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Hopefully leaders can learn some empathy from this pandemic. > everything about managing remotely completely sucks for me. As an engineer, everything about wo

Hopefully leaders can learn some empathy from this pandemic. > everything about managing remotely completely sucks for me. As an engineer, everything about working in-person completely sucks for me. I hate being around people, I hate hearing people, I hate interacting with coworkers face to face, I hate sitting in office chairs and desks, and I hate commuting. > Videocalls. Whiteboarding. Interviewing. Strategic work. Reading emotions and connecting to people. Again, these all completely suck for me in-person. I'm an introvert and I hate having to put on a happy face for the manager (my resting face looks anywhere from tired to murderous), I hate "sitting in a war room" pretending to focus while my time is just wasted by people talking, I hate traveling and waiting in a lobby for interviews when I'm already nervous, and I hate having to mime the emotions and interactions that leaders think are meaningful but that I just do because it's part of office politics. Maybe you're an exception, and it would be great if you are. But I've had deep and meaningful relationships with people, fully remotely and text-based, since I used IRC as a teenager. I think in 2021 it's fair to raise the bar and expect managers/leaders to learn basic online communication to the level that teenagers were doing like 10-20 years ago, rather than shackle everyone to the office and commutes because leaders can't learn how to use slack/zoom

auiya 5y ago
I don't feel the WFH pros/cons align perfectly with engineer/managers either. I know many managers who are very comfortable with managing a geo-distributed remote team. Mine in particular is quite good at it.
walshemj 5y ago
You really think your peers are going to appreciate your attitude? Don't take this the wrong way but I think you need to think about Therapy.
- arlompcritiq 5y ago
  It’s not clear what exactly you’re referring to by “attitude” or how you think “Therapy” will affect it. On the other hand, I can easily see how the sort of non-constructive verbal lashing-out demonstrated in your comment could be a problem in the workplace, and a behavior that one can learn to avoid through Therapy.
  - walshemj 5y ago
    "I hate being around people, I hate hearing people, I hate interacting with coworkers face to face, I hate sitting in office chairs and desks, and I hate commuting." That is asking for your employer to say well none of your coworkers want to work with you "total break down in trust" bye bye Which was my point the person does need to understand that he has to work with other people other wise they will be fired.
    - orf 5y ago
      But he’s not saying he doesn’t like working with people in general, or even that he doesn’t like the people he currently works with. Only that the previously enforced method of interaction isn’t his cup of tea. And for all you know his co-workers feel the same.
      - silicon2401 5y ago
        Thanks, that's right. I actually am grateful to have a team that I like a lot at the moment; I just prefer working fully remotely and my coworkers happen to feel the same way, in this case.
- cyberlurker 5y ago
  He plays the game in office. But it’s exhausting and pointless. The only benefit I see of being in office is not having to compete with others around the world for jobs.
  - silicon2401 5y ago
    Concise and correct. The latter is probably one of the few benefits I've seen to being in-office, but even then I think it depends on your country. I don't think it's easy for foreigners to get an American remote job, for example.
- silicon2401 5y ago
  Maybe you missed the parts where I mentioned acting/miming. I'm not so oblivious as to be a grouch at work lol. That's y whole point: I _have_ to exert effort to be friendly and likable and get along with my coworkers. It takes effort because it's not something I enjoy or want, but is essentially necessitated by any job. I don't like working or coding that much either, but I still put in the effort to do a good job because that's what working is: work. It would just be easier for me and people like me if I could take out the unnecessary stuff like being in an office, just like employers generally pay for air conditioning so you don't have to try working through heat stroke during hot summers.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
titanomachy 5y ago
> I hate being around people, I hate hearing people, I hate interacting with coworkers face to face It's a reasonable way to feel, but I don't think the majority of people are like this. People who feel this way should definitely seek remote work.
- karaterobot 5y ago
  Hate is a strong word, but if you phrased it as "would prefer not having to be near people, listen to people while trying to focus, or be forced into unwanted face-to-face social interactions" the percentage would be fairly high, especially among developers.
  - machello13 5y ago
    That’s not really what we’re talking about. We’re talking about people who prefer office vs. not.
    - bart_spoon 5y ago
      Its exactly what is being talked about. All of those things are things inherent to the office experience that go away when working remotely.
      - machello13 5y ago
        Those are only the negative experiences. Many people do not like those things. But there are positive aspects to being in the office that you misleadingly did not list.
- InvaderFizz 5y ago
  The more extroverted among us get emotionally charged by parties and social interaction. The more introverted among us get emotionally drained by parties and social interactions. For the introverts, the draining effect is much less pronounced if the party is among a tight-knit group where being conscious of social norms is not needed. After a large gathering of people I am not emotionally close to, I need a couple hours alone, without human contact just to decompress.
burlesona 5y ago
