13 ms·

Goodbye Freenode

279 points by Foxboron 5y ago

abstractbeliefs 5y ago
As well as purging #python and network banning some of the regulars there for pushing back, #fsf and #gnu were taken over this morning by the new freenode staff, despite a 2 week transition plan being published. https://status.fsf.org/notice/4214348 https://status.fsf.org/notice/4214348
- spinax 5y ago
  FSF/GNU transition post mentioned above: https://www.fsf.org/news/fsf-and-gnu-move-official-irc-channels-to-libera-chat-network https://www.fsf.org/news/fsf-and-gnu-move-official-irc-chann...
- danaris 5y ago
  I somewhat suspect that it is not despite the transition plan, but rather because of it, given Lee's demonstrated vindictiveness to any community or project that dares to state their intentions to leave "his" network.
Kim_Bruning 5y ago
I think it's important to continuously warn people about the freenode takeover, lest communities end up split. (see also: https://netsplit.de/networks/top10.php https://netsplit.de/networks/top10.php current statistics)
- atatatat 5y ago
  /., Digg, reddit — centralized convenience is still too convenient. Build out open standards well, instead of trying to get people to avoid services on principles alone (it doesn't go great usually).
  - abstractbeliefs 5y ago
    thankfully, IRC is an open protocol, so for most people making such a change could be as simple as mechanically replacing "chat.freenode.net" with "irc.libera.chat" in their config.
- kunagi7 5y ago
  Seems like the transition is going quite smoothly so the warnings are going through despite the bans and channel closures. Good job to the libera staff and community! And definitively I'm saving that link.
  - manabi 5y ago
    I'm pretty sure the bans & channel closures have hastened the transition. People log in and see pretty much no one on the channel, search to see if something happened, and turn up the news about Lee fucking Freenode up. Then they leave, too.
- cdubzzz 5y ago
  I have been watching that graph since this whole thing flared up and, if nothing else, find it hilarious when paired with the "freenode exists for FOSS" blog post[0] with this leading statement: > The current global user count of freenode exceeds the user count of the 2nd-6th largest networks, combined. I am pleased to announce, the plan to destroy freenode has failed! [0] https://freenode.net/news/for-foss https://freenode.net/news/for-foss
- kuschku 5y ago
  That’s why I implemented this warning in my client: https://twitter.com/quasseldroid/status/1397824682259329024 https://twitter.com/quasseldroid/status/1397824682259329024
phoe-krk 5y ago
The current Libera Chat[0] is everything that Freenode was before rasengan entered the game: a stable IRC network that goes out of its way to be transparent to the communities and projects that use it and to provide them with stability and network operator support, period. The current Fleenode is nothing that Freenode was before rasengan entered the game: it destroyed the stability of all the projects that previously used it by flipping the network's functioning upside down, in a very mediocre way ("accidentally" horrible communication from the current staff towards everyone else, "accidentally" taking over channels via bot action, "accidentally" k-lining irccloud about the time [3] was introduced, using the "I'm being cancelled" argument as one line of defense and "mistakes were made but they are fixed, understanding would be appreciated" as another) and with very mediocre results[1]. All of this was done seemingly in order to introduce several Freenode-branded projects[2][3][4][5] that I haven't seen anyone request. These projects, in their current shape, seriously look to me like some shiny toys that use Freenode as a hub and that are now out there, looking for use and popularity. Congratulations and massive thanks to the Libera Chat team for proving that hard community forks are possible not just in theory, but also in practice - the transition period was short and the staff there really did everything to make it smooth. I've migrated and it seems it was a good decision, I don't look back in the slightest. [0] https://libera.chat/ https://libera.chat/ [1] https://isfreenodedeadyet.com/ https://isfreenodedeadyet.com/ [2] https://chit.freenode.net/ https://chit.freenode.net/ - a bash.org clone [3] https://bbs.freenode.net/ https://bbs.freenode.net/ - a Hacker News clone [4] https://bnc.freenode.net/ https://bnc.freenode.net/ - an irccloud clone [5] https://jobs.freenode.net/ https://jobs.freenode.net/ - a Hacker News clone, just exclusively with job postings
- dangerbird2 5y ago
  > using the "I'm being cancelled" argument I love it when people find the most ridiculous things to blame on "cancel culture". This goes toe to toe with Bob Baffert blaming it for being banned from horse racing after his Kentucky Derby winning horse being caught with steroids in his system, and after having his horses failing 31 drug tests over his career. It's like the "dog ate my homework" of 2021
  - 5y ago
hprotagonist 5y ago
if you k-line nedbat, of all people, you’re obviously deranged. fuckin’ bye.
- cout 5y ago
  Who is nedbat?
  - hprotagonist 5y ago
    Ned Batchelder, the author of the post. Among much else, he’s consistently a voice of patient sanity.
    - cout 5y ago
      Thank you for the swift and polite reply.
      - StavrosK 5y ago
        He's super helpful in #python, great guy.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - foxhop 5y ago
