20 ms·

Very interesting given one of the lesser known complications of covid can be myocarditis in otherwise healthy individuals with few or no other covid symptoms.

Very interesting given one of the lesser known complications of covid can be myocarditis in otherwise healthy individuals with few or no other covid symptoms. In fact, it’s likely the incidence of covid-induced myocarditis is vastly underreported given it often shows no symptoms and can only reasonably be diagnosed with a cardiac MRI which is not always widely available or advised for less-serious heart conditions. I was diagnosed with myocarditis last year and despite a negative PCR test around the onset of symptoms (light-headedness, heart palpitations, fatigue) was strongly suspected to have contracted covid. I was lucky enough to get my first dose of the moderna vaccine a few months back and beside a few days of increased heart palpitations I’ve had no trouble as far as I’m aware, does make me wonder about getting that second dose though.

hollerith 5y ago
The vaccine and the virus both expose the body to large amounts of the spike protein.
newsclues 5y ago
The spike protein causes cellular damage, doesn’t matter if it comes from the vaccine or virus
- lame-robot-hoax 5y ago
  Yes, but the route in which a vaccination takes place (IM injection into deltoid) should mean that much much less of the spike protein ends up in the heart and lungs vs a natural infection. As well, the overall amount of spike protein in the body will be less. https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2021/05/04/spike-protein-behavior https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2021/05/04/sp... “Consider what happens when you’re infected by the actual coronavirus. We know now that the huge majority of such infections are spread by inhalation of virus-laden droplets from other infected people, so the route of administration is via the nose and/or lungs, and the cells lining your airway are thus the first ones to get infected. The viral infection process leads at the end to lysis of the the host cell and subsequent dumping of a load of new viral particles – and these get dumped into the cellular neighborhood and into the bloodstream. They then have a clear shot at the endothelial cells lining the airway vasculature, which are the very focus of these two new papers. Compare this, though, to what happens in vaccination. The injection is intramuscular, not into the bloodstream. That’s why a muscle like the deltoid is preferred, because it’s a good target of thicker muscle tissue without any easily hit veins or arteries at the site of injection. The big surface vein in that region is the cephalic vein, and it’s down along where the deltoid and pectoral muscles meet, not high up in the shoulder. In earlier animal model studies of mRNA vaccines, such administration was clearly preferred over a straight i.v. injection; the effects were much stronger. So the muscle cells around the injection are hit by the vaccine (whether mRNA-containing lipid nanoparticles or adenovirus vectors) while a good portion of the remaining dose is in the intercellular fluid and thus drains through the lymphatic system, not the bloodstream. That’s what you want, since the lymph nodes are a major site of immune response. The draining lymph nodes for the deltoid are going to be the deltoid/pectoral ones where those two muscles meet, and the larger axillary lymph nodes down in the armpit on that side.”
  - osipov 5y ago
    >The injection is intramuscular, not into the bloodstream. Recent research (per No Agenda shownotes) showed that unlike traditional vaccines, Moderna mRNA spread through the bloodstream producing and distributing spike protein in the entire body.
    - lame-robot-hoax 5y ago
      What do you mean by “spread through the bloodstream”? Of course even in an IM injection, some will end up in the blood stream. The better question is the overall amount that stays within the deltoid vs that that travels elsewhere, and how the compares to natural infection. How does the virus deposit itself around the body vs. how does the spike protein via vaccination deposit itself around the body. As well, with the way the vaccine works, once it hits a cell, that cell will express the spike protein to the surface and that’s it, instead of contributing to further viral spread in the same region.
      - osipov 5y ago
        My point is different: the mRNA molecule travels through the bloodstream and escapes the deltoid in quantities magnitude larger than an attenuated virus in a traditional vaccine. Then, onces mRNA is spread throughout the body, the cells use the mRNA to manufacture spike protein and spread the virus even further.
  - newsclues 5y ago
    “Should” Has it been tested?
    - VoiceOfWisdom 5y ago
      Its in testing right now.
      - newsclues 5y ago
        I’m listening to the livestream on Bret Weinstein’s channel and they are discussing data that states the opposite including data that shows a concentration in the ovaries.
- tim333 5y ago
  It does matter because the degree of damage is much greater if you get infected by the virus.
EMM_386 5y ago
The human heart has a lot of ACE2 receptors, which is what Covid binds to. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7239191/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7239191/ I wonder if you can get myocarditits both from exposure and the vaccine. Covid is in your heart tissue, triggering an immune response. When you get the vaccine, your immune system is going to ramp up even further to deal with this Covid in your heart. This would only affect people who had prior Covid exposure it would seem.
- Mountain_Skies 5y ago
