4 ms·

Telling doctors to not randomly experiment on their patients outside of a controlled studies seems perfectly reasonable. Most medical groups tend to view uncont

Telling doctors to not randomly experiment on their patients outside of a controlled studies seems perfectly reasonable. Most medical groups tend to view uncontrolled human experimentation as very unethical and have for a long time.

varispeed 5y ago
What would you say about doctors prescribing e.g. random SSRI?
- marcinzm 5y ago
  Prescribing for what? Prozac, for example, is on-label approved for depression, ocd, panic disorder, bulimia and bipolar. I do believe doctors use too many medications off-label although I acknowledge that FDA on-label approval can be a large barrier.
  - varispeed 5y ago
    SSRI off-label for chronic pain. Many drugs routinely prescribed have or had unknown mechanism of action (prime example Acetaminophen (Tylenol)). Here we have no double blind trials for vaccines, no long term effect studies and every doctor is happy to jab everyone including kids.
cm2187 5y ago
Thanks god doctors don't wait to have a random double blind experiment peer reviewed and published to act. I understand the practice of putting ICU patients on ventilators was found to be more harmful and following word of mouth, ICU specialists switched to less invasive care. Was that unethical?
- marcinzm 5y ago
  The person I responded to alluded to a conspiracy while I simply pointed out that this seems standard guidance from medical groups. Which is a separate topic from it being good or bad for patients.
hellbannedguy 5y ago
It's a weird line. Most doctors don't bother treating a patient with anything other than standard care procedures. Why--I honesty believe most don't care enough to look beyond the usual treatment. 8 minutes per patient, collect the most money from the out of the patient, and insurance company. Do not say or do anything than might bring a lawsuit. Write a script, or recommend a Nettie Pot. (I still think about a guy here whom paid $450 out of packet for a sinus infection, and was told to buy a nettie pot. Nothing wrong with not doing anything though. It was the price of the office visit.) Determine if you can get the patent in for another pricey office visit. Repeat. Go back to writing that vanity novel, or checking the stock market. (This has been my experience. They have about 50 drugs they commonly use, and when things get complicated, they refer, or claim it might be psychosomatic?) There's always a risk of a lawsuit too. Then there are doctors whom sometimes prescribe off label for a condition, or honestly try to keep current. I appreciate those doctors.
nradov 5y ago
Medicine isn't an exact science. In the real world physicians conduct n=1 experiments on their patients all the time. They try a treatment and if the patient doesn't respond then they try something else. Decisions are often based on clinical experience and intuition rather than defined protocols.
lawnchair_larry 5y ago
Nobody is talking about randomly experimenting on patients, so this is a disingenuous attempt at reframing.
fitzie 5y ago
the question I would ask is when a new virus caused a pandemic, would you want the medical/healthcare system to test existing drugs for suitability? if some drugs are know to treat various pathogens and have a well established safety record shouldn't we allow any doctor to experiment using their experience and informed consent? waiting for a properly run study will cost lived especially when there are corporate and political interests controlling these tests. it would have been easy to run dozens of prophylactic studies while this virus was running rampant. same for testing the dozens of clinical sourced protocols. instead the medical testing establishment shutdown and ignore all clinical protocols that were successful used, and put the message out so that medical journals, big tech, pharmacy boards, hospitals, suppressed more discussion and application of these protocols.

varispeed 5y ago

What would you say about doctors prescribing e.g. random SSRI?

marcinzm 5y ago
Prescribing for what? Prozac, for example, is on-label approved for depression, ocd, panic disorder, bulimia and bipolar. I do believe doctors use too many medications off-label although I acknowledge that FDA on-label approval can be a large barrier.
- varispeed 5y ago
  SSRI off-label for chronic pain. Many drugs routinely prescribed have or had unknown mechanism of action (prime example Acetaminophen (Tylenol)). Here we have no double blind trials for vaccines, no long term effect studies and every doctor is happy to jab everyone including kids.

cm2187 5y ago

Thanks god doctors don't wait to have a random double blind experiment peer reviewed and published to act. I understand the practice of putting ICU patients on ventilators was found to be more harmful and following word of mouth, ICU specialists switched to less invasive care. Was that unethical?

marcinzm 5y ago
The person I responded to alluded to a conspiracy while I simply pointed out that this seems standard guidance from medical groups. Which is a separate topic from it being good or bad for patients.

hellbannedguy 5y ago

It's a weird line. Most doctors don't bother treating a patient with anything other than standard care procedures. Why--I honesty believe most don't care enough to look beyond the usual treatment. 8 minutes per patient, collect the most money from the out of the patient, and insurance company. Do not say or do anything than might bring a lawsuit. Write a script, or recommend a Nettie Pot. (I still think about a guy here whom paid $450 out of packet for a sinus infection, and was told to buy a nettie pot. Nothing wrong with not doing anything though. It was the price of the office visit.) Determine if you can get the patent in for another pricey office visit. Repeat. Go back to writing that vanity novel, or checking the stock market. (This has been my experience. They have about 50 drugs they commonly use, and when things get complicated, they refer, or claim it might be psychosomatic?) There's always a risk of a lawsuit too. Then there are doctors whom sometimes prescribe off label for a condition, or honestly try to keep current. I appreciate those doctors.

nradov 5y ago

Medicine isn't an exact science. In the real world physicians conduct n=1 experiments on their patients all the time. They try a treatment and if the patient doesn't respond then they try something else. Decisions are often based on clinical experience and intuition rather than defined protocols.

lawnchair_larry 5y ago

Nobody is talking about randomly experimenting on patients, so this is a disingenuous attempt at reframing.

fitzie 5y ago

the question I would ask is when a new virus caused a pandemic, would you want the medical/healthcare system to test existing drugs for suitability? if some drugs are know to treat various pathogens and have a well established safety record shouldn't we allow any doctor to experiment using their experience and informed consent? waiting for a properly run study will cost lived especially when there are corporate and political interests controlling these tests. it would have been easy to run dozens of prophylactic studies while this virus was running rampant. same for testing the dozens of clinical sourced protocols. instead the medical testing establishment shutdown and ignore all clinical protocols that were successful used, and put the message out so that medical journals, big tech, pharmacy boards, hospitals, suppressed more discussion and application of these protocols.