5 ms·

I've worked remotely for over 8 years as a senior software engineer, and I'm not going back anytime soon. This will get interesting for both salaries and globa

I've worked remotely for over 8 years as a senior software engineer, and I'm not going back anytime soon. This will get interesting for both salaries and global movement. Being a digital nomad certainly won't be as "hip" when everyone else can do the same thing. And now people are going to be competing with a lot of low-cost employees with equal skills. This has already been the issue with offshoring, but now you can hire someone in Fargo, SD instead of San Fran, CA and pay them going market rate. For the same skills. In the long-term, this might get people out of packed cities and horrific commutes and help become a rebirth of small-town America (or small-town Chile and everywhere else).

elevenoh 5y ago
>In the long-term, this might get people out of packed cities and horrific commutes and help become a rebirth of small-town America (or small-town Chile and everywhere else). Perhaps. I think the shift will be to more healthy-livable cities, whether thats big or small. Vast majority of humans seem love the benefits of high population density more than they dislike the costs, remote work or not.
- EMM_386 5y ago
  > Vast majority of humans seem love the benefits of high population density more than they dislike the costs, remote work or not. Over these 8 years I've lived everywhere from NYC to small town America and other countries in AirBnbs. They each have their benefits, they are just different. If you have a family, small towns can be amazing. Good school districts, tight-nit communities, great charitable events to participate in. Of course you can find that in NYC but it's a completely different scenario and vibe. It comes down to what works for the individual, which is perfect and exactly where we need to be moving to.
  - elevenoh 5y ago
    Agree. More people should try out different living contexts to find which tradeoff matrix works best for them. I'm now in Vancouver BC, quite a high population density, yet I find it's super easy to remain healthy & happy (air quality, access to nature, safety etc.).
    - lotsofpulp 5y ago
      Vancouver BC is quite an outlier in those qualities, which is reflected in its land prices.
      - elevenoh 5y ago
        That's for sure. The urban planning here really turned out well.
  - handrous 5y ago
    > If you have a family, small towns can be amazing. Good school districts Your definition of "small town" must be different than mine, or small towns in your area are a hell of a lot nicer than ours. Or maybe you mean suburban/exurban towns? Those are the only "small towns" with good public schools, around here. Cities (as in, actually in the city proper)? Bad schools. Rural small towns? Bad schools. Smallish cities? Bad schools. There's a belt of good schools in (some of!) the suburban and exurban towns around the major cities, and that's it. Few or none of those towns have the other characteristics you mention, because they're basically bedroom communities for the city they're attached to, with some lame chain retail and fast-food and you go to the city for anything that's actually worth doing.
  - thehappypm 5y ago
    I've always dreamed of packing up and moving to the mountains (the Whites, or the Rockies, or the Sierras) but I've always been held back by 3 major factors. First, most rural communities don't have very good educational infrastructure. Second, moving somewhere with no social scene as an adult means you'll be spending a long time with no or few friends. Third, the cost and time sink of traveling back home to visit family for holidays, baptisms, etc.
matheweis 5y ago
I think that time zone bands will temper this somewhat. It’s a lot easier to work with people on the same schedule than trying coordinate with people/teams that are +/- 3 time zones away.
- EMM_386 5y ago
  I agree. I'm currently managing a team of offshore developers +11 from me on top of being the lead developer. It's chaotic but members of the team adjust their schedule to partially overlap so it works, for the most part. But I agree. We are a US company and we originally looked at South American companies to try to keep people around the same timezone. I was not involved in the final decision, which apparently came down strictly to financials.
- asdff 5y ago
  It's actually not that bad. Regular meetings between global teams can be scheduled as any others are. People working internationally with people in the U.S. are already used to taking evening conference calls around convenient U.S. based meeting times. For east and west coast teams, in my experience they usually just adopt east coast hours, which the west coast people prefer because this means they avoid traffic entirely.
- thehappypm 5y ago
  3 time zones is a pain, and 4+ is a nightmare. I can definitely see a lot of people telecommuting from "nearby" (Vermont to NYC for example) but Hanoi to San Francisco is just too much.
ISO-morphism 5y ago
Nit: I think you meant Fargo, ND rather than Fargo, SD. For local market rate, [1] seems to match anecdata with new grads being 50-70k. MSFT is largely responsible for anything above that. [1] https://www.salary.com/research/salary/benchmark/software-engineer-i-salary/fargo-nd https://www.salary.com/research/salary/benchmark/software-en...
- dcolkitt 5y ago
  You can’t really just compare average salaries in different metros, because there’s major selection bias. The average engineer in South Dakota is not the same as one in San Francisco. Less talented workers tend to heavily flow towards low COL markets, because they’re less to achieve a high enough productivity differential to justify the high cost. This obviously isn’t true for every single case. But the typical engineer at a sleepy regional bank is nowhere near talented enough to make it at a fast-paced, hyper-growth venture backed startup.
  - kasey_junk 5y ago
    Having worked in everything from backend systems for sleepy banks to hedge funds to the hottest pre-IPO valley darlings, anecdotally you are dead wrong. If there is any correlation at all it’s that the venture backed startups have a lower than average skill level.
    - lotsofpulp 5y ago
      It is amazing that these lower than average skill level people make companies that earn the highest profits, and have the highest wages.
      - ajkjk 5y ago
        What's amazing about it? Perhaps they are trying a lot harder.
        5y ago

elevenoh 5y ago

>In the long-term, this might get people out of packed cities and horrific commutes and help become a rebirth of small-town America (or small-town Chile and everywhere else). Perhaps. I think the shift will be to more healthy-livable cities, whether thats big or small. Vast majority of humans seem love the benefits of high population density more than they dislike the costs, remote work or not.

