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Is anybody advocating for them or encouraging them in any way? I can’t think of a single group which aims to highlight men, uplift men, and encourage masculine

Is anybody advocating for them or encouraging them in any way? I can’t think of a single group which aims to highlight men, uplift men, and encourage masculine behavior. These guys grew up in a school system of almost entirely women teachers, and popular media tells them that if they are successful in any way, it is due to oppression. It’s no wonder why they’re not succeeding. We spent the last 15 years telling them that their success is evil. Who are their role models supposed to be exactly?

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
cjohnson318 5y ago
Oh please. There's nothing wrong with the way female teachers teach.
- thepasswordis 5y ago
  Is that what I said? I said that these young men don't have strong positive male role models.
  - cjohnson318 5y ago
    > These guys grew up in a school system of almost entirely women teachers... Implies there's something wrong with the way women teach. If you meant to say, "young men don't have strong positive male role models", something most people would agree with, then you should have said that.
    - shkkmo 5y ago
      > Implies there's something wrong with the way women teach. No, you are uncharitably reading that into the statement.
- voldacar 5y ago
  I don't think you get it. Young men today grow up almost entirely in female-dominated spaces. That is not normal historically. In fact it would be strange if it didn't lead to any pathologies.
  - cjohnson318 5y ago
    > Young men today grow up almost entirely in female-dominated spaces. That's bullshit. In American government, women make up roughly 30% of leadership positions. At work, unless you're a waiter, nurse, primary/secondary school teacher, or in HR, you're surrounded by men, and you only see more and more men the higher up you go. > That is not normal historically. That's asinine bullshit. Historical norms are not a model for current norms. A lot of people have plumbing, electricity, and representative government now, which is not normal historically. What I'm saying is, your appeal to historical norms is arbitrary and thoroughly shit. Y'all are making women out to be devils and they're not. There's a college word for that (I had to look it up) it's called "misogyny". Ain't nothing wrong with women, or having women teachers, or women legislators, or women doctors and lawyers. Jfc, I literally can't believe I have to spell all this out in 2021.
- NaturalPhallacy 5y ago
  >Teachers 'give higher marks to girls' >When it comes to teachers' marking, the study says there is a consistent pattern of girls' work being "marked up". >Teachers are said to reward "organisational skills, good behaviour and compliance" rather than objectively marking pupils' work. https://www.bbc.com/news/education-31751672 https://www.bbc.com/news/education-31751672
  - cjohnson318 5y ago
    This study did not study male and female teachers independently, so this does support the claim that female teachers are any different (or worse) than male teachers. Furthermore, it is notoriously difficult to get to causation from correlation. If you'd like to read more about this, check out Judea Pearl's work.
88840-8855 5y ago
I have a good friend who is working in HR. She used to be in hiring, now she is in the talent and development stream. We are not in the same company. A few weeks ago I was speaking about my impression that my company is forcing women into promotions and positions just for the sake of reaching targets. I said that it felt unfair towards male colleagues. Her reply was something like this: Men had the advantage for thousands of years, now it is OK if they suffer and that women receive the advantage. This will balance it out. I disagreed because the peers that those girls are competing against were not part of the "bad white old man" system. She disagreed and said that some "eye for eye is necassary".
- im3w1l 5y ago
  I just can't imagine being friends with such a person tbh.
- Mountain_Skies 5y ago
  In theory such companies should end up imploding from valuing genital configuration over talent which is why there's so much pressure on the various levels of government to enshrine this type of behavior into law so all competitors will likewise be as hobbled by it.
  - nullifidian 5y ago
    Competitors can already be sued into oblivion with the help of the disparate impact (quota) jurisprudence. That ship has sailed.
- cjohnson318 5y ago
  In the shale boom of the mid 2000's, Halliburton hired a lot of women engineers right out of college. My understanding (from male colleagues) was that if they had the minimum requirements and had no red flags, then they were rubber stamped. The result was that they were all tough as nails and ran a rig as well as any man. There was literally no difference between them and their male counterparts. As others have observed, capability is uniformly distributed, opportunity is not.
teachrdan 5y ago
There seem to be any number of outlets promoting men and encouraging masculine behavior. (however that may be precisely defined) * Joe Rogan is the highest paid podcaster of all time, and has 190 million downloads a month * Ben Shapiro has the number 6 most-listened to podcast in the US * Fox News is the highest rated news program in the US To your point that most women teachers are women: That's true because women are often channeled into careers that are lower paid and lower status. This is even true within careers. For example, women are 50% of assistant professors, but only 34% of full time professors. So who could young men look up to as role models? Well, the obvious answer would be anyone who is successful and doing good in the world, regardless of gender. But even if they are only capable of having male role models, they could look up to the 66% of full professors who are men; the 100% of US presidents who are men; the professional athletes who are most celebrated, which is overwhelmingly men -- all 10 of the top 10 best paid athletes are men. It's easy for people who feel like losers to blame the "other." It's very easy for men who feel like losers to blame all their problems on women. But by any objective standard, there are plenty of individuals and groups that support and promote men. Whatever the underlying cause is for this phenomenon, it's unlikely to be women. https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/12/10/new-analysis-faculty-pay-representation#:~:text=Women%20are%2050%20percent%20of,percent%20of%20the%20U.S.%20population https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/12/10/new-ana.... https://www.forbes.com/sites/brettknight/2021/05/12/the-worlds-10-highest-paid-athletes-conor-mcgregor-leads-a-group-of-sports-stars-unfazed-by-the-pandemic/?sh=3ac3d64926f4 https://www.forbes.com/sites/brettknight/2021/05/12/the-worl...
- iammisc 5y ago
  Why are all your 'masculine' programs conservative? Think about it and therein lies the problem.
spcebar 5y ago
Your argument reads like Palahniuk's satircal message in Fight Club. These concepts of masculinity our culture pines for are destructive and unproductive. A woman is no less qualified to raise a man than a man. No one has told them their success is evil. You're conflating women being told their success is success with men being shunned. There's a perception that women and minority groups have somehow gained an advantage in the last 30 years. What they've gained is some measure of equality with white males who still earn more, are more likely to get jobs and aren't stigmatized for their existence. If you believe white males are stigmatized for their existence, consider the stereotypes, lack of representation, and abuse women and minority groups face on a daily basis. If a man can only find a role model in a man with x testosterone level, we are in dire shape as a society. -- Forgive typos, I'm on my phone.
- NaturalPhallacy 5y ago
  >A woman is no less qualified to raise a man than a man. It's not that women aren't qualified, it's that children need father figures as much as they need mother figures: >72% of juvenile murderers, and 60% of rapists came from single mother homes. Chuck Colson, “How Shall We Live?” Tyndale House , 2004, p.323 >“The strongest predictor of whether a person will end up in prison, is that they were raised by a single parent”. C.C. Harper and S.S. McLanahan, “Father Absence and Youth Incarceration”, Paper presented at the Annual Meeting of the American Sociological Assoc., San Francisco, CA, 1998 >“After controlling for single motherhood, the difference between black and white crime rates disappeared.” Progressive Policy Institute, 1990, quoted by David Blankenhorn, “Fatherless America: Confronting Our Most Urgent Social Problem,” New York, Harper Perennial, 1996, p.31 Way more stats here: https://www.fixfamilycourts.com/single-mother-home-statistics/ https://www.fixfamilycourts.com/single-mother-home-statistic...
  - shrimp_emoji 5y ago
    I recall but can't find a meta-analysis which found that over 80% of children in single mother households read into stats with no critical thought. Poverty is a more convincing factor in the way people raised by single parents turn out than that they didn't have a father figure (traditionally the financial provider btw).

