9 ms·

It is most definitely a control thing. Companies are afraid to lose the iron grip they have over the lives of employees.

WalterBright 5y ago
> iron grip Jeez, give it a rest. Companies don't give a crap about your life. None have ever showed the slightest interest in anything I do when not at work.
- obmelvin 5y ago
  I feel your point, but obviously not every work environment is the same.
  - WalterBright 5y ago
    The phrase "people like ice cream" does not mean "all people like ice cream".
    - obmelvin 5y ago
      That's true, but it's weird to tell someone to give it a rest because you have a different experience.
- xvector 5y ago
  If this was really the case, WFH would be a no-brainer and would not meet so much resistance from management. Most companies clearly care more about the fact that they can account for the time you’re in office, as opposed to how productive you actually are.
  - dsyrk 5y ago
    I switched my tech company to full WFH. I also implemented detailed surveillance on all employees, which I don’t disclose. It shows me keyboard/mouse activity levels and window update rates. It’s very interesting information, I have much better insight how and when people work, which are very different from each other. I also have other productivity measures and now I can really understand when someone is not working vs stuck or having difficulties. I expect for slackers this coming world will be harder to hide in.
    - xvector 5y ago
      That’s ridiculous, and only proves my point that management is obsessed with meaningless metrics and what employees do with their free time rather than whether they’re completing their assigned duties or not.
      - dsyrk 5y ago
        I feel very empowered by WFH as a manager. I get gamed much less by the developers I manage. For instance I assign a duty or task as you mention, and I can now clearly see if anytime was spent on it or not. So during my progress reviews if a developer says he is still working on it, been a bit more complex than he expected, yet I can clear see when he was active on the system, and due to proprietary nature of our software, you can’t really spend much time that is useful outside our system, so if I see only 1-2 hours actively working, my activity data is second granularity, and I have statistical reports and graphs written up in R, so I know with absolute precision, but they don’t know. I now know clearly who lies and who doesn’t. I don’t tell the ones who lie that I know. Instead I just focus on the technical issues on their task, sometimes I just do it for them, to humiliate them.
        infinitezest 5y ago
        If you're getting "gamed" by your staff, the issue might not be with the developers' working habits...
        leesalminen 5y ago
        That this manager chooses to “humiliate” certain employees is also indicative of the root cause of the issue.
        dsyrk 5y ago
        They get pretty embarrassed when I complete their assignment in 2 hours after our meeting an assignment which should have taken them maybe one day but they have supposedly been working on for the last 8. It’s a very effective technique and so far has been applied to more junior employees with great success.
  - tazjin 5y ago
    So you think there is absolutely no difference in the kind of collaboration that can be done online vs. IRL? People should get to pick a role where they work from wherever they want, but they should be realistic about both up- and downsides of their preferred location. FWIW, I'm mostly pro-office - even after all this time - but I'm making a career change because I don't want to deal with living in the West anymore. Maybe pushing for remote work would've worked, but I find it to be an overwhelmingly anti-social experience that sucks all fun out of being at work and I have no intention of continuing with that.
    - xvector 5y ago
      In my years of office work across a variety of “innovative” companies, tech megacorps and unicorn startups alike, I have found the moments of truly productive whiteboard collaboration rare and far between. It’s fun when it happens but I just don’t see it warranting the daily commute. Of course, that is my own opinion and personal preference. But yes, I agree that it’s a no-brainer to let employees choose the work style that suits them best.
    - enraged_camel 5y ago
      >>So you think there is absolutely no difference in the kind of collaboration that can be done online vs. IRL? Office is not the only place where face-to-face collaboration can happen. Coffee shops, for example, are one of my favorite co-working environments.
- the-dude 5y ago
  Have you ever been asked to come in on Saturdays? Often?
  - WalterBright 5y ago
    Sure. That's an interest in getting work done, not putting my life under iron control. I got paid overtime for it, too.
    - the-dude 5y ago
      So they were very much interested in what you did when not at work : they wanted you to come in at work.
      - WalterBright 5y ago
        > So they were very much interested in what you did when not at work That does not follow.
- Mountain_Skies 5y ago
  Companies don't, managers often do.
  - WalterBright 5y ago
    I've never, ever encountered a manager that was interested in what anyone did when not on the clock. (Well, my manager at Boeing did invite me to come flying with him, and I did, and got a nice aerial tour of Seattle.) Of course, I'm sure they exist. Not often, though. The people who want to control other peoples' lives go into politics and activism, not business.
- whateveracct 5y ago
  > None have ever showed the slightest interest in anything I do when not at work. Right, but they do what they can to increase the time you are at work. I'd say requiring 40 mandatory hours in an office is a start to that, and they do plenty to try to grow those 40.