EMM_386 5y ago
> Vast majority of humans seem love the benefits of high population density more than they dislike the costs, remote work or not. Over these 8 years I've lived everywhere from NYC to small town America and other countries in AirBnbs. They each have their benefits, they are just different. If you have a family, small towns can be amazing. Good school districts, tight-nit communities, great charitable events to participate in. Of course you can find that in NYC but it's a completely different scenario and vibe. It comes down to what works for the individual, which is perfect and exactly where we need to be moving to.
- elevenoh 5y ago
  Agree. More people should try out different living contexts to find which tradeoff matrix works best for them. I'm now in Vancouver BC, quite a high population density, yet I find it's super easy to remain healthy & happy (air quality, access to nature, safety etc.).
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    Vancouver BC is quite an outlier in those qualities, which is reflected in its land prices.
    - elevenoh 5y ago
      That's for sure. The urban planning here really turned out well.
- handrous 5y ago
  > If you have a family, small towns can be amazing. Good school districts Your definition of "small town" must be different than mine, or small towns in your area are a hell of a lot nicer than ours. Or maybe you mean suburban/exurban towns? Those are the only "small towns" with good public schools, around here. Cities (as in, actually in the city proper)? Bad schools. Rural small towns? Bad schools. Smallish cities? Bad schools. There's a belt of good schools in (some of!) the suburban and exurban towns around the major cities, and that's it. Few or none of those towns have the other characteristics you mention, because they're basically bedroom communities for the city they're attached to, with some lame chain retail and fast-food and you go to the city for anything that's actually worth doing.
- thehappypm 5y ago
  I've always dreamed of packing up and moving to the mountains (the Whites, or the Rockies, or the Sierras) but I've always been held back by 3 major factors. First, most rural communities don't have very good educational infrastructure. Second, moving somewhere with no social scene as an adult means you'll be spending a long time with no or few friends. Third, the cost and time sink of traveling back home to visit family for holidays, baptisms, etc.

matheweis 5y ago

I think that time zone bands will temper this somewhat. It’s a lot easier to work with people on the same schedule than trying coordinate with people/teams that are +/- 3 time zones away.

EMM_386 5y ago
I agree. I'm currently managing a team of offshore developers +11 from me on top of being the lead developer. It's chaotic but members of the team adjust their schedule to partially overlap so it works, for the most part. But I agree. We are a US company and we originally looked at South American companies to try to keep people around the same timezone. I was not involved in the final decision, which apparently came down strictly to financials.
asdff 5y ago
It's actually not that bad. Regular meetings between global teams can be scheduled as any others are. People working internationally with people in the U.S. are already used to taking evening conference calls around convenient U.S. based meeting times. For east and west coast teams, in my experience they usually just adopt east coast hours, which the west coast people prefer because this means they avoid traffic entirely.
thehappypm 5y ago
3 time zones is a pain, and 4+ is a nightmare. I can definitely see a lot of people telecommuting from "nearby" (Vermont to NYC for example) but Hanoi to San Francisco is just too much.

ISO-morphism 5y ago

Nit: I think you meant Fargo, ND rather than Fargo, SD. For local market rate, [1] seems to match anecdata with new grads being 50-70k. MSFT is largely responsible for anything above that. [1] https://www.salary.com/research/salary/benchmark/software-engineer-i-salary/fargo-nd https://www.salary.com/research/salary/benchmark/software-en...

dcolkitt 5y ago
You can’t really just compare average salaries in different metros, because there’s major selection bias. The average engineer in South Dakota is not the same as one in San Francisco. Less talented workers tend to heavily flow towards low COL markets, because they’re less to achieve a high enough productivity differential to justify the high cost. This obviously isn’t true for every single case. But the typical engineer at a sleepy regional bank is nowhere near talented enough to make it at a fast-paced, hyper-growth venture backed startup.
- kasey_junk 5y ago
  Having worked in everything from backend systems for sleepy banks to hedge funds to the hottest pre-IPO valley darlings, anecdotally you are dead wrong. If there is any correlation at all it’s that the venture backed startups have a lower than average skill level.
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    It is amazing that these lower than average skill level people make companies that earn the highest profits, and have the highest wages.
    - ajkjk 5y ago
      What's amazing about it? Perhaps they are trying a lot harder.
      - 5y ago