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

cjohnson318 5y ago

Oh please. There's nothing wrong with the way female teachers teach.

thepasswordis 5y ago
Is that what I said? I said that these young men don't have strong positive male role models.
- cjohnson318 5y ago
  > These guys grew up in a school system of almost entirely women teachers... Implies there's something wrong with the way women teach. If you meant to say, "young men don't have strong positive male role models", something most people would agree with, then you should have said that.
  - shkkmo 5y ago
    > Implies there's something wrong with the way women teach. No, you are uncharitably reading that into the statement.
voldacar 5y ago
I don't think you get it. Young men today grow up almost entirely in female-dominated spaces. That is not normal historically. In fact it would be strange if it didn't lead to any pathologies.
- cjohnson318 5y ago
  > Young men today grow up almost entirely in female-dominated spaces. That's bullshit. In American government, women make up roughly 30% of leadership positions. At work, unless you're a waiter, nurse, primary/secondary school teacher, or in HR, you're surrounded by men, and you only see more and more men the higher up you go. > That is not normal historically. That's asinine bullshit. Historical norms are not a model for current norms. A lot of people have plumbing, electricity, and representative government now, which is not normal historically. What I'm saying is, your appeal to historical norms is arbitrary and thoroughly shit. Y'all are making women out to be devils and they're not. There's a college word for that (I had to look it up) it's called "misogyny". Ain't nothing wrong with women, or having women teachers, or women legislators, or women doctors and lawyers. Jfc, I literally can't believe I have to spell all this out in 2021.
NaturalPhallacy 5y ago
>Teachers 'give higher marks to girls' >When it comes to teachers' marking, the study says there is a consistent pattern of girls' work being "marked up". >Teachers are said to reward "organisational skills, good behaviour and compliance" rather than objectively marking pupils' work. https://www.bbc.com/news/education-31751672 https://www.bbc.com/news/education-31751672
- cjohnson318 5y ago
  This study did not study male and female teachers independently, so this does support the claim that female teachers are any different (or worse) than male teachers. Furthermore, it is notoriously difficult to get to causation from correlation. If you'd like to read more about this, check out Judea Pearl's work.

