7 ms·

Because if you don't you'll end up with fewer businesses, which will concentrate wealth, which has documented negative effects on society.

yoz-y 5y ago
The article, most people here, and the reality disagrees with that. The point is that all the giants are elsewhere. Case in point as mentioned elsewhere: we actually have ISP competition here.
- SOMA_BOFH 5y ago
  and as a result of this, you're more innovative how...?
  - coldtea 5y ago
    In that we have better internet for cheaper prices than the US, for example. Between national and state debts, Trump and the Dems electing a zombie, rampant crime, police brutality 10x that of the EU, no work-life balance, average citizens that are the laughing stock of the West education wise, huge inequality, depression and the opioeid epidemic, crumbling infrastructure, the largest incarceration rate per capita in the world, the western capital of nutty religious people and gun-lovers, how does your innovation work for you?
    - refurb 5y ago
      This reads like a rant from someone whose entire view of the US is based on Reddit posts.
    - kortilla 5y ago
      > how does your innovation work for you? Well it has produced the top tech companies and (most of the) top research universities in the world. So pretty well.
      - SOMA_BOFH 5y ago
        anecdotal
      - coldtea 5y ago
        And what exactly does the average citizen of the US gets out of this, given the above? Not even the tax money of those "top tech companies". Heck, some of those come to us (e.g. Ireland). As for their products, we can buy them just fine as well.
        joelbluminator 5y ago
        This. Facebook, Google et al are American but will do everything they can to lock profits in low tax regions outside the U.S and they're also hiring more and more outside the U.S If Facebook stopped being American tomorrow I'm not sure the effect will be noticeable.
  - yoz-y 5y ago
    I’m not claiming we are more innovative as a result. As a result we have much better mobile plans for example. Every time I see a Ting ad I marvel at how expensive their plans are, and then they compare that to the likes of Verizon…
  - sologoub 5y ago
    So in ISP world, EU has better offerings than most of US, though US had a good 2020 when it comes to download speeds: https://fairinternetreport.com/research/usa-vs-europe-internet-speed-analysis https://fairinternetreport.com/research/usa-vs-europe-intern... However, upload speeds are still a joke in the US - I can’t buy more than 35mbps up, period. That comes with 1gbps down (in reality that’s never stable, so more like 800-900mbps). At previous home I had options of two providers with one offering symmetrical 1gbps fiber - that’s fairly rare in US. Costs are another issue - US ~$61 per month, OECD average is ~$37: https://www.broadbandsearch.net/blog/internet-costs-compared-worldwide https://www.broadbandsearch.net/blog/internet-costs-compared... Now this is mostly services innovation, not telecom tech itself, but still has very tangible benefits to consumers and barriers to operating a business.
- oytis 5y ago
  In reality there is some lag until effects are seen. Europe's economy has been huge very recently, and it's still significant, but the trend is that it's significance is shrinking as it can't keep up with American and Asian growth
  - imtringued 5y ago
    I agree but this isn't a done deal. The potential is there and there is no reason why it shouldn't be able to compete.
onion2k 5y ago
You'll end up with fewer businesses, but the ones that won't get started are the ones people aren't really willing to put effort in to starting. You'll only really lose the easy "fill in a form and off you go" businesses. I don't imagine that's much of a loss. If someone has an idea, and a real drive to start, then they can start pretty much anywhere, even if it isn't super simple to register a company. So, really, making it easy to start a business just filters out the people who aren't especially passionate. The rest will battle through (and complain about the red tape while they do.) And let's face it - the sort of businesses that HN readers want to start up are rarely that simple. Most people here are dealing with equity, vesting, cliffs, angel investors, VC money, cross-state and international taxation etc. We're not put off by something being a bit harder. Why should other people be? So, while you're right that there might be fewer businesses, the EU doesn't actually stop people starting if they really want to. It's also worth pointing out that if someone is falling at the hurdle of just registering and starting a company then the chance of success is very low. There are going to be much harder challenges ahead even where company formation is complicated. It's also worth noting that some parts of the EU make it a lot easier to start even than the US. Estonia's e-residency programme makes it incredibly easy to register for limited citizenship and start a digital business based there.
- yoz-y 5y ago
  The major problem in EU is not really starting the companies. Most countries have ways to incorporate by filing a form and sending an email or two. The problem though is financing, French investors for example are really stingy and you won’t get somebody to just throw a few millions at you to see if you succeed. France has decided to build the “French Silicon Valley” multiple times by grouping schools and companies together, providing facilities and so on. But it always fails because there is no VC money pool. If you start a company here, better think about profitability from the get go.
  - tluyben2 5y ago
    This is the core: enough smart folk, enough ideas etc but people here sit on their money. EU investors invest in sure things and sure things are just not FAANGS when they start out. The appetite for risk is close to 0. You can see this when getting into EU incubators who try to mimic HN: they are absolutely waiting for that thing to happen where they are sure they will have ROI at which moment you can just walk to a bank or to a much better investor. This slows things down but mostly kills them entirely.
imiric 5y ago
> concentrate wealth Kind of like AT&T, Alphabet, Comcast and Disney? Not to invoke whataboutism, but wealth concentration is as much of an issue in the US, if not more.
developer93 5y ago
Most millionaires aren't from/based in the US? I feel like European red tape mediates the concentration of wealth somewhat compared to the US

yoz-y 5y ago

The article, most people here, and the reality disagrees with that. The point is that all the giants are elsewhere. Case in point as mentioned elsewhere: we actually have ISP competition here.