  Wonder if this will lead to an increase in pericarditis over the next couple of years. I had pericarditis when I was a teen. The explanation from the cardiologist, which probably was dumbed down for me, was that sometimes a foreign body like bacteria or a virus gets hidden in the lining of the heart and when it later gets exposed to the immune system, it causes the pericardium to get enflamed, which squeezes the heart. How long do spike proteins (SARS-CoV-2 or vaccine created) hang out if they make it to the heart? We probably don't know yet.
  - EMM_386 5y ago
    > How long do spike proteins (SARS-CoV-2 or vaccine created) hang out if they make it to the heart? As far as I understand it, the vaccine doesn't work like this. It tells your immune system "hey this is what a SARS-CoV-2 spike protein looks like, attack it if you see it". So the vaccine wouldn't cause the heart damage, the vaccine does (intentionally) ramp up your immune system to learn about this new threat, which it will then attack. It doesn't bind to ACE2, it teaches your immune system to look for bad things that can. If there is still Covid in your heart due to prior exposure, your immune system is going to go there to assist. This would cause inflammation, but intentionally. As you noted, this immune system response is correct behavior. So that's a long way of saying the inflammation is from the virus, not the vaccine. That's why I was thinking this may only occur in vaccinated individuals who had prior exposure to Covid.
    - sjg007 5y ago
mrfusion 5y ago
COVID induced myocarditis has been thoroughly disproven: https://www.statnews.com/2021/05/14/setting-the-record-straight-there-is-no-covid-heart/ https://www.statnews.com/2021/05/14/setting-the-record-strai...
- Kognito 5y ago
  Thanks for the article, an interesting read for sure. It’s nice to see there’s been plenty of follow-up study on this. Respectfully, you’re wrong to say “thoroughly disproven”. Even the article ends with the suggestion that it’s a side-effect of covid, albeit a rare one. The article’s position is more that it was overblown to worry about stopping young athletes from competing for fear of myo being a common side-effect as opposed to the ~1% rate the studies have since shown.
  - eckesicle 5y ago
    My wife died from myocarditis 2 months ago. The only thing she tested positive for was COVID. The coroner's report however, was quite clear that COVID did not cause her death or the myocarditis and that there has been no such reported case anywhere in the world. If anyone has information to dispute that I would be very interested to see it. Thanks
    - timr 5y ago
      Myocarditis is unfortunately very common. There are many causes, including a panoply of viruses for which tests may not exist. That is probably why the coroner's report said what it did. I'm sorry for your loss.
    - Kognito 5y ago
      I’m so sorry for your loss, myo is a terrible illness and so poorly understood by the medical community - even cardiologists seem to have a hard time recognising it. There’s a good deal of info available in medical journals relating to covid and myo. I’m no doctor though I’ve researched it well since being diagnosed.
    - 5y ago
salemh 5y ago
>second dose There has been some discussion on that: Delaying a Covid vaccine’s second dose boosts immune response https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27156859 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27156859
pcbro141 5y ago
I'm curious if you were prescribed any treatment for myocarditis if you don't mind me asking?
- Kognito 5y ago
  Questions are more than welcome :) No treatment, just a follow up cardiac MRI after 3 months which showed (thankfully) a resolution of inflammation and normal heart function. Was prescribed low-dose beta blockers if the palpitations bothered me too much though didn’t end up needing them. As I understand it the typical approach is to wait and see since the majority of cases resolve without treatment - though I’ve noticed in the US it’s more popular to prescribe a low-dose cocktail of various heart meds. Not aware of any clinical data on their effectiveness in mild cases.
throwaway5752 5y ago
I would "take your chances" (quotes because it's both rare and temporary according to the linked article) with the vaccine rather than risk infection with covid: https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/the-hidden-long-term-cognitive-effects-of-covid-2020100821133 https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/the-hidden-long-term-cog...
- oogabooga123 5y ago
  Very interesting! But I would rather just get infected. To each their own, I’m sure we can agree!
  - moron4hire 5y ago
    Natural infection won't provide as long lasting of immunity compared to the mRNA vaccines. And if the vaccine is going to inflame your heart, I seriously doubt it's going to be anything but far worse from the natural infection.
    - andai 5y ago
      Can someone explain why this the mRNA vaccine (which tells your body to produce spike protein and thus mimic the virus) produces long-lasting immunity but the actual virus which is being mimicked does not do that?
      - jobu 5y ago
        There was a piece about this on NPR (I think earlier this week, but I can't find it right now). It sounded like they're making some assumptions because the mRNA vaccine causes most people to produce a higher level of antibodies for a longer period of time vs the real virus. However, antibodies are not the only part of immune system, so it's possible that other parts of the immune system may still be effective. The real answer is we don't know that yet conclusively, but we do know the vaccine is effective, so until we have a better understanding it's a good idea to be vaccinated regardless (especially if you have any risk factors).
      - 5y ago
MauroIksem 5y ago
I had a horrible bout of heart palpitations / arithmia starting in may 2020. I worked from since March and was masked the entire time and rarely went anywhere but i suspect i contracted covid some how because the palpitations lasted for months. I'd have them sun up to sundown.

hollerith 5y ago

The vaccine and the virus both expose the body to large amounts of the spike protein.