I understand most of your point, but the end of your comment shows a real lack of interest in and understanding of what people managers are paid to do. The job is to align a large groups of people on tasks while maintaining coordination with other large groups and keeping morale high. All of that requires tremendous amounts of communication, and communication over Slack and even Zoom is very low bandwidth compared to communication in person. Consider this: if your home had only a 56k dialup modem and your office had gigabit fiber, would you still prefer to work from home? Because that’s kind of what covid-remote had been like as a people manager in a larger org. To make remote management work you need to not just “learn how to use Slack and Zoom,” you need to fundamentally redesign your entire org for extremely low social cohesion and low bandwidth communication. It can be done, as evidenced by many successful remote-only companies, but it’s not simple or easy, and it’s brutal to be a people manager in an org that was designed around office work and leading through the conversion to remote-only.
- wiz21c 5y ago
  Funny my managers often wanted me to be more "flexible" to meet absolutely non-flexible deadlines. I certainly won't mind if my manager has to adapt for once (and don't tell me they adapt to each of us and all situations and that's already taxing) I'll happily turn the tables.
- ashneo76 5y ago
  And so instead of the managers adapting, the engineers have to adapt to the 56k equivalent by being in the office?
  - burlesona 5y ago
    That’s a disingenuous interpretation and not what I said. Good managers work hard to try and help everyone on the team do their best work. Just keep in mind that the overall team optimum may not be the individual optimum for you. It’s basically impossible to create a work environment that is ideal for more than 3-5 people. The more people you add the more you need to balance everyone’s preferences. But good management can and does create a work environment where everyone feels things are pretty good. As for me, the biggest takeaway I have from COVID life is that open office designs have to go, and possibly that hybrid remote work has some answers for how to make that possible. Open office is fine for some kinds of work, but ruins deep work. I think most people who are having an epiphany about work from home either had a terrible commute and didn’t realize how much it stressed them out, or had never gotten to do deep work before and didn’t realize how valuable it was. Those are important things for all of us to learn.
sneak 5y ago
> But I've had deep and meaningful relationships with people, fully remotely and text-based, since I used IRC as a teenager. Me too, but I think perhaps that you and I are several standard deviations above the median in terms of reading comprehension and ability to write clearly. Not everyone is capable of this, as I learned when I tried to run a whole-ass engineering org like I previously ran more informal teams on irc. Most people are bad at reading comprehension. It's why they tell people to repeat and rephrase their points when communicating, to give their readers a second chance at getting it.
- novok 5y ago
  There is also the aspect of being on the record in corporate chat. There is way more on the line when everything is recorded than informal in person talking. People also 'have to be there' with their jobs, doing something they necessarily do not enjoy. On IRC in the 90s when everyone was anonymous and nothing was on the line, you had the social freedom to be more open, and the people who wanted to be there didn't have to be paid to be there.
  - sneak 5y ago
    Yet another good reason why corporate chat message TTLs should be no more than 7-14 days. (Another is that the default of "forever" in things like Slack and Mattermost means that a compromise of a single user account gets to see every DM (including sensitive stuff DMed like passwords or PII) ever sent or received by that user. It's insane. It's also able to be subpoenaed. Expire your messages!)
    - novok 5y ago
      People get really annoyed that they cannot find answers to previous questions, and if you have q&a website to get around that, your just moving the chat goalposts around. Not to mention its a higher friction process, so people go ask questions anyway on the company slack. Also screenshots are a thing and easy to do in secret impulsively, recording stuff when your talking in person has a much higher threshold, and far less people are typically listening. Also once you get to a certain size, there are legislative retention requirements and legal holds.
LockDownExposed 5y ago
Seek therapy.
endymi0n 5y ago
> Maybe you're an exception, and it would be great if you are. But I've had deep and meaningful relationships with people, fully remotely and text-based, since I used IRC as a teenager. I think in 2021 it's fair to raise the bar and expect managers/leaders to learn basic online communication to the level that teenagers were doing like 10-20 years ago, rather than shackle everyone to the office and commutes because leaders can't learn how to use slack/zoom With all due respect, I‘ve been chatting on IRC since the birth of Undernet, but some people I thought I had meaningful connections with I should have better not have met IRL. These days I prefer to make my connections in meatspace. I introduced Slack to our company and am fully able to use Zoom, but there‘s a difference between four Zoom calls a week and four a day (yes, you do need to manage up and to the sides as well). You might hate your manager, but so far companies don‘t work without leadership and coordination either. I hope we can find something better going forward together.
wreath 5y ago
I sometimes wonder if software developers who share these sentiments are often disappointed by the way things work in the industry because they expected to be coding/interacting with machines and toys the whole working time but in reality there is a lot more to building software that solves business problems than just coding.
- jgrowl 5y ago
  I can only speak from personal experience, but yes, it was pretty crushing. I knew interacting with people would be required, but I did not foresee the full on panic attacks in the bathroom, trying to calm down so I wouldn't just run out the front door and never come back.
  - silicon2401 5y ago
    Ditto. I haven't had the same intensity, but I always take office lunch in isolation somewhere, take a lot of bathroom breaks where I'm just sitting on the toilet, etc, just to get some solitude. It's a real drag having to interact with people