SOMA_BOFH 5y ago
and as a result of this, you're more innovative how...?
- coldtea 5y ago
  In that we have better internet for cheaper prices than the US, for example. Between national and state debts, Trump and the Dems electing a zombie, rampant crime, police brutality 10x that of the EU, no work-life balance, average citizens that are the laughing stock of the West education wise, huge inequality, depression and the opioeid epidemic, crumbling infrastructure, the largest incarceration rate per capita in the world, the western capital of nutty religious people and gun-lovers, how does your innovation work for you?
  - refurb 5y ago
    This reads like a rant from someone whose entire view of the US is based on Reddit posts.
  - kortilla 5y ago
    > how does your innovation work for you? Well it has produced the top tech companies and (most of the) top research universities in the world. So pretty well.
    - SOMA_BOFH 5y ago
      anecdotal
    - coldtea 5y ago
      And what exactly does the average citizen of the US gets out of this, given the above? Not even the tax money of those "top tech companies". Heck, some of those come to us (e.g. Ireland). As for their products, we can buy them just fine as well.
      - joelbluminator 5y ago
        This. Facebook, Google et al are American but will do everything they can to lock profits in low tax regions outside the U.S and they're also hiring more and more outside the U.S If Facebook stopped being American tomorrow I'm not sure the effect will be noticeable.
- yoz-y 5y ago
  I’m not claiming we are more innovative as a result. As a result we have much better mobile plans for example. Every time I see a Ting ad I marvel at how expensive their plans are, and then they compare that to the likes of Verizon…
- sologoub 5y ago
  So in ISP world, EU has better offerings than most of US, though US had a good 2020 when it comes to download speeds: https://fairinternetreport.com/research/usa-vs-europe-internet-speed-analysis https://fairinternetreport.com/research/usa-vs-europe-intern... However, upload speeds are still a joke in the US - I can’t buy more than 35mbps up, period. That comes with 1gbps down (in reality that’s never stable, so more like 800-900mbps). At previous home I had options of two providers with one offering symmetrical 1gbps fiber - that’s fairly rare in US. Costs are another issue - US ~$61 per month, OECD average is ~$37: https://www.broadbandsearch.net/blog/internet-costs-compared-worldwide https://www.broadbandsearch.net/blog/internet-costs-compared... Now this is mostly services innovation, not telecom tech itself, but still has very tangible benefits to consumers and barriers to operating a business.
oytis 5y ago
In reality there is some lag until effects are seen. Europe's economy has been huge very recently, and it's still significant, but the trend is that it's significance is shrinking as it can't keep up with American and Asian growth
- imtringued 5y ago
  I agree but this isn't a done deal. The potential is there and there is no reason why it shouldn't be able to compete.

onion2k 5y ago

You'll end up with fewer businesses, but the ones that won't get started are the ones people aren't really willing to put effort in to starting. You'll only really lose the easy "fill in a form and off you go" businesses. I don't imagine that's much of a loss. If someone has an idea, and a real drive to start, then they can start pretty much anywhere, even if it isn't super simple to register a company. So, really, making it easy to start a business just filters out the people who aren't especially passionate. The rest will battle through (and complain about the red tape while they do.) And let's face it - the sort of businesses that HN readers want to start up are rarely that simple. Most people here are dealing with equity, vesting, cliffs, angel investors, VC money, cross-state and international taxation etc. We're not put off by something being a bit harder. Why should other people be? So, while you're right that there might be fewer businesses, the EU doesn't actually stop people starting if they really want to. It's also worth pointing out that if someone is falling at the hurdle of just registering and starting a company then the chance of success is very low. There are going to be much harder challenges ahead even where company formation is complicated. It's also worth noting that some parts of the EU make it a lot easier to start even than the US. Estonia's e-residency programme makes it incredibly easy to register for limited citizenship and start a digital business based there.

yoz-y 5y ago
The major problem in EU is not really starting the companies. Most countries have ways to incorporate by filing a form and sending an email or two. The problem though is financing, French investors for example are really stingy and you won’t get somebody to just throw a few millions at you to see if you succeed. France has decided to build the “French Silicon Valley” multiple times by grouping schools and companies together, providing facilities and so on. But it always fails because there is no VC money pool. If you start a company here, better think about profitability from the get go.
- tluyben2 5y ago
  This is the core: enough smart folk, enough ideas etc but people here sit on their money. EU investors invest in sure things and sure things are just not FAANGS when they start out. The appetite for risk is close to 0. You can see this when getting into EU incubators who try to mimic HN: they are absolutely waiting for that thing to happen where they are sure they will have ROI at which moment you can just walk to a bank or to a much better investor. This slows things down but mostly kills them entirely.

imiric 5y ago

> concentrate wealth Kind of like AT&T, Alphabet, Comcast and Disney? Not to invoke whataboutism, but wealth concentration is as much of an issue in the US, if not more.

developer93 5y ago

Most millionaires aren't from/based in the US? I feel like European red tape mediates the concentration of wealth somewhat compared to the US