5 ms·

I see this argument often and it is pretty ridiculous. Israel is still the beneficiary of billions of dollars worth of US taxpayer dollars every year. We should

I see this argument often and it is pretty ridiculous. Israel is still the beneficiary of billions of dollars worth of US taxpayer dollars every year. We shouldn't be spending that kind of money on your nations security when we have homeless and starving Americans not being taken care of.

xander158 5y ago
Since Israel has to spend the money on US hardware, that money actually goes to maintain Jobs in the US military industry.
- 34679 5y ago
  Maybe giving away killing machines isn't the best way to stimulate the economy.
- philjackson 5y ago
  > Since Israel has to spend the money on US hardware, that money actually goes to maintain Jobs in the US military industry. What a shitty cycle.
  - shrimp_emoji 5y ago
    Yes, a shitty cycle in a shitty world. If not for the threat of China, I don't think the U.S. military industrial complex would have as much merit, but, under that (growing) threat, I think anyone who values freedom, democracy, and progressive ideals should see merit in the U.S. maintaining and growing capability. To do that, it seems like the defense industry needs "stuff to do". Like a muscle, that sector atrophies if left unused. It's counterintuitive, though -- why spend so much money on a glorified Skunk Works project like the F35? Why double down and start producing hundreds of them despite their issues? Because it generates/maintains experience and lessons and keeps the metabolic pathways that turn material into materiel active. If you skipped the extra steps and had the government just sustain the defense industry on welfare while it does nothing right up until we have a massive conflict, things are going to go much more poorly for you.
    - pan69 5y ago
      > If not for the threat of China... The military industrial complex will always have a bogeyman ready.
      - skinkestek 5y ago
        Well, some of them like Hitler and present day CCP are more wrll suited than others.
    - nostromo 5y ago
      We can spend that money directly on our military. There's no need to funnel it through Israel, which gains more of the benefit than we do.
- xmprt 5y ago
  How much of those jobs in the US military industry is going to people who need food, water, and/or shelter?
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago
  > Since Israel has to spend the money on US hardware, that money actually goes to maintain Jobs in the US military industry Israel is also a gem of technological innovation. We probably get the public spending back in NYSE listing fees and trading profits alone.
- Ar-Curunir 5y ago
  > US military industry. What a completely depressing world
shrimp_emoji 5y ago
It's also the security of the only enclave of gay rights and feminism in one of the most barbarously anti-progressive regions in the world. Whether or not that adds incentive is subjective, but framing it like paying for just "a nation's security" sounds like propping up Luxembourg's independence from France and Germany. American problems at home are bad though. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Not_as_bad_as https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Not_as_bad_as
- nostromo 5y ago
  Israel is not unique in this regard. Lots of US allies live with hostile neighbors and poor human rights records. Besides, Israel's support for gay rights and feminism is hardly universal. Spend some time in an orthodox neighborhood if you don't believe me.
  - skinkestek 5y ago
    > Besides, Israel's support for gay rights and feminism is hardly universal. Spend some time in an orthodox neighborhood if you don't believe me. I think you are kicking in open doors here. But unlike a few kilometers away it won't get you kicked from a rooftop, it will only get you angry looks.
yosefk 5y ago
Very possibly you don't want the US to be an empire and to spend money on the "security" of Israel (eg preventing us from developing fighter jets - for our own security, no doubt) or eg Germany which can't even give asylum to Snowden who broke the news that your intel agencies eavesdrop on their Chancellor's phone. Just don't blame the vassals. Raise this point with the imperial government. You're a voting subject, maybe you can pull it off. (It could be that for the US taxpayer the empire is a good deal. eg could you print all those dollars and get the entire world to hold them without the empire? You get a nice windfall from this. But again it's between you and your government. Maybe if you called yourself an empire, it would enable more open and productive discussions wrt cost/benefit analysis per vassal state.)

xander158 5y ago

Since Israel has to spend the money on US hardware, that money actually goes to maintain Jobs in the US military industry.

34679 5y ago
Maybe giving away killing machines isn't the best way to stimulate the economy.
philjackson 5y ago
> Since Israel has to spend the money on US hardware, that money actually goes to maintain Jobs in the US military industry. What a shitty cycle.
- shrimp_emoji 5y ago
  Yes, a shitty cycle in a shitty world. If not for the threat of China, I don't think the U.S. military industrial complex would have as much merit, but, under that (growing) threat, I think anyone who values freedom, democracy, and progressive ideals should see merit in the U.S. maintaining and growing capability. To do that, it seems like the defense industry needs "stuff to do". Like a muscle, that sector atrophies if left unused. It's counterintuitive, though -- why spend so much money on a glorified Skunk Works project like the F35? Why double down and start producing hundreds of them despite their issues? Because it generates/maintains experience and lessons and keeps the metabolic pathways that turn material into materiel active. If you skipped the extra steps and had the government just sustain the defense industry on welfare while it does nothing right up until we have a massive conflict, things are going to go much more poorly for you.
  - pan69 5y ago
    > If not for the threat of China... The military industrial complex will always have a bogeyman ready.
    - skinkestek 5y ago
      Well, some of them like Hitler and present day CCP are more wrll suited than others.
  - nostromo 5y ago
    We can spend that money directly on our military. There's no need to funnel it through Israel, which gains more of the benefit than we do.
xmprt 5y ago
How much of those jobs in the US military industry is going to people who need food, water, and/or shelter?
JumpCrisscross 5y ago
> Since Israel has to spend the money on US hardware, that money actually goes to maintain Jobs in the US military industry Israel is also a gem of technological innovation. We probably get the public spending back in NYSE listing fees and trading profits alone.
Ar-Curunir 5y ago
> US military industry. What a completely depressing world

shrimp_emoji 5y ago

It's also the security of the only enclave of gay rights and feminism in one of the most barbarously anti-progressive regions in the world. Whether or not that adds incentive is subjective, but framing it like paying for just "a nation's security" sounds like propping up Luxembourg's independence from France and Germany. American problems at home are bad though. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Not_as_bad_as https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Not_as_bad_as

nostromo 5y ago
Israel is not unique in this regard. Lots of US allies live with hostile neighbors and poor human rights records. Besides, Israel's support for gay rights and feminism is hardly universal. Spend some time in an orthodox neighborhood if you don't believe me.
- skinkestek 5y ago
  > Besides, Israel's support for gay rights and feminism is hardly universal. Spend some time in an orthodox neighborhood if you don't believe me. I think you are kicking in open doors here. But unlike a few kilometers away it won't get you kicked from a rooftop, it will only get you angry looks.

yosefk 5y ago

Very possibly you don't want the US to be an empire and to spend money on the "security" of Israel (eg preventing us from developing fighter jets - for our own security, no doubt) or eg Germany which can't even give asylum to Snowden who broke the news that your intel agencies eavesdrop on their Chancellor's phone. Just don't blame the vassals. Raise this point with the imperial government. You're a voting subject, maybe you can pull it off. (It could be that for the US taxpayer the empire is a good deal. eg could you print all those dollars and get the entire world to hold them without the empire? You get a nice windfall from this. But again it's between you and your government. Maybe if you called yourself an empire, it would enable more open and productive discussions wrt cost/benefit analysis per vassal state.)