see how stupid both politicians and the public are on the matter. My honest opinion, as an American that's lived here his whole life, the people fell asleep at the wheel and we are headed for a cliff. It's not the road's fault that there's a turn, it's the driver's fault for not keeping their eyes open. Politicians making bullshit laws for cops to follow then blaming cops for those laws is Biblical level the devil laughing while striking a deal.

ceejayoz 5y ago
> Do a search on the crime rates of the cities that decided cOpS bAd. Crime rates went up, badly. It probably shouldn't be surprising that crime went up in a global pandemic and the resulting economic distress. Crime went up all over; I rather suspect Black Lives Matter wasn't responsible for the increase in Billings, Montana, for example, with a black population of 0.8%. https://www.krtv.com/news/crime-and-courts/violent-crime-surged-in-billings-in-2020 https://www.krtv.com/news/crime-and-courts/violent-crime-sur... > Cops cant argue if a law should be enforced. Cops do this all the time. They let people off with warnings, or just let it pass them by. There's immense discretion at the individual cop level on whether crimes should lead to an arrest.