    The author of the blog post uses the nick 'nedbat' on IRC and on the internet and he is a really smart and nice fellow who shares and helps people with all sort of Python and other questions.
siraben 5y ago
At this point, it has been exceedingly clear that almost every project has jumped ship[0][1]. For weeks the leave list has grown to over 700 while the stay list is at 3. [0] https://github.com/siraben/freenode-exodus https://github.com/siraben/freenode-exodus [1] https://isfreenodedeadyet.com/ https://isfreenodedeadyet.com/
- Sebb767 5y ago
  > or weeks the leave list has grown to over 700 while the stay list is at 3. It's more like 1.5 [0]. #techrights stayed and #forth has a bridged setup. The third channel listed is #freenode. [0] https://github.com/siraben/freenode-exodus#projects-and-channels-that-have-decided-to-stay-on-freenode https://github.com/siraben/freenode-exodus#projects-and-chan...
  - siraben 5y ago
    Yes :), part of the joke is that even when you try to look for channels staying (and I've asked dozens of people at this point), they're obviously staying (tied to freenode), compromising (bridging) or very extreme (#techrights is not the most pleasant of places, let's put it like that).
  - gerikson 5y ago
    #techrights have migrated to their own server and are bridging to Freenode.
- waon 5y ago
  According to one of the new ops for the now unofficial Freenode #fsf channel, #reactos may have stayed. If true, the count would be four. > @freenode_CrystalMath:matrix.org > and i'm a reactos developer, though we're not on libera at all > @freenode_CrystalMath:matrix.org > we're only on freenode and mattermost
raphlinus 5y ago
It is ironic, but not at all surprising to me, that "free speech" in the context of current Freenode means being not enforcing codes of conduct (so being transphobia-friendly among other things), but an iron moderation grip on any criticism of the network itself.
- marcan_42 5y ago
  They're not just transphobia-friendly; one of their new ops got opped right after uttering a transphobic slur in a very transphobic sentence. Their own staff are openly transphobes.
  - hluska 5y ago
    If any trans people read this, I’m sorry some people are like that but I love the hell out of you.
    - diogenesjunior 5y ago
      Wow, what a king.
    - IntelMiner 5y ago
      Trans rights are human rights. Always will be
    - shrimp_emoji 5y ago
      <3
    - Gaelan 5y ago
      Not a sentence I expected to see on HN today. Thank you.
    - 1337shadow 5y ago
      No problem, I'm trans and I'm not forcing anyone to like it. Just don't punch me in the face or something. I'm back on freenode because I like that that freedom of speech even when I disagree, this must be my Voltaire-ish side.
Foxboron 5y ago
Seems like 2 Arch Linux maintainers have now been klined after they (again) took over ##archlinux to redirect people back to #archlinux.
jordemort 5y ago
I mean, I guess if new Freenode's mission to "preserve IRC" includes preserving drama, flamewars, channel takeovers, and mass bans, then mission accomplished!
dTal 5y ago
While I agree that Libera is New Freenode and Old Freenode is rapidly dying a death, this whole episode has soured me mightily against Freenode as a whole. This should never have happened in the first place and the blame for it lies squarely at the OldFreenode/Libera admin's feet, not whichever outside actor took advantage of it. The admins are an "old boys network" - not chosen by the community, or elected, but simply in-group appointment - and while Rasengan is certainly a loose cannon, I have seen enough chatlogs to note that "the admins" are not innocent of power-tripping and favoritism either. If I were starting an IRC channel for a free software project now, I would put it on OFTC, which has a real governance model with elections and - mysteriously - also manages to be drama-free.
- iforgotpassword 5y ago
  Agree. It would have been great if the old staff and servers would have merged with OFTC, but it seems this wasn't even considered at any point. Nothing seems to have changed in that relation. But oh well, just another network to connect to until everything has maybe moved off freenode.
  - abstractbeliefs 5y ago
    It would probably be risky to drag the only other foss-focussed network into the legal battle. Andrew Lee has shown that he is litigious, so why expose another organisation to that risk?
    - iforgotpassword 5y ago
      Fair enough.
  - caf 5y ago
    Merging two networks is problematic. The same nicks and channels are owned by different people on either side; in this case the server software is distinct as well with different features supported.
  - mst 5y ago
christofosho 5y ago
I stuck around IRC because of people like Ned providing sound advice and keeping a kind community. It's a shame that drama brews and things like this happen. Hopefully the change keeps the community happier and healthier!
neilv 5y ago
Many IRC networks have had drama. But does anyone know the motivation for recent actions by Freenode? I'm discounting conspiracy theories (e.g., flipping, sabotage) because I think anyone acting strategically wrt IRC knows that forking an IRC network has been part of the standard toolkit for responding to "damage", since almost the start. I'm starting to lean towards a theory of there being no longer being a business reason nor ideological reason to Freenode's recent actions. At least not after the first few days.
