10 ms·

Legislation would unmask third-party sellers, but Amazon is fighting it

178 points by ProAm 5y ago

Clent 5y ago
If the only argument is having to list a home address then a PO Box resolves the privacy issue.
- frumper 5y ago
  When I setup a small online business, that was one of the first things I did. It doesn't cost much at all, and was very easy.
  - throwawayboise 5y ago
    In my experience, a "real" address is needed somewhere. PO Boxes are fine for many things, but for process service, etc. the part of your state government that is responsible for business entities will want a real address.
    - Scoundreller 5y ago
      It’s more expensive, but a lawyer can serve that role.
    - technofiend 5y ago
      So you've never heard of competitive addressing, then. Instead of PO BOX 1234, Anytown, ST USA you use Street Address of Post Office, Unit # PO BOX Number, Anytown ST USA. In addition to giving you a "real" street address, it works for any services unable to otherwise deliver to a PO BOX like UPS, Fedex or DHL, because as long as they deliver during business hours, the post office will sign for your package. I use this to great effect as package theft is so rampant in my area. It does add a one day delay since the package is signed for by my post office and not delivered into my po box until the next day. And I've had to call and complain to Amazon a few times until they stopped trying to use their vans to deliver to that address. The drivers rarely read the instructions that say "You must deliver during business hours as this is a post office." When Amazon actually ships via USPS to my po box I get the packages same day as delivery so it's the best of all scenarios. Really I don't know why people have a such hate on for the post office. I love it. https://postalpro.usps.com/mailing/competitivepoboxes https://postalpro.usps.com/mailing/competitivepoboxes But yeah most likely a process server will leave the post office frustrated. I'm not sure if that's a bug or a feature. :-)
      - skak 5y ago
        The only reason people on HN have hate for the post office is they are influenced by capitalists who want another industry to “disrupt.” American oligarchs have been declaring war on public services since the New Deal, and over time American workers have sadly been propagandized to buy into it. As a result, the U.S. Post Office is not what it used to be (it used to offer banking services!!!) but it’s still one of the best things we have left. Not to mention its glowing record of equal employment.
        handrous 5y ago
        Someone on HN once mentioned that anti-USPO plays are likely aimed at "freeing up" all the prime real estate the USPO owns in cities all over the country for private buyers, which was the thing that finally made some people and groups' evident hate and ill-wishing for the post office make sense to me. I'm sure killing some competition is also a factor for certain interests, but that was never enough, I thought, to explain all the forces working against them.
        skak 5y ago
        The real estate effort makes sense because it gives an objective to organize around. In the case I made, I should probably elaborate. I don’t think there are many groups of people wanting to take over mail delivery for profit, or that those groups are terribly committed. I think it more often serves as an ideological punching bag that represents public services in general. The USPS is often cited in arguments for why public healthcare supposedly can never work, for example, despite it’s success in most developed nations. This depends on attacking public services in general. Currently, maintaining this sentiment for the private sector against the public sector is important to the effort to withhold IP of the coronavirus vaccine from the third world. IP laws are often complained about by HN readers, but IP itself is not. This conflict between regulation and anarchy is an eternal contradiction in the entrepreneurial pursuit, but public services which serve working people equally are ideologically beyond the pale, enemies of the entrepreneurial spirit.
        5y ago
    - treeman79 5y ago
      A bus stop is a valid address for some things.
RcouF1uZ4gsC 5y ago
This whole legislation is a huge waste of time as a way to fight fraud and fake products. Do you really expect the consumer to try to track down some person via their address (which may be a PO Box) and try to sue them, only to have them say their merchandise was actually mixed with others and so they are not liable? The much better version is to make Amazon fully liable for everything they sell, even third party merchandise. Amazon can then figure out what it needs to do to fix the issue. Consumers shouldn’t have to worry about it.
- tomschlick 5y ago
  > Do you really expect the consumer to try to track down some person via their address Product manufacturers track these unauthorized sellers and do pretty deep investigations into who they are to stop counterfeit / unauthorized distribution. Source: I worked on software that tracked pricing and unauthorized sellers for 4 years.
  - blairanderson 5y ago
    Very FEW product manufacturers track these unauthorized sellers. Amazon should require the store name to MATCH the llc/corp name and they should require a US registered agent to be publicly displayed as well. Source: I actively manage about 30 different vendor/seller accounts as a consultant. Tracking sellers is a fools errand.
    - tomschlick 5y ago
      That's absolutely false in my experience. I can't speak for who I worked for or our large client list, but there were quite a few fortune 50/100 companies in there, and many many others monitoring MAP and unauthorized sellers. Tooling to track down unauthorized sellers was one of the top features that was requested and used. You'll often see sites like Amazon match the pricing of a smaller unauthorized seller. Amazon's response to a MAP enforcement email in that case is when you stop the other guy, we will go back to MAP. So it is very important to stay on top of those sellers.
lucioperca 5y ago
How is that even an issue for the HN-folks? This clearly takes power away from amazon, as for example this helps with growing business relations outside of amazon (you might start buying directly from the seller at some point).
- paxys 5y ago
  Everyone on this forum is a temporarily embarrassed big tech founder/CEO who hates regulations which let the little guys compete.
  - IG_Semmelweiss 5y ago
    What are these "regulations" that help little guys compete? If anything, regulations hinder little guys from competing. Whos passing laws? Who is giving money to politicians? Hint: its not the tutors, community banks and its not the bodegas contributing to pols. Its the universities, monster banks, and supermarket chains.