88840-8855 5y ago

I have a good friend who is working in HR. She used to be in hiring, now she is in the talent and development stream. We are not in the same company. A few weeks ago I was speaking about my impression that my company is forcing women into promotions and positions just for the sake of reaching targets. I said that it felt unfair towards male colleagues. Her reply was something like this: Men had the advantage for thousands of years, now it is OK if they suffer and that women receive the advantage. This will balance it out. I disagreed because the peers that those girls are competing against were not part of the "bad white old man" system. She disagreed and said that some "eye for eye is necassary".

im3w1l 5y ago
I just can't imagine being friends with such a person tbh.
Mountain_Skies 5y ago
In theory such companies should end up imploding from valuing genital configuration over talent which is why there's so much pressure on the various levels of government to enshrine this type of behavior into law so all competitors will likewise be as hobbled by it.
- nullifidian 5y ago
  Competitors can already be sued into oblivion with the help of the disparate impact (quota) jurisprudence. That ship has sailed.
cjohnson318 5y ago
In the shale boom of the mid 2000's, Halliburton hired a lot of women engineers right out of college. My understanding (from male colleagues) was that if they had the minimum requirements and had no red flags, then they were rubber stamped. The result was that they were all tough as nails and ran a rig as well as any man. There was literally no difference between them and their male counterparts. As others have observed, capability is uniformly distributed, opportunity is not.

teachrdan 5y ago

There seem to be any number of outlets promoting men and encouraging masculine behavior. (however that may be precisely defined) * Joe Rogan is the highest paid podcaster of all time, and has 190 million downloads a month * Ben Shapiro has the number 6 most-listened to podcast in the US * Fox News is the highest rated news program in the US To your point that most women teachers are women: That's true because women are often channeled into careers that are lower paid and lower status. This is even true within careers. For example, women are 50% of assistant professors, but only 34% of full time professors. So who could young men look up to as role models? Well, the obvious answer would be anyone who is successful and doing good in the world, regardless of gender. But even if they are only capable of having male role models, they could look up to the 66% of full professors who are men; the 100% of US presidents who are men; the professional athletes who are most celebrated, which is overwhelmingly men -- all 10 of the top 10 best paid athletes are men. It's easy for people who feel like losers to blame the "other." It's very easy for men who feel like losers to blame all their problems on women. But by any objective standard, there are plenty of individuals and groups that support and promote men. Whatever the underlying cause is for this phenomenon, it's unlikely to be women. https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/12/10/new-analysis-faculty-pay-representation#:~:text=Women%20are%2050%20percent%20of,percent%20of%20the%20U.S.%20population https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/12/10/new-ana.... https://www.forbes.com/sites/brettknight/2021/05/12/the-worlds-10-highest-paid-athletes-conor-mcgregor-leads-a-group-of-sports-stars-unfazed-by-the-pandemic/?sh=3ac3d64926f4 https://www.forbes.com/sites/brettknight/2021/05/12/the-worl...

iammisc 5y ago
Why are all your 'masculine' programs conservative? Think about it and therein lies the problem.

spcebar 5y ago

Your argument reads like Palahniuk's satircal message in Fight Club. These concepts of masculinity our culture pines for are destructive and unproductive. A woman is no less qualified to raise a man than a man. No one has told them their success is evil. You're conflating women being told their success is success with men being shunned. There's a perception that women and minority groups have somehow gained an advantage in the last 30 years. What they've gained is some measure of equality with white males who still earn more, are more likely to get jobs and aren't stigmatized for their existence. If you believe white males are stigmatized for their existence, consider the stereotypes, lack of representation, and abuse women and minority groups face on a daily basis. If a man can only find a role model in a man with x testosterone level, we are in dire shape as a society. -- Forgive typos, I'm on my phone.

NaturalPhallacy 5y ago
>A woman is no less qualified to raise a man than a man. It's not that women aren't qualified, it's that children need father figures as much as they need mother figures: >72% of juvenile murderers, and 60% of rapists came from single mother homes. Chuck Colson, “How Shall We Live?” Tyndale House , 2004, p.323 >“The strongest predictor of whether a person will end up in prison, is that they were raised by a single parent”. C.C. Harper and S.S. McLanahan, “Father Absence and Youth Incarceration”, Paper presented at the Annual Meeting of the American Sociological Assoc., San Francisco, CA, 1998 >“After controlling for single motherhood, the difference between black and white crime rates disappeared.” Progressive Policy Institute, 1990, quoted by David Blankenhorn, “Fatherless America: Confronting Our Most Urgent Social Problem,” New York, Harper Perennial, 1996, p.31 Way more stats here: https://www.fixfamilycourts.com/single-mother-home-statistics/ https://www.fixfamilycourts.com/single-mother-home-statistic...
- shrimp_emoji 5y ago
  I recall but can't find a meta-analysis which found that over 80% of children in single mother households read into stats with no critical thought. Poverty is a more convincing factor in the way people raised by single parents turn out than that they didn't have a father figure (traditionally the financial provider btw).