- progval 5y ago
  There is some speculation about the motivations here: https://ariadne.space/2021/05/20/the-whole-freenode-kerfluffle/ https://ariadne.space/2021/05/20/the-whole-freenode-kerfluff...
  - neilv 5y ago
    I don't know these particular people, but, absolutely, many people grew up with IRC and similar earlier online social forums as a refuge from trauma, or to find community or acceptance. (That started in the age of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Internet,_nobody_knows_you%27re_a_dog https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Internet,_nobody_knows_... , before more conventional social dynamics took over the 'Net.) If that theory is correct, I'd guess there's a good path to something that everyone feels better about. But it might involve Freenode being turned over to a nonprofit. I think many traditional users wouldn't go back, but the right nonprofit might find a way to pivot to new service to the world. In the credible nonprofit scenario, the value of the Freenode brand now might be of the flavor: we made mistakes, learned dearly, came out much stronger.
    - manabi 5y ago
      I doubt any nonprofit credible enough is going to risk damaging their reputation by taking on Freenode after what Lee's done with it. Nearly everyone's already moved to Libera & OFTC, people aren't going to want to move back after all that work, and well, frankly, Freenode's very name is toxic now. Also, I doubt Lee would ever give up control, because it's clear controlling the network is what he wanted all along.
StavrosK 5y ago
I don't understand what the big deal with all this Freenode drama is. It just got renamed to Libera, update your host files and you're done.
- jakelazaroff 5y ago
  The drama is that whenever someone attempts to tell people that on Freenode, their channels get taken over and/or they get banned.
  - StavrosK 5y ago
    My comment was a rather tongue-in-cheek take of how Libera is carrying on the spirit of Freenode, and we should just consider Freenode a random other network that somehow got Freenode's name by accident.
  - raverbashing 5y ago
    At this point, if you haven't heard of it through other means then you're Out Of The Loop (yeah I suppose if you were on a coma for the past months and only read IRC and no discussions anywhere else...) But I agree, it's a bit of needless drama, especially when continuing on Freenode has shown to be untenable.
- CyberShadow 5y ago
  I do wonder why the Libera staff didn't kick off the network with a copy of the Freenode user/channel database. Perhaps the Freenode legal entity has a claim to it?
  - StavrosK 5y ago
    What good would that do, if the users aren't connecting to the network?
    - CyberShadow 5y ago
      > What good would that do, It would save both staff and users a lot of time from having to re-register accounts, channels, and projects/communities. > if the users aren't connecting to the network? I don't understand this part, sorry.
that_guy_iain 5y ago
„I was constantly messaging people telling them to use a competitor and I was banned.“ the entitlement of these people blow my mind.
- spinax 5y ago
  I know, right? The sheer audacity of Freenode to believe they own the communities of FSF, Arch, Gentoo, GNU, Python and countless other FOSS projects is unfathomable. I just can't believe how entitled Freenode believes itself to be, banning project leaders and performing hostile takeovers of established communities being run by their official projects. It really does blow my mind.
- mokus 5y ago
  Thinking you can buy a business relationship with millions of people on a network run mostly by volunteers and expect everyone to start operating it and using it for your benefit instead of for the ideals of their 20+ year community sounds a lot more entitled to me. The whole idea of purchasing a business for its customer base is pretty disturbing in the first place. I as a customer do not consider my relationship with any business to be a transferable asset.
- nedbat 5y ago
  What I was doing on Freenode was providing a quick answer to questions, and also pointing out that most people had moved, so better answers were more likely on Libera. I never told people to not answer questions. If people wanted Freenode #python to be a lively place, they were welcome to stay and answer questions. They didn't. Of course, Freenode is free to decide that my mentioning Libera was a reason to remove me. But I didn't see a clear policy forbidding it (though the policies have been changing daily, so I might have missed it). Just as Freenode is free to remove people, people are free to move to another network. And that is what is happening. My main point in my blog post was not, "I have been wronged!" My point was, "Freenode is doing this to themselves, but it's OK because Freenode doesn't matter."
- SaberUK 5y ago
  Within IRC culture networks exist to serve the projects and users not the other way around. Failing to understand this is why leenode is losing users in the first place.
georgyo 5y ago
All my chat networks I care about have migrated to Libera or Matrix. And I agree freenode is circling the drain. I was also banned and Klined, but I am not sure this was a free node action... I was immediately able to reconnect to a different freenode server. And have not been bothered since. It definitely feels like a rouge operator just banned everyone on their node. However despite this happening several days ago, there is no statement from freenode, so IDK.