    - username90 5y ago
      The little guy wont compete with Amazon, they will however sell and buy stuff at Amazon.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
eigenvector 5y ago
An important and related fact, addressed in the article, is that Amazon currently escapes consumer product liability laws because they are neither seller nor manufacturer. But they also cannot tell you with any degree of precision who the seller or manufacturer is. There is a public interest in making /someone/ liable for defective products, as it provides a incentive for sellers to do due diligence on what they sell. The party most able to root out sellers of defective or counterfeit goods is probably Amazon, but they currently have no incentive to do so as the liability is offloaded to judgement-proof Marketplace sellers. Amazon's business innovation here is figuring out how to run a multi billion dollar retail business without product liability, and that's negative for society.
- wahern 5y ago
  At least in California they are liable in tort: https://www.natlawreview.com/article/another-court-gets-hover-board-online-marketplace-liability-defective-products https://www.natlawreview.com/article/another-court-gets-hove... > California’s Court of Appeal (Second Appellate District) determined that Amazon could be held strictly liable for injuries a consumer suffered from a defective hoverboard she bought from the retailer, even though Amazon neither manufactured nor sold the product. > The plaintiff in this latest case, Kisha Loomis, bought a hoverboard through the Amazon marketplace. The Amazon marketplace carries both products sold by Amazon and by third parties. In this case, the hoverboard was sold by a Chinese company called SMILETO. > The Court of Appeal... [held] that a party who has control over and is integral to the chain of commerce, and receives a financial benefit from it, is strictly liable for injury caused by a product’s defects.
  - Animats 5y ago
    Oh, that's important, and new. Here's the actual decision in Loomis vs. Amazon.[1] Amazon has been fighting that case since 2016, and last April, they lost at the appellate level in California. But the plaintiff hasn't won damages yet; the case will now be sent back to the LA Superior Court where discovery will continue; a trial date is expected to be set in 2022. So, in California, you can now make product liability claims against Amazon, despite their terms and conditions. [1] https://cases.justia.com/static/pdf-js/web/?file=/california/court-of-appeal/2021-b297995.pdf https://cases.justia.com/static/pdf-js/web/?file=/california...
walrus01 5y ago
I recently purchased a set of full ear headphones with boom microphone from Amazon. From a 'five star' reviewed product and vendor. It came with a printed piece of paper in the box from the vendor offering a $15 gift card if I left a five star review for the product and then sent a screenshot to the company. Such shady behavior. The headphones are only average quality.
- rStar 5y ago
  this has been going on for years. amazon benefits, so they allow the practice.
- oh_sigh 5y ago
  I got one of those once, and wrote a review saying that this seller is paying for 5 star reviews and even though the product seemed fine, be wary of 5 star reviews. Amazon removed my review as going against the terms of service.
  - zentiggr 5y ago
    Until Amazon has financial liability for fake/paid reviews, they will never go away.
  - avidiax 5y ago
    Maybe leave the standard glowing 5-star review, plus a picture of the headphones with the card visible.
- paulpauper 5y ago
  As many have already mentioned in prior discussions, 5-star reviews are meaningless and Amazon does not care.
- whoza 5y ago
  I had a similar experience in April. I reported the seller to Amazon, including lots of evidence (links to reviews by other buyers complaining about the same thing, etc.) They assured me that they would take care of it, but the product is still available and it seems that nothing has changed.
leipert 5y ago
Germany just passed a law that forces Amazon, eBay (or any platform) to be transparent about who you are buying from (company / individuals). Additionally they need to be transparent about how they rank search result and whether the results include paid placements. German source here: https://www.golem.de/news/bundestag-amazon-und-ebay-zu-mehr-transparenz-verdonnert-2106-157235.html https://www.golem.de/news/bundestag-amazon-und-ebay-zu-mehr-...
IG_Semmelweiss 5y ago
For anyone believing amazon's claim that servicing vendor complaints of copycats/trademark infringers was a "hard" problem I give you exhibit A. Its not hard. Amazon is just not interested in fixing it
cartoonworld 5y ago
This is currently a big pain in the butt for me. I sometimes buy specialized tools and equipment from Amazon due to the convenience of Amazon's great catalog and suggestion system, it can be quite useful. However, sometimes I receive items that are clearly B-stock, returns, mislabeled defective, improperly packaged, etc from these third party sellers who "win the buy box". The subtle difference between useful and completely useless is really hard to demonstrate to someone who is not familiar with the usage and normal appearance of these products. When I have a problem with some of these specialized industrial products I often cannot simply return them for service or warranty to the reseller, I am required to return them to the authorized reseller (Amazon is often one of these) for warranty service. The problem with this is that the manufacturer often only warranties their product when sold from their authorized reseller. Even though Amazon may be an official reseller affiliate, the third party reseller that I purchased it from (again, FBA, but sold by GUYA JICKSV LLC) is not on this list! In order to get the warranty service I now have to go to the manufacturer, who is wary of theft, counterfeit, returns, and a really surprising number of times I discover that there is a part missing or duplicate parts, and this renders the warranty void. Dealing with the manufacturers in these situations is really annoying and often fruitless. To them its just one unit and they do industrial sales volume, but to me it is several hundred dollars and days of hassle. This costs me much more money than the cost of replacing the thing. I am now very wary of buying certain types of products from Amazon, as they often appear to be sold by Amazon, but is actually not sold by Amazon, but only technically sold by amazon because of this buy box behavior. Its is incredibly opaque, error prone, and nobody cares except me and my customers (with whom I sure do have a relationship, unlike the Amazon seller does with me.) As a result, I have reduced my purchasing from Amazon. Cest la vie.