auiya 5y ago

I don't feel the WFH pros/cons align perfectly with engineer/managers either. I know many managers who are very comfortable with managing a geo-distributed remote team. Mine in particular is quite good at it.

walshemj 5y ago

You really think your peers are going to appreciate your attitude? Don't take this the wrong way but I think you need to think about Therapy.

arlompcritiq 5y ago
It’s not clear what exactly you’re referring to by “attitude” or how you think “Therapy” will affect it. On the other hand, I can easily see how the sort of non-constructive verbal lashing-out demonstrated in your comment could be a problem in the workplace, and a behavior that one can learn to avoid through Therapy.
- walshemj 5y ago
  "I hate being around people, I hate hearing people, I hate interacting with coworkers face to face, I hate sitting in office chairs and desks, and I hate commuting." That is asking for your employer to say well none of your coworkers want to work with you "total break down in trust" bye bye Which was my point the person does need to understand that he has to work with other people other wise they will be fired.
  - orf 5y ago
    But he’s not saying he doesn’t like working with people in general, or even that he doesn’t like the people he currently works with. Only that the previously enforced method of interaction isn’t his cup of tea. And for all you know his co-workers feel the same.
    - silicon2401 5y ago
      Thanks, that's right. I actually am grateful to have a team that I like a lot at the moment; I just prefer working fully remotely and my coworkers happen to feel the same way, in this case.
cyberlurker 5y ago
He plays the game in office. But it’s exhausting and pointless. The only benefit I see of being in office is not having to compete with others around the world for jobs.
- silicon2401 5y ago
  Concise and correct. The latter is probably one of the few benefits I've seen to being in-office, but even then I think it depends on your country. I don't think it's easy for foreigners to get an American remote job, for example.
silicon2401 5y ago
Maybe you missed the parts where I mentioned acting/miming. I'm not so oblivious as to be a grouch at work lol. That's y whole point: I _have_ to exert effort to be friendly and likable and get along with my coworkers. It takes effort because it's not something I enjoy or want, but is essentially necessitated by any job. I don't like working or coding that much either, but I still put in the effort to do a good job because that's what working is: work. It would just be easier for me and people like me if I could take out the unnecessary stuff like being in an office, just like employers generally pay for air conditioning so you don't have to try working through heat stroke during hot summers.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

titanomachy 5y ago

> I hate being around people, I hate hearing people, I hate interacting with coworkers face to face It's a reasonable way to feel, but I don't think the majority of people are like this. People who feel this way should definitely seek remote work.

karaterobot 5y ago
Hate is a strong word, but if you phrased it as "would prefer not having to be near people, listen to people while trying to focus, or be forced into unwanted face-to-face social interactions" the percentage would be fairly high, especially among developers.
- machello13 5y ago
  That’s not really what we’re talking about. We’re talking about people who prefer office vs. not.
  - bart_spoon 5y ago
    Its exactly what is being talked about. All of those things are things inherent to the office experience that go away when working remotely.
    - machello13 5y ago
      Those are only the negative experiences. Many people do not like those things. But there are positive aspects to being in the office that you misleadingly did not list.
InvaderFizz 5y ago
The more extroverted among us get emotionally charged by parties and social interaction. The more introverted among us get emotionally drained by parties and social interactions. For the introverts, the draining effect is much less pronounced if the party is among a tight-knit group where being conscious of social norms is not needed. After a large gathering of people I am not emotionally close to, I need a couple hours alone, without human contact just to decompress.

burlesona 5y ago

I understand most of your point, but the end of your comment shows a real lack of interest in and understanding of what people managers are paid to do. The job is to align a large groups of people on tasks while maintaining coordination with other large groups and keeping morale high. All of that requires tremendous amounts of communication, and communication over Slack and even Zoom is very low bandwidth compared to communication in person. Consider this: if your home had only a 56k dialup modem and your office had gigabit fiber, would you still prefer to work from home? Because that’s kind of what covid-remote had been like as a people manager in a larger org. To make remote management work you need to not just “learn how to use Slack and Zoom,” you need to fundamentally redesign your entire org for extremely low social cohesion and low bandwidth communication. It can be done, as evidenced by many successful remote-only companies, but it’s not simple or easy, and it’s brutal to be a people manager in an org that was designed around office work and leading through the conversion to remote-only.