CyberShadow 5y ago
I happened to experience an interesting incident not long ago related to the subject. After a week or two of uptime, I restarted my PC. As it happened, I reconnected while Freenode was in the middle of a spam wave. Something mistook my client for a spam bot and banned my IP. Oh well, "and nothing of value was lost" I thought and deleted Freenode from my server list. But, later that day, I discovered that I could not connect to other IRC networks: the Freenode ban was propagated to DroneBL, and then picked up by other IRC networks. I was effectively blacklisted from all of IRC. This also affected some services I was providing to a few communities. I did get the ban removed, but after this incident, I would not recommend anyone to connect to Freenode at all. The new administration doesn't seem to have sufficient experience to fill their present position suitably.
- rincebrain 5y ago
  FWIW, I did something foolish that triggered the spambot detection on Libera, and it likewise propagated my ban to DroneBL. (It all got removed very quickly when someone was contacted about it, and I have no negative opinion about the experience because, in my case, it very much was of my own making, I just mention it so you're aware that sort of blacklisting is not limited to freenode.)
rektide 5y ago
worth pointing out that a huge amount of the longstanding freenode policy & other bits of content (history) were unceremoniously taken off the website 3 days ago. "Leenode" really is trying hard to burn itself to the ground. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27475592 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27475592
imwillofficial 5y ago
I find the quote “never attribute to malice what could be explained by incompetence” to be woefully overused. People are often petty, mean spirited, and act irrationally. To throw your hands up and say “hey it was a mistake!” Without further reflection on the intention and purpose of an action is setting yourself up for failure. This does not mean do not be charitable. This means don’t be lazy and rely on a poorly formed quote as an axiom to live your life by. Dig deeper.
- atoav 5y ago
  I don't think this is the be way it works. Maybe at the first time I will not attribute to malice if it can be explained by incompetence. But that individual will either way land on my "observe a little more carefully"-list which might give me more data to decide if they act maliciously or just incompetently. What isn't successful at all is when you constantly suspect all others are doing everything for the most evil reason possible. Because this is really not the case in pracise and also has a cost that you need to carry. Edit: although in this example one could argue explaining it by incompetence alone will need some major mental gymnastics.
imwillofficial 5y ago
This is why I abandoned IRC long ago in favor of Matrix. Until the IRC scene settles down a bit, I’m out. IRC is painful enough as it is.
grouphugs 5y ago
and another easy good bye to libera.chat
azinman2 5y ago
So at this point what does Freenode actually have? It seems like no one is left…
- geerlingguy 5y ago
  The very temporary distinction of having the most active users connected to the network.
Ndymium 5y ago
IRCCloud users have been banned from connecting to Freenode: https://twitter.com/IRCCloud/status/1404153550159159298 https://twitter.com/IRCCloud/status/1404153550159159298
d23 5y ago
Malicious individuals invariably rely on and take advantage of good faith interpretations of their behavior. This is the only way they are able to continue their abuse for so long. Judge people by their actions.
deckard1 5y ago
This drama all reminds me of what happened at DALnet in the early 2000s. A few overzealous IRCops started a purge of all the warez/mp3 scene channels. Everyone suspected RIAA put the pressure on them. I was a channel op with a handful of friends at the time of a popular channel (100-200 members on average). One day I logged on and the channel was invite only. They took the channel via their ChanServ service. Everyone I know either moved to EFnet or Undernet.
- manabi 5y ago
  That's not quite how it happened, DALnet suffered prolonged DDoS assaults that took the network offline for several weeks. (I remember it being a couple of months.) Once they got past the DDoS was when they banned all file trading. It wasn't just warez and mp3 channels, it also targeted manga scanlation and anime fansub groups. The reasoning I heard was that the DDoS was triggered by someone getting upset about something that happened in a file-trading channel, and decided to DDoS the entire network as a result. After being offline for so long from the attack, DALnet admins wanted nothing to do with that kind of bullshit again and just purged it all. I really can't say that I blame them.
fairity 5y ago
Are there usage statistics that support or invalidate the theory that a majority of active users have migrated from Freenode to Libera?
- SaberUK 5y ago
  https://isfreenodedeadyet.com/ https://isfreenodedeadyet.com/ and https://netsplit.de/networks/top10.php https://netsplit.de/networks/top10.php are useful. The former has PRIVMSG (message) statistics which show that Libera Chat is considerably more active than freenode despite having less total users (for now, the crossover point is predicted to be the 26th and it's been moving closer and closer for days).
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