178 points by ProAm 5y ago

Clent 5y ago

If the only argument is having to list a home address then a PO Box resolves the privacy issue.

frumper 5y ago
When I setup a small online business, that was one of the first things I did. It doesn't cost much at all, and was very easy.
- throwawayboise 5y ago
  In my experience, a "real" address is needed somewhere. PO Boxes are fine for many things, but for process service, etc. the part of your state government that is responsible for business entities will want a real address.
  - Scoundreller 5y ago
    It’s more expensive, but a lawyer can serve that role.
  - technofiend 5y ago
    So you've never heard of competitive addressing, then. Instead of PO BOX 1234, Anytown, ST USA you use Street Address of Post Office, Unit # PO BOX Number, Anytown ST USA. In addition to giving you a "real" street address, it works for any services unable to otherwise deliver to a PO BOX like UPS, Fedex or DHL, because as long as they deliver during business hours, the post office will sign for your package. I use this to great effect as package theft is so rampant in my area. It does add a one day delay since the package is signed for by my post office and not delivered into my po box until the next day. And I've had to call and complain to Amazon a few times until they stopped trying to use their vans to deliver to that address. The drivers rarely read the instructions that say "You must deliver during business hours as this is a post office." When Amazon actually ships via USPS to my po box I get the packages same day as delivery so it's the best of all scenarios. Really I don't know why people have a such hate on for the post office. I love it. https://postalpro.usps.com/mailing/competitivepoboxes https://postalpro.usps.com/mailing/competitivepoboxes But yeah most likely a process server will leave the post office frustrated. I'm not sure if that's a bug or a feature. :-)
    - skak 5y ago
      The only reason people on HN have hate for the post office is they are influenced by capitalists who want another industry to “disrupt.” American oligarchs have been declaring war on public services since the New Deal, and over time American workers have sadly been propagandized to buy into it. As a result, the U.S. Post Office is not what it used to be (it used to offer banking services!!!) but it’s still one of the best things we have left. Not to mention its glowing record of equal employment.
      - handrous 5y ago
        Someone on HN once mentioned that anti-USPO plays are likely aimed at "freeing up" all the prime real estate the USPO owns in cities all over the country for private buyers, which was the thing that finally made some people and groups' evident hate and ill-wishing for the post office make sense to me. I'm sure killing some competition is also a factor for certain interests, but that was never enough, I thought, to explain all the forces working against them.
        skak 5y ago
        The real estate effort makes sense because it gives an objective to organize around. In the case I made, I should probably elaborate. I don’t think there are many groups of people wanting to take over mail delivery for profit, or that those groups are terribly committed. I think it more often serves as an ideological punching bag that represents public services in general. The USPS is often cited in arguments for why public healthcare supposedly can never work, for example, despite it’s success in most developed nations. This depends on attacking public services in general. Currently, maintaining this sentiment for the private sector against the public sector is important to the effort to withhold IP of the coronavirus vaccine from the third world. IP laws are often complained about by HN readers, but IP itself is not. This conflict between regulation and anarchy is an eternal contradiction in the entrepreneurial pursuit, but public services which serve working people equally are ideologically beyond the pale, enemies of the entrepreneurial spirit.
        5y ago
  - treeman79 5y ago
    A bus stop is a valid address for some things.

