6 ms·

Look at it this way, if Bitcoin/crypto fails, then you have nothing to worry about, since they'll just go away and there will be no environmental concerns. In t

Look at it this way, if Bitcoin/crypto fails, then you have nothing to worry about, since they'll just go away and there will be no environmental concerns. In this scenario, you lose the 1% you invested. If they succeed on the other hand at becoming world reserve currency, then that energy usage will be justified since it's replacing something that takes even more energy (current fiat system). In this scenario, your 1% investment has probably grown to be a much larger % of your portfolio.

im_down_w_otp 5y ago
I've never seen an energy consumption breakdown of what it takes to run the branches of the Federal Reserve or the Treasury. Do you have any primary source material on that?
- gwicks56 5y ago
  The USA dollar is the settlement currency of the world. Which means you are really looking at the energy use of the Army/Navy/Air-force. If, in this hypothetical future, BTC became the settlement record.
  - ramchip 5y ago
    I don't follow this reasoning - why would moving to BTC as a global settlement currency make armed forces obsolete?
  - wwweston 5y ago
    If you assume: (a) the energy of the Army/Navy/Air-force supports nothing other than US currency (b) no force would be necessary to back compliance with entries in a crypto ledger
  - jayd16 5y ago
    As if BTC would somehow eliminate the army, navy and air-force.
- FpUser 5y ago
  War in Libya was initiated to prevent erosion of the US dollar as a world reserve currency among the other things. You are free to calculate how much energy went into it. I am sure there are more big energy consuming "contributions" in facilitating current financial system.
analog31 5y ago
In my view, the energy cost of crypto is on top of the cost of the mainstream system. The mainstream system is what supports great ventures such as widespread energy distribution, manufacturing of computers, telecommunications, international shipping, and so forth. And it provides the goods and services that are worth spending bitcoins on. Note I've had similar debates with my kids: "Why don't we just replace the entire economy and political system with X?"
tablespoon 5y ago
> then that energy usage will be justified since it's replacing something that takes even more energy (current fiat system). I really doubt that, at least with proof-of-work cryptocurrencies, since a competitive waste of resources is at the very core of their design (e.g. he who can waste the most, wins). The equivalent part of the fiat network is far more efficient (e.g. a basic money transfer probably takes as much power as a couple of HTTPS web requests to a dynamic website).
- louloulou 5y ago
  Conveniently ignoring how the exponentially increasing fiat supply incentivises pulling forward consumption from the future to be spent on unnecessary things today. Thereby massively misallocating investment in the world simply because people don't have a sound money which they can save for the future.
  - tablespoon 5y ago
    > Conveniently ignoring how the exponentially increasing fiat supply incentivises pulling forward consumption from the future to be spent on unnecessary things today. Isn't that called keeping the economy going? There are people and physical capital that need something to do today. You can't save today's time for tomorrow, no matter what kind of money you have. > Thereby massively misallocating investment in the world simply because people don't have a sound money which they can save for the future. That sounds a lot like a depression, which probably wouldn't be too painful of an experience to the few people sitting on hoards of money, waiting for the choicest investment opportunities. Everyone else on the other hand...
    - imtringued 5y ago
      >Isn't that called keeping the economy going? There are people and physical capital that need something to do today. You can't save today's time for tomorrow, no matter what kind of money you have. Yes, saving is impossible. The shiny gold rock doesn't wither. It will be long there after your death. A shiny rock isn't meaningfully different from fiat either. It's just a token that represents an entry in a ledger. That rock represents that someone else owes you a debt but that debt continues to exist after your death. The only way that debt can be repaid is if someone completely unrelated is born in the future and works to repay the debt of a long dead person. This can't work because that person also has to work for himself to pay for food and shelter. The only reason it works today is because population and productivity growth has exploded and can take care of that debt and even pay above and beyond the original debt. The reason why fiat rots (inflation) is that the rest of the world rots as well. Gold is the exception, it doesn't rot, therefore it lets you pretend that the rest of the world doesn't rot.

im_down_w_otp 5y ago

I've never seen an energy consumption breakdown of what it takes to run the branches of the Federal Reserve or the Treasury. Do you have any primary source material on that?

gwicks56 5y ago
The USA dollar is the settlement currency of the world. Which means you are really looking at the energy use of the Army/Navy/Air-force. If, in this hypothetical future, BTC became the settlement record.
- ramchip 5y ago
  I don't follow this reasoning - why would moving to BTC as a global settlement currency make armed forces obsolete?
- wwweston 5y ago
  If you assume: (a) the energy of the Army/Navy/Air-force supports nothing other than US currency (b) no force would be necessary to back compliance with entries in a crypto ledger
- jayd16 5y ago
  As if BTC would somehow eliminate the army, navy and air-force.
FpUser 5y ago
War in Libya was initiated to prevent erosion of the US dollar as a world reserve currency among the other things. You are free to calculate how much energy went into it. I am sure there are more big energy consuming "contributions" in facilitating current financial system.

analog31 5y ago

In my view, the energy cost of crypto is on top of the cost of the mainstream system. The mainstream system is what supports great ventures such as widespread energy distribution, manufacturing of computers, telecommunications, international shipping, and so forth. And it provides the goods and services that are worth spending bitcoins on. Note I've had similar debates with my kids: "Why don't we just replace the entire economy and political system with X?"

tablespoon 5y ago

> then that energy usage will be justified since it's replacing something that takes even more energy (current fiat system). I really doubt that, at least with proof-of-work cryptocurrencies, since a competitive waste of resources is at the very core of their design (e.g. he who can waste the most, wins). The equivalent part of the fiat network is far more efficient (e.g. a basic money transfer probably takes as much power as a couple of HTTPS web requests to a dynamic website).

louloulou 5y ago
Conveniently ignoring how the exponentially increasing fiat supply incentivises pulling forward consumption from the future to be spent on unnecessary things today. Thereby massively misallocating investment in the world simply because people don't have a sound money which they can save for the future.
- tablespoon 5y ago
  > Conveniently ignoring how the exponentially increasing fiat supply incentivises pulling forward consumption from the future to be spent on unnecessary things today. Isn't that called keeping the economy going? There are people and physical capital that need something to do today. You can't save today's time for tomorrow, no matter what kind of money you have. > Thereby massively misallocating investment in the world simply because people don't have a sound money which they can save for the future. That sounds a lot like a depression, which probably wouldn't be too painful of an experience to the few people sitting on hoards of money, waiting for the choicest investment opportunities. Everyone else on the other hand...
  - imtringued 5y ago
    >Isn't that called keeping the economy going? There are people and physical capital that need something to do today. You can't save today's time for tomorrow, no matter what kind of money you have. Yes, saving is impossible. The shiny gold rock doesn't wither. It will be long there after your death. A shiny rock isn't meaningfully different from fiat either. It's just a token that represents an entry in a ledger. That rock represents that someone else owes you a debt but that debt continues to exist after your death. The only way that debt can be repaid is if someone completely unrelated is born in the future and works to repay the debt of a long dead person. This can't work because that person also has to work for himself to pay for food and shelter. The only reason it works today is because population and productivity growth has exploded and can take care of that debt and even pay above and beyond the original debt. The reason why fiat rots (inflation) is that the rest of the world rots as well. Gold is the exception, it doesn't rot, therefore it lets you pretend that the rest of the world doesn't rot.