279 points by Foxboron 5y ago

As well as purging #python and network banning some of the regulars there for pushing back, #fsf and #gnu were taken over this morning by the new freenode staff, despite a 2 week transition plan being published. https://status.fsf.org/notice/4214348 https://status.fsf.org/notice/4214348

spinax 5y ago
FSF/GNU transition post mentioned above: https://www.fsf.org/news/fsf-and-gnu-move-official-irc-channels-to-libera-chat-network https://www.fsf.org/news/fsf-and-gnu-move-official-irc-chann...
danaris 5y ago
I somewhat suspect that it is not despite the transition plan, but rather because of it, given Lee's demonstrated vindictiveness to any community or project that dares to state their intentions to leave "his" network.

Kim_Bruning 5y ago

I think it's important to continuously warn people about the freenode takeover, lest communities end up split. (see also: https://netsplit.de/networks/top10.php https://netsplit.de/networks/top10.php current statistics)

atatatat 5y ago
/., Digg, reddit — centralized convenience is still too convenient. Build out open standards well, instead of trying to get people to avoid services on principles alone (it doesn't go great usually).
- abstractbeliefs 5y ago
  thankfully, IRC is an open protocol, so for most people making such a change could be as simple as mechanically replacing "chat.freenode.net" with "irc.libera.chat" in their config.
kunagi7 5y ago
Seems like the transition is going quite smoothly so the warnings are going through despite the bans and channel closures. Good job to the libera staff and community! And definitively I'm saving that link.
- manabi 5y ago
  I'm pretty sure the bans & channel closures have hastened the transition. People log in and see pretty much no one on the channel, search to see if something happened, and turn up the news about Lee fucking Freenode up. Then they leave, too.
cdubzzz 5y ago
I have been watching that graph since this whole thing flared up and, if nothing else, find it hilarious when paired with the "freenode exists for FOSS" blog post[0] with this leading statement: > The current global user count of freenode exceeds the user count of the 2nd-6th largest networks, combined. I am pleased to announce, the plan to destroy freenode has failed! [0] https://freenode.net/news/for-foss https://freenode.net/news/for-foss
kuschku 5y ago
That’s why I implemented this warning in my client: https://twitter.com/quasseldroid/status/1397824682259329024 https://twitter.com/quasseldroid/status/1397824682259329024

phoe-krk 5y ago

The current Libera Chat[0] is everything that Freenode was before rasengan entered the game: a stable IRC network that goes out of its way to be transparent to the communities and projects that use it and to provide them with stability and network operator support, period. The current Fleenode is nothing that Freenode was before rasengan entered the game: it destroyed the stability of all the projects that previously used it by flipping the network's functioning upside down, in a very mediocre way ("accidentally" horrible communication from the current staff towards everyone else, "accidentally" taking over channels via bot action, "accidentally" k-lining irccloud about the time [3] was introduced, using the "I'm being cancelled" argument as one line of defense and "mistakes were made but they are fixed, understanding would be appreciated" as another) and with very mediocre results[1]. All of this was done seemingly in order to introduce several Freenode-branded projects[2][3][4][5] that I haven't seen anyone request. These projects, in their current shape, seriously look to me like some shiny toys that use Freenode as a hub and that are now out there, looking for use and popularity. Congratulations and massive thanks to the Libera Chat team for proving that hard community forks are possible not just in theory, but also in practice - the transition period was short and the staff there really did everything to make it smooth. I've migrated and it seems it was a good decision, I don't look back in the slightest. [0] https://libera.chat/ https://libera.chat/ [1] https://isfreenodedeadyet.com/ https://isfreenodedeadyet.com/ [2] https://chit.freenode.net/ https://chit.freenode.net/ - a bash.org clone [3] https://bbs.freenode.net/ https://bbs.freenode.net/ - a Hacker News clone [4] https://bnc.freenode.net/ https://bnc.freenode.net/ - an irccloud clone [5] https://jobs.freenode.net/ https://jobs.freenode.net/ - a Hacker News clone, just exclusively with job postings

dangerbird2 5y ago
> using the "I'm being cancelled" argument I love it when people find the most ridiculous things to blame on "cancel culture". This goes toe to toe with Bob Baffert blaming it for being banned from horse racing after his Kentucky Derby winning horse being caught with steroids in his system, and after having his horses failing 31 drug tests over his career. It's like the "dog ate my homework" of 2021
- 5y ago

hprotagonist 5y ago

if you k-line nedbat, of all people, you’re obviously deranged. fuckin’ bye.