RcouF1uZ4gsC 5y ago

This whole legislation is a huge waste of time as a way to fight fraud and fake products. Do you really expect the consumer to try to track down some person via their address (which may be a PO Box) and try to sue them, only to have them say their merchandise was actually mixed with others and so they are not liable? The much better version is to make Amazon fully liable for everything they sell, even third party merchandise. Amazon can then figure out what it needs to do to fix the issue. Consumers shouldn’t have to worry about it.

tomschlick 5y ago
> Do you really expect the consumer to try to track down some person via their address Product manufacturers track these unauthorized sellers and do pretty deep investigations into who they are to stop counterfeit / unauthorized distribution. Source: I worked on software that tracked pricing and unauthorized sellers for 4 years.
- blairanderson 5y ago
  Very FEW product manufacturers track these unauthorized sellers. Amazon should require the store name to MATCH the llc/corp name and they should require a US registered agent to be publicly displayed as well. Source: I actively manage about 30 different vendor/seller accounts as a consultant. Tracking sellers is a fools errand.
  - tomschlick 5y ago
    That's absolutely false in my experience. I can't speak for who I worked for or our large client list, but there were quite a few fortune 50/100 companies in there, and many many others monitoring MAP and unauthorized sellers. Tooling to track down unauthorized sellers was one of the top features that was requested and used. You'll often see sites like Amazon match the pricing of a smaller unauthorized seller. Amazon's response to a MAP enforcement email in that case is when you stop the other guy, we will go back to MAP. So it is very important to stay on top of those sellers.

lucioperca 5y ago

How is that even an issue for the HN-folks? This clearly takes power away from amazon, as for example this helps with growing business relations outside of amazon (you might start buying directly from the seller at some point).

paxys 5y ago
Everyone on this forum is a temporarily embarrassed big tech founder/CEO who hates regulations which let the little guys compete.
- IG_Semmelweiss 5y ago
  What are these "regulations" that help little guys compete? If anything, regulations hinder little guys from competing. Whos passing laws? Who is giving money to politicians? Hint: its not the tutors, community banks and its not the bodegas contributing to pols. Its the universities, monster banks, and supermarket chains.
  - username90 5y ago
    The little guy wont compete with Amazon, they will however sell and buy stuff at Amazon.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

eigenvector 5y ago

An important and related fact, addressed in the article, is that Amazon currently escapes consumer product liability laws because they are neither seller nor manufacturer. But they also cannot tell you with any degree of precision who the seller or manufacturer is. There is a public interest in making /someone/ liable for defective products, as it provides a incentive for sellers to do due diligence on what they sell. The party most able to root out sellers of defective or counterfeit goods is probably Amazon, but they currently have no incentive to do so as the liability is offloaded to judgement-proof Marketplace sellers. Amazon's business innovation here is figuring out how to run a multi billion dollar retail business without product liability, and that's negative for society.

