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> We decide humans are superior to other animals because we are humans, and us>them. That's painting things with a pretty broad brush, not everyone thinks this

> We decide humans are superior to other animals because we are humans, and us>them. That's painting things with a pretty broad brush, not everyone thinks this way. From conversing with people about the issue, those that do, do so mostly because they haven't actually put any conscious thought into it, even a few minutes is enough to knock down that straw man. Personally, I think humans are superior to other animals because we are more capable of feeling and thinking than they are. A bacterium or plant cannot feel joy, it cannot communicate pride in it's accomplishments to other members of its species, it cannot feel pain, it cannot suffer, it cannot develop into an adult which can do those things, it just is. A pig, dog, or dolphin can do many of those things, a chicken or fish can a little but much less so. Empirically, to me, this capability criteria sets a 'value' roughly proportional to their number of cortical neurons on a logarithmic scale.

sweetheart 5y ago
So, a thought experiment: If an alien species came to Earth, and they were FAR more emotionally sensitive than we were, and could suffer MUCH more as a result, would that make your suffering when they start to enslave you any less meaningful? Would you understand, and allow yourself to be enslaved, or would you believe that it was still wrong for them to do that to you, even if they had the capacity to suffer more? I personally don’t think so. Can I feel a wider range of emotions than a chicken? Probably. Can I be upset or elated by more things than a chicken? Probably. Can the chicken still suffer? Yes. Can it be anxious? Can it be terrified? Can it be in pain? Can it be lonely? All yes. Whether or not it feels any if those things more or less than anything else is irrelevant when it doesn’t need to happen at all.
- amelius 5y ago
  > If an alien species came to Earth, and they were FAR more emotionally sensitive than we were, and could suffer MUCH more as a result, would that make your suffering when they start to enslave you any less meaningful? But perhaps they would do so in a way that is appropriate for our level of consciousness. Perhaps we'd not even be aware that someone was experimenting on us, just like animals have no idea that this is what is happening to them. Etc.
  - sweetheart 5y ago
    Oh boy, let me tell you, animals absolutely know what we are doing to them. They suffer immensely. Check this out, it offers just a glimpse into what that suffering includes: https://youtu.be/LQRAfJyEsko https://youtu.be/LQRAfJyEsko
    - amelius 5y ago
      The video seems blocked. Is this about monkeys? I was talking about mice (since it is the animal which is used by far the most in experiments).
      - sweetheart 5y ago
        No it’s about factory farming. If you were specifically talking about animal testing, the video I linked is irrelevant. I was talking about what we do to animals in general, not just testing. But to that point, the first chapter of Peter Singer’s “Animal Liberation” covers what animal testing is, and how horrific it can be, if you’d like to learn more about just how aware these animals are about what we are doing to them.

sweetheart 5y ago

So, a thought experiment: If an alien species came to Earth, and they were FAR more emotionally sensitive than we were, and could suffer MUCH more as a result, would that make your suffering when they start to enslave you any less meaningful? Would you understand, and allow yourself to be enslaved, or would you believe that it was still wrong for them to do that to you, even if they had the capacity to suffer more? I personally don’t think so. Can I feel a wider range of emotions than a chicken? Probably. Can I be upset or elated by more things than a chicken? Probably. Can the chicken still suffer? Yes. Can it be anxious? Can it be terrified? Can it be in pain? Can it be lonely? All yes. Whether or not it feels any if those things more or less than anything else is irrelevant when it doesn’t need to happen at all.

amelius 5y ago
> If an alien species came to Earth, and they were FAR more emotionally sensitive than we were, and could suffer MUCH more as a result, would that make your suffering when they start to enslave you any less meaningful? But perhaps they would do so in a way that is appropriate for our level of consciousness. Perhaps we'd not even be aware that someone was experimenting on us, just like animals have no idea that this is what is happening to them. Etc.
- sweetheart 5y ago
  Oh boy, let me tell you, animals absolutely know what we are doing to them. They suffer immensely. Check this out, it offers just a glimpse into what that suffering includes: https://youtu.be/LQRAfJyEsko https://youtu.be/LQRAfJyEsko
  - amelius 5y ago
    The video seems blocked. Is this about monkeys? I was talking about mice (since it is the animal which is used by far the most in experiments).
    - sweetheart 5y ago
      No it’s about factory farming. If you were specifically talking about animal testing, the video I linked is irrelevant. I was talking about what we do to animals in general, not just testing. But to that point, the first chapter of Peter Singer’s “Animal Liberation” covers what animal testing is, and how horrific it can be, if you’d like to learn more about just how aware these animals are about what we are doing to them.