cout 5y ago
Who is nedbat?
- hprotagonist 5y ago
  Ned Batchelder, the author of the post. Among much else, he’s consistently a voice of patient sanity.
  - cout 5y ago
    Thank you for the swift and polite reply.
    - StavrosK 5y ago
      He's super helpful in #python, great guy.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- foxhop 5y ago
  The author of the blog post uses the nick 'nedbat' on IRC and on the internet and he is a really smart and nice fellow who shares and helps people with all sort of Python and other questions.

siraben 5y ago

At this point, it has been exceedingly clear that almost every project has jumped ship[0][1]. For weeks the leave list has grown to over 700 while the stay list is at 3. [0] https://github.com/siraben/freenode-exodus https://github.com/siraben/freenode-exodus [1] https://isfreenodedeadyet.com/ https://isfreenodedeadyet.com/

Sebb767 5y ago
> or weeks the leave list has grown to over 700 while the stay list is at 3. It's more like 1.5 [0]. #techrights stayed and #forth has a bridged setup. The third channel listed is #freenode. [0] https://github.com/siraben/freenode-exodus#projects-and-channels-that-have-decided-to-stay-on-freenode https://github.com/siraben/freenode-exodus#projects-and-chan...
- siraben 5y ago
  Yes :), part of the joke is that even when you try to look for channels staying (and I've asked dozens of people at this point), they're obviously staying (tied to freenode), compromising (bridging) or very extreme (#techrights is not the most pleasant of places, let's put it like that).
- gerikson 5y ago
  #techrights have migrated to their own server and are bridging to Freenode.
waon 5y ago
According to one of the new ops for the now unofficial Freenode #fsf channel, #reactos may have stayed. If true, the count would be four. > @freenode_CrystalMath:matrix.org > and i'm a reactos developer, though we're not on libera at all > @freenode_CrystalMath:matrix.org > we're only on freenode and mattermost

raphlinus 5y ago

It is ironic, but not at all surprising to me, that "free speech" in the context of current Freenode means being not enforcing codes of conduct (so being transphobia-friendly among other things), but an iron moderation grip on any criticism of the network itself.

marcan_42 5y ago
They're not just transphobia-friendly; one of their new ops got opped right after uttering a transphobic slur in a very transphobic sentence. Their own staff are openly transphobes.
- hluska 5y ago
  If any trans people read this, I’m sorry some people are like that but I love the hell out of you.
  - diogenesjunior 5y ago
    Wow, what a king.
  - IntelMiner 5y ago
    Trans rights are human rights. Always will be
  - shrimp_emoji 5y ago
    <3
  - Gaelan 5y ago
    Not a sentence I expected to see on HN today. Thank you.
  - 1337shadow 5y ago
    No problem, I'm trans and I'm not forcing anyone to like it. Just don't punch me in the face or something. I'm back on freenode because I like that that freedom of speech even when I disagree, this must be my Voltaire-ish side.

Foxboron 5y ago

Seems like 2 Arch Linux maintainers have now been klined after they (again) took over ##archlinux to redirect people back to #archlinux.

jordemort 5y ago

I mean, I guess if new Freenode's mission to "preserve IRC" includes preserving drama, flamewars, channel takeovers, and mass bans, then mission accomplished!

dTal 5y ago

While I agree that Libera is New Freenode and Old Freenode is rapidly dying a death, this whole episode has soured me mightily against Freenode as a whole. This should never have happened in the first place and the blame for it lies squarely at the OldFreenode/Libera admin's feet, not whichever outside actor took advantage of it. The admins are an "old boys network" - not chosen by the community, or elected, but simply in-group appointment - and while Rasengan is certainly a loose cannon, I have seen enough chatlogs to note that "the admins" are not innocent of power-tripping and favoritism either. If I were starting an IRC channel for a free software project now, I would put it on OFTC, which has a real governance model with elections and - mysteriously - also manages to be drama-free.

iforgotpassword 5y ago
Agree. It would have been great if the old staff and servers would have merged with OFTC, but it seems this wasn't even considered at any point. Nothing seems to have changed in that relation. But oh well, just another network to connect to until everything has maybe moved off freenode.
- abstractbeliefs 5y ago
  It would probably be risky to drag the only other foss-focussed network into the legal battle. Andrew Lee has shown that he is litigious, so why expose another organisation to that risk?
  - iforgotpassword 5y ago
    Fair enough.
- caf 5y ago
  Merging two networks is problematic. The same nicks and channels are owned by different people on either side; in this case the server software is distinct as well with different features supported.
- mst 5y ago

christofosho 5y ago

I stuck around IRC because of people like Ned providing sound advice and keeping a kind community. It's a shame that drama brews and things like this happen. Hopefully the change keeps the community happier and healthier!