wahern 5y ago
At least in California they are liable in tort: https://www.natlawreview.com/article/another-court-gets-hover-board-online-marketplace-liability-defective-products https://www.natlawreview.com/article/another-court-gets-hove... > California’s Court of Appeal (Second Appellate District) determined that Amazon could be held strictly liable for injuries a consumer suffered from a defective hoverboard she bought from the retailer, even though Amazon neither manufactured nor sold the product. > The plaintiff in this latest case, Kisha Loomis, bought a hoverboard through the Amazon marketplace. The Amazon marketplace carries both products sold by Amazon and by third parties. In this case, the hoverboard was sold by a Chinese company called SMILETO. > The Court of Appeal... [held] that a party who has control over and is integral to the chain of commerce, and receives a financial benefit from it, is strictly liable for injury caused by a product’s defects.
- Animats 5y ago
  Oh, that's important, and new. Here's the actual decision in Loomis vs. Amazon.[1] Amazon has been fighting that case since 2016, and last April, they lost at the appellate level in California. But the plaintiff hasn't won damages yet; the case will now be sent back to the LA Superior Court where discovery will continue; a trial date is expected to be set in 2022. So, in California, you can now make product liability claims against Amazon, despite their terms and conditions. [1] https://cases.justia.com/static/pdf-js/web/?file=/california/court-of-appeal/2021-b297995.pdf https://cases.justia.com/static/pdf-js/web/?file=/california...

walrus01 5y ago

I recently purchased a set of full ear headphones with boom microphone from Amazon. From a 'five star' reviewed product and vendor. It came with a printed piece of paper in the box from the vendor offering a $15 gift card if I left a five star review for the product and then sent a screenshot to the company. Such shady behavior. The headphones are only average quality.

rStar 5y ago
this has been going on for years. amazon benefits, so they allow the practice.
oh_sigh 5y ago
I got one of those once, and wrote a review saying that this seller is paying for 5 star reviews and even though the product seemed fine, be wary of 5 star reviews. Amazon removed my review as going against the terms of service.
- zentiggr 5y ago
  Until Amazon has financial liability for fake/paid reviews, they will never go away.
- avidiax 5y ago
  Maybe leave the standard glowing 5-star review, plus a picture of the headphones with the card visible.
paulpauper 5y ago
As many have already mentioned in prior discussions, 5-star reviews are meaningless and Amazon does not care.
whoza 5y ago
I had a similar experience in April. I reported the seller to Amazon, including lots of evidence (links to reviews by other buyers complaining about the same thing, etc.) They assured me that they would take care of it, but the product is still available and it seems that nothing has changed.

leipert 5y ago

Germany just passed a law that forces Amazon, eBay (or any platform) to be transparent about who you are buying from (company / individuals). Additionally they need to be transparent about how they rank search result and whether the results include paid placements. German source here: https://www.golem.de/news/bundestag-amazon-und-ebay-zu-mehr-transparenz-verdonnert-2106-157235.html https://www.golem.de/news/bundestag-amazon-und-ebay-zu-mehr-...

IG_Semmelweiss 5y ago

For anyone believing amazon's claim that servicing vendor complaints of copycats/trademark infringers was a "hard" problem I give you exhibit A. Its not hard. Amazon is just not interested in fixing it

cartoonworld 5y ago

This is currently a big pain in the butt for me. I sometimes buy specialized tools and equipment from Amazon due to the convenience of Amazon's great catalog and suggestion system, it can be quite useful. However, sometimes I receive items that are clearly B-stock, returns, mislabeled defective, improperly packaged, etc from these third party sellers who "win the buy box". The subtle difference between useful and completely useless is really hard to demonstrate to someone who is not familiar with the usage and normal appearance of these products. When I have a problem with some of these specialized industrial products I often cannot simply return them for service or warranty to the reseller, I am required to return them to the authorized reseller (Amazon is often one of these) for warranty service. The problem with this is that the manufacturer often only warranties their product when sold from their authorized reseller. Even though Amazon may be an official reseller affiliate, the third party reseller that I purchased it from (again, FBA, but sold by GUYA JICKSV LLC) is not on this list! In order to get the warranty service I now have to go to the manufacturer, who is wary of theft, counterfeit, returns, and a really surprising number of times I discover that there is a part missing or duplicate parts, and this renders the warranty void. Dealing with the manufacturers in these situations is really annoying and often fruitless. To them its just one unit and they do industrial sales volume, but to me it is several hundred dollars and days of hassle. This costs me much more money than the cost of replacing the thing. I am now very wary of buying certain types of products from Amazon, as they often appear to be sold by Amazon, but is actually not sold by Amazon, but only technically sold by amazon because of this buy box behavior. Its is incredibly opaque, error prone, and nobody cares except me and my customers (with whom I sure do have a relationship, unlike the Amazon seller does with me.) As a result, I have reduced my purchasing from Amazon. Cest la vie.