WalterBright 5y ago

> iron grip Jeez, give it a rest. Companies don't give a crap about your life. None have ever showed the slightest interest in anything I do when not at work.

obmelvin 5y ago
I feel your point, but obviously not every work environment is the same.
- WalterBright 5y ago
  The phrase "people like ice cream" does not mean "all people like ice cream".
  - obmelvin 5y ago
    That's true, but it's weird to tell someone to give it a rest because you have a different experience.
xvector 5y ago
If this was really the case, WFH would be a no-brainer and would not meet so much resistance from management. Most companies clearly care more about the fact that they can account for the time you’re in office, as opposed to how productive you actually are.
- dsyrk 5y ago
  I switched my tech company to full WFH. I also implemented detailed surveillance on all employees, which I don’t disclose. It shows me keyboard/mouse activity levels and window update rates. It’s very interesting information, I have much better insight how and when people work, which are very different from each other. I also have other productivity measures and now I can really understand when someone is not working vs stuck or having difficulties. I expect for slackers this coming world will be harder to hide in.
  - xvector 5y ago
    That’s ridiculous, and only proves my point that management is obsessed with meaningless metrics and what employees do with their free time rather than whether they’re completing their assigned duties or not.
    - dsyrk 5y ago
      I feel very empowered by WFH as a manager. I get gamed much less by the developers I manage. For instance I assign a duty or task as you mention, and I can now clearly see if anytime was spent on it or not. So during my progress reviews if a developer says he is still working on it, been a bit more complex than he expected, yet I can clear see when he was active on the system, and due to proprietary nature of our software, you can’t really spend much time that is useful outside our system, so if I see only 1-2 hours actively working, my activity data is second granularity, and I have statistical reports and graphs written up in R, so I know with absolute precision, but they don’t know. I now know clearly who lies and who doesn’t. I don’t tell the ones who lie that I know. Instead I just focus on the technical issues on their task, sometimes I just do it for them, to humiliate them.
      - infinitezest 5y ago
        If you're getting "gamed" by your staff, the issue might not be with the developers' working habits...
        leesalminen 5y ago
        That this manager chooses to “humiliate” certain employees is also indicative of the root cause of the issue.
        dsyrk 5y ago
        They get pretty embarrassed when I complete their assignment in 2 hours after our meeting an assignment which should have taken them maybe one day but they have supposedly been working on for the last 8. It’s a very effective technique and so far has been applied to more junior employees with great success.
- tazjin 5y ago
  So you think there is absolutely no difference in the kind of collaboration that can be done online vs. IRL? People should get to pick a role where they work from wherever they want, but they should be realistic about both up- and downsides of their preferred location. FWIW, I'm mostly pro-office - even after all this time - but I'm making a career change because I don't want to deal with living in the West anymore. Maybe pushing for remote work would've worked, but I find it to be an overwhelmingly anti-social experience that sucks all fun out of being at work and I have no intention of continuing with that.
  - xvector 5y ago
    In my years of office work across a variety of “innovative” companies, tech megacorps and unicorn startups alike, I have found the moments of truly productive whiteboard collaboration rare and far between. It’s fun when it happens but I just don’t see it warranting the daily commute. Of course, that is my own opinion and personal preference. But yes, I agree that it’s a no-brainer to let employees choose the work style that suits them best.
  - enraged_camel 5y ago
    >>So you think there is absolutely no difference in the kind of collaboration that can be done online vs. IRL? Office is not the only place where face-to-face collaboration can happen. Coffee shops, for example, are one of my favorite co-working environments.
the-dude 5y ago
Have you ever been asked to come in on Saturdays? Often?
- WalterBright 5y ago
  Sure. That's an interest in getting work done, not putting my life under iron control. I got paid overtime for it, too.
  - the-dude 5y ago
    So they were very much interested in what you did when not at work : they wanted you to come in at work.
    - WalterBright 5y ago
      > So they were very much interested in what you did when not at work That does not follow.
Mountain_Skies 5y ago
Companies don't, managers often do.
- WalterBright 5y ago
  I've never, ever encountered a manager that was interested in what anyone did when not on the clock. (Well, my manager at Boeing did invite me to come flying with him, and I did, and got a nice aerial tour of Seattle.) Of course, I'm sure they exist. Not often, though. The people who want to control other peoples' lives go into politics and activism, not business.
whateveracct 5y ago
> None have ever showed the slightest interest in anything I do when not at work. Right, but they do what they can to increase the time you are at work. I'd say requiring 40 mandatory hours in an office is a start to that, and they do plenty to try to grow those 40.