neilv 5y ago

Many IRC networks have had drama. But does anyone know the motivation for recent actions by Freenode? I'm discounting conspiracy theories (e.g., flipping, sabotage) because I think anyone acting strategically wrt IRC knows that forking an IRC network has been part of the standard toolkit for responding to "damage", since almost the start. I'm starting to lean towards a theory of there being no longer being a business reason nor ideological reason to Freenode's recent actions. At least not after the first few days.

progval 5y ago
There is some speculation about the motivations here: https://ariadne.space/2021/05/20/the-whole-freenode-kerfluffle/ https://ariadne.space/2021/05/20/the-whole-freenode-kerfluff...
- neilv 5y ago
  I don't know these particular people, but, absolutely, many people grew up with IRC and similar earlier online social forums as a refuge from trauma, or to find community or acceptance. (That started in the age of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Internet,_nobody_knows_you%27re_a_dog https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Internet,_nobody_knows_... , before more conventional social dynamics took over the 'Net.) If that theory is correct, I'd guess there's a good path to something that everyone feels better about. But it might involve Freenode being turned over to a nonprofit. I think many traditional users wouldn't go back, but the right nonprofit might find a way to pivot to new service to the world. In the credible nonprofit scenario, the value of the Freenode brand now might be of the flavor: we made mistakes, learned dearly, came out much stronger.
  - manabi 5y ago
    I doubt any nonprofit credible enough is going to risk damaging their reputation by taking on Freenode after what Lee's done with it. Nearly everyone's already moved to Libera & OFTC, people aren't going to want to move back after all that work, and well, frankly, Freenode's very name is toxic now. Also, I doubt Lee would ever give up control, because it's clear controlling the network is what he wanted all along.

StavrosK 5y ago

I don't understand what the big deal with all this Freenode drama is. It just got renamed to Libera, update your host files and you're done.

jakelazaroff 5y ago
The drama is that whenever someone attempts to tell people that on Freenode, their channels get taken over and/or they get banned.
- StavrosK 5y ago
  My comment was a rather tongue-in-cheek take of how Libera is carrying on the spirit of Freenode, and we should just consider Freenode a random other network that somehow got Freenode's name by accident.
- raverbashing 5y ago
  At this point, if you haven't heard of it through other means then you're Out Of The Loop (yeah I suppose if you were on a coma for the past months and only read IRC and no discussions anywhere else...) But I agree, it's a bit of needless drama, especially when continuing on Freenode has shown to be untenable.
CyberShadow 5y ago
I do wonder why the Libera staff didn't kick off the network with a copy of the Freenode user/channel database. Perhaps the Freenode legal entity has a claim to it?
- StavrosK 5y ago
  What good would that do, if the users aren't connecting to the network?
  - CyberShadow 5y ago
    > What good would that do, It would save both staff and users a lot of time from having to re-register accounts, channels, and projects/communities. > if the users aren't connecting to the network? I don't understand this part, sorry.

that_guy_iain 5y ago

„I was constantly messaging people telling them to use a competitor and I was banned.“ the entitlement of these people blow my mind.

spinax 5y ago
I know, right? The sheer audacity of Freenode to believe they own the communities of FSF, Arch, Gentoo, GNU, Python and countless other FOSS projects is unfathomable. I just can't believe how entitled Freenode believes itself to be, banning project leaders and performing hostile takeovers of established communities being run by their official projects. It really does blow my mind.
mokus 5y ago
Thinking you can buy a business relationship with millions of people on a network run mostly by volunteers and expect everyone to start operating it and using it for your benefit instead of for the ideals of their 20+ year community sounds a lot more entitled to me. The whole idea of purchasing a business for its customer base is pretty disturbing in the first place. I as a customer do not consider my relationship with any business to be a transferable asset.
nedbat 5y ago
What I was doing on Freenode was providing a quick answer to questions, and also pointing out that most people had moved, so better answers were more likely on Libera. I never told people to not answer questions. If people wanted Freenode #python to be a lively place, they were welcome to stay and answer questions. They didn't. Of course, Freenode is free to decide that my mentioning Libera was a reason to remove me. But I didn't see a clear policy forbidding it (though the policies have been changing daily, so I might have missed it). Just as Freenode is free to remove people, people are free to move to another network. And that is what is happening. My main point in my blog post was not, "I have been wronged!" My point was, "Freenode is doing this to themselves, but it's OK because Freenode doesn't matter."
SaberUK 5y ago
Within IRC culture networks exist to serve the projects and users not the other way around. Failing to understand this is why leenode is losing users in the first place.

georgyo 5y ago

All my chat networks I care about have migrated to Libera or Matrix. And I agree freenode is circling the drain. I was also banned and Klined, but I am not sure this was a free node action... I was immediately able to reconnect to a different freenode server. And have not been bothered since. It definitely feels like a rouge operator just banned everyone on their node. However despite this happening several days ago, there is no statement from freenode, so IDK.