wiz21c 5y ago
Funny my managers often wanted me to be more "flexible" to meet absolutely non-flexible deadlines. I certainly won't mind if my manager has to adapt for once (and don't tell me they adapt to each of us and all situations and that's already taxing) I'll happily turn the tables.
ashneo76 5y ago
And so instead of the managers adapting, the engineers have to adapt to the 56k equivalent by being in the office?
- burlesona 5y ago
  That’s a disingenuous interpretation and not what I said. Good managers work hard to try and help everyone on the team do their best work. Just keep in mind that the overall team optimum may not be the individual optimum for you. It’s basically impossible to create a work environment that is ideal for more than 3-5 people. The more people you add the more you need to balance everyone’s preferences. But good management can and does create a work environment where everyone feels things are pretty good. As for me, the biggest takeaway I have from COVID life is that open office designs have to go, and possibly that hybrid remote work has some answers for how to make that possible. Open office is fine for some kinds of work, but ruins deep work. I think most people who are having an epiphany about work from home either had a terrible commute and didn’t realize how much it stressed them out, or had never gotten to do deep work before and didn’t realize how valuable it was. Those are important things for all of us to learn.

sneak 5y ago

> But I've had deep and meaningful relationships with people, fully remotely and text-based, since I used IRC as a teenager. Me too, but I think perhaps that you and I are several standard deviations above the median in terms of reading comprehension and ability to write clearly. Not everyone is capable of this, as I learned when I tried to run a whole-ass engineering org like I previously ran more informal teams on irc. Most people are bad at reading comprehension. It's why they tell people to repeat and rephrase their points when communicating, to give their readers a second chance at getting it.

novok 5y ago
There is also the aspect of being on the record in corporate chat. There is way more on the line when everything is recorded than informal in person talking. People also 'have to be there' with their jobs, doing something they necessarily do not enjoy. On IRC in the 90s when everyone was anonymous and nothing was on the line, you had the social freedom to be more open, and the people who wanted to be there didn't have to be paid to be there.
- sneak 5y ago
  Yet another good reason why corporate chat message TTLs should be no more than 7-14 days. (Another is that the default of "forever" in things like Slack and Mattermost means that a compromise of a single user account gets to see every DM (including sensitive stuff DMed like passwords or PII) ever sent or received by that user. It's insane. It's also able to be subpoenaed. Expire your messages!)
  - novok 5y ago
    People get really annoyed that they cannot find answers to previous questions, and if you have q&a website to get around that, your just moving the chat goalposts around. Not to mention its a higher friction process, so people go ask questions anyway on the company slack. Also screenshots are a thing and easy to do in secret impulsively, recording stuff when your talking in person has a much higher threshold, and far less people are typically listening. Also once you get to a certain size, there are legislative retention requirements and legal holds.

LockDownExposed 5y ago

Seek therapy.

endymi0n 5y ago

> Maybe you're an exception, and it would be great if you are. But I've had deep and meaningful relationships with people, fully remotely and text-based, since I used IRC as a teenager. I think in 2021 it's fair to raise the bar and expect managers/leaders to learn basic online communication to the level that teenagers were doing like 10-20 years ago, rather than shackle everyone to the office and commutes because leaders can't learn how to use slack/zoom With all due respect, I‘ve been chatting on IRC since the birth of Undernet, but some people I thought I had meaningful connections with I should have better not have met IRL. These days I prefer to make my connections in meatspace. I introduced Slack to our company and am fully able to use Zoom, but there‘s a difference between four Zoom calls a week and four a day (yes, you do need to manage up and to the sides as well). You might hate your manager, but so far companies don‘t work without leadership and coordination either. I hope we can find something better going forward together.

wreath 5y ago

I sometimes wonder if software developers who share these sentiments are often disappointed by the way things work in the industry because they expected to be coding/interacting with machines and toys the whole working time but in reality there is a lot more to building software that solves business problems than just coding.

jgrowl 5y ago
I can only speak from personal experience, but yes, it was pretty crushing. I knew interacting with people would be required, but I did not foresee the full on panic attacks in the bathroom, trying to calm down so I wouldn't just run out the front door and never come back.
- silicon2401 5y ago
  Ditto. I haven't had the same intensity, but I always take office lunch in isolation somewhere, take a lot of bathroom breaks where I'm just sitting on the toilet, etc, just to get some solitude. It's a real drag having to interact with people