CyberShadow 5y ago

I happened to experience an interesting incident not long ago related to the subject. After a week or two of uptime, I restarted my PC. As it happened, I reconnected while Freenode was in the middle of a spam wave. Something mistook my client for a spam bot and banned my IP. Oh well, "and nothing of value was lost" I thought and deleted Freenode from my server list. But, later that day, I discovered that I could not connect to other IRC networks: the Freenode ban was propagated to DroneBL, and then picked up by other IRC networks. I was effectively blacklisted from all of IRC. This also affected some services I was providing to a few communities. I did get the ban removed, but after this incident, I would not recommend anyone to connect to Freenode at all. The new administration doesn't seem to have sufficient experience to fill their present position suitably.

rincebrain 5y ago
FWIW, I did something foolish that triggered the spambot detection on Libera, and it likewise propagated my ban to DroneBL. (It all got removed very quickly when someone was contacted about it, and I have no negative opinion about the experience because, in my case, it very much was of my own making, I just mention it so you're aware that sort of blacklisting is not limited to freenode.)

rektide 5y ago

worth pointing out that a huge amount of the longstanding freenode policy & other bits of content (history) were unceremoniously taken off the website 3 days ago. "Leenode" really is trying hard to burn itself to the ground. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27475592 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27475592

imwillofficial 5y ago

I find the quote “never attribute to malice what could be explained by incompetence” to be woefully overused. People are often petty, mean spirited, and act irrationally. To throw your hands up and say “hey it was a mistake!” Without further reflection on the intention and purpose of an action is setting yourself up for failure. This does not mean do not be charitable. This means don’t be lazy and rely on a poorly formed quote as an axiom to live your life by. Dig deeper.

atoav 5y ago
I don't think this is the be way it works. Maybe at the first time I will not attribute to malice if it can be explained by incompetence. But that individual will either way land on my "observe a little more carefully"-list which might give me more data to decide if they act maliciously or just incompetently. What isn't successful at all is when you constantly suspect all others are doing everything for the most evil reason possible. Because this is really not the case in pracise and also has a cost that you need to carry. Edit: although in this example one could argue explaining it by incompetence alone will need some major mental gymnastics.

imwillofficial 5y ago

This is why I abandoned IRC long ago in favor of Matrix. Until the IRC scene settles down a bit, I’m out. IRC is painful enough as it is.

grouphugs 5y ago

and another easy good bye to libera.chat

azinman2 5y ago

So at this point what does Freenode actually have? It seems like no one is left…

geerlingguy 5y ago
The very temporary distinction of having the most active users connected to the network.

Ndymium 5y ago

IRCCloud users have been banned from connecting to Freenode: https://twitter.com/IRCCloud/status/1404153550159159298 https://twitter.com/IRCCloud/status/1404153550159159298

d23 5y ago

Malicious individuals invariably rely on and take advantage of good faith interpretations of their behavior. This is the only way they are able to continue their abuse for so long. Judge people by their actions.

deckard1 5y ago

This drama all reminds me of what happened at DALnet in the early 2000s. A few overzealous IRCops started a purge of all the warez/mp3 scene channels. Everyone suspected RIAA put the pressure on them. I was a channel op with a handful of friends at the time of a popular channel (100-200 members on average). One day I logged on and the channel was invite only. They took the channel via their ChanServ service. Everyone I know either moved to EFnet or Undernet.

manabi 5y ago
That's not quite how it happened, DALnet suffered prolonged DDoS assaults that took the network offline for several weeks. (I remember it being a couple of months.) Once they got past the DDoS was when they banned all file trading. It wasn't just warez and mp3 channels, it also targeted manga scanlation and anime fansub groups. The reasoning I heard was that the DDoS was triggered by someone getting upset about something that happened in a file-trading channel, and decided to DDoS the entire network as a result. After being offline for so long from the attack, DALnet admins wanted nothing to do with that kind of bullshit again and just purged it all. I really can't say that I blame them.

fairity 5y ago

Are there usage statistics that support or invalidate the theory that a majority of active users have migrated from Freenode to Libera?

SaberUK 5y ago
https://isfreenodedeadyet.com/ https://isfreenodedeadyet.com/ and https://netsplit.de/networks/top10.php https://netsplit.de/networks/top10.php are useful. The former has PRIVMSG (message) statistics which show that Libera Chat is considerably more active than freenode despite having less total users (for now, the crossover point is predicted to be the 26th and it's been moving closer and closer for days).

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