newsclues 5y ago

The spike protein causes cellular damage, doesn’t matter if it comes from the vaccine or virus

lame-robot-hoax 5y ago
Yes, but the route in which a vaccination takes place (IM injection into deltoid) should mean that much much less of the spike protein ends up in the heart and lungs vs a natural infection. As well, the overall amount of spike protein in the body will be less. https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2021/05/04/spike-protein-behavior https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2021/05/04/sp... “Consider what happens when you’re infected by the actual coronavirus. We know now that the huge majority of such infections are spread by inhalation of virus-laden droplets from other infected people, so the route of administration is via the nose and/or lungs, and the cells lining your airway are thus the first ones to get infected. The viral infection process leads at the end to lysis of the the host cell and subsequent dumping of a load of new viral particles – and these get dumped into the cellular neighborhood and into the bloodstream. They then have a clear shot at the endothelial cells lining the airway vasculature, which are the very focus of these two new papers. Compare this, though, to what happens in vaccination. The injection is intramuscular, not into the bloodstream. That’s why a muscle like the deltoid is preferred, because it’s a good target of thicker muscle tissue without any easily hit veins or arteries at the site of injection. The big surface vein in that region is the cephalic vein, and it’s down along where the deltoid and pectoral muscles meet, not high up in the shoulder. In earlier animal model studies of mRNA vaccines, such administration was clearly preferred over a straight i.v. injection; the effects were much stronger. So the muscle cells around the injection are hit by the vaccine (whether mRNA-containing lipid nanoparticles or adenovirus vectors) while a good portion of the remaining dose is in the intercellular fluid and thus drains through the lymphatic system, not the bloodstream. That’s what you want, since the lymph nodes are a major site of immune response. The draining lymph nodes for the deltoid are going to be the deltoid/pectoral ones where those two muscles meet, and the larger axillary lymph nodes down in the armpit on that side.”
- osipov 5y ago
  >The injection is intramuscular, not into the bloodstream. Recent research (per No Agenda shownotes) showed that unlike traditional vaccines, Moderna mRNA spread through the bloodstream producing and distributing spike protein in the entire body.
  - lame-robot-hoax 5y ago
    What do you mean by “spread through the bloodstream”? Of course even in an IM injection, some will end up in the blood stream. The better question is the overall amount that stays within the deltoid vs that that travels elsewhere, and how the compares to natural infection. How does the virus deposit itself around the body vs. how does the spike protein via vaccination deposit itself around the body. As well, with the way the vaccine works, once it hits a cell, that cell will express the spike protein to the surface and that’s it, instead of contributing to further viral spread in the same region.
    - osipov 5y ago
      My point is different: the mRNA molecule travels through the bloodstream and escapes the deltoid in quantities magnitude larger than an attenuated virus in a traditional vaccine. Then, onces mRNA is spread throughout the body, the cells use the mRNA to manufacture spike protein and spread the virus even further.
- newsclues 5y ago
  “Should” Has it been tested?
  - VoiceOfWisdom 5y ago
    Its in testing right now.
    - newsclues 5y ago
      I’m listening to the livestream on Bret Weinstein’s channel and they are discussing data that states the opposite including data that shows a concentration in the ovaries.
tim333 5y ago
It does matter because the degree of damage is much greater if you get infected by the virus.

EMM_386 5y ago

The human heart has a lot of ACE2 receptors, which is what Covid binds to. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7239191/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7239191/ I wonder if you can get myocarditits both from exposure and the vaccine. Covid is in your heart tissue, triggering an immune response. When you get the vaccine, your immune system is going to ramp up even further to deal with this Covid in your heart. This would only affect people who had prior Covid exposure it would seem.

Mountain_Skies 5y ago
Wonder if this will lead to an increase in pericarditis over the next couple of years. I had pericarditis when I was a teen. The explanation from the cardiologist, which probably was dumbed down for me, was that sometimes a foreign body like bacteria or a virus gets hidden in the lining of the heart and when it later gets exposed to the immune system, it causes the pericardium to get enflamed, which squeezes the heart. How long do spike proteins (SARS-CoV-2 or vaccine created) hang out if they make it to the heart? We probably don't know yet.
- EMM_386 5y ago
  > How long do spike proteins (SARS-CoV-2 or vaccine created) hang out if they make it to the heart? As far as I understand it, the vaccine doesn't work like this. It tells your immune system "hey this is what a SARS-CoV-2 spike protein looks like, attack it if you see it". So the vaccine wouldn't cause the heart damage, the vaccine does (intentionally) ramp up your immune system to learn about this new threat, which it will then attack. It doesn't bind to ACE2, it teaches your immune system to look for bad things that can. If there is still Covid in your heart due to prior exposure, your immune system is going to go there to assist. This would cause inflammation, but intentionally. As you noted, this immune system response is correct behavior. So that's a long way of saying the inflammation is from the virus, not the vaccine. That's why I was thinking this may only occur in vaccinated individuals who had prior exposure to Covid.
  - sjg007 5y ago

mrfusion 5y ago

COVID induced myocarditis has been thoroughly disproven: https://www.statnews.com/2021/05/14/setting-the-record-straight-there-is-no-covid-heart/ https://www.statnews.com/2021/05/14/setting-the-record-strai...

Kognito 5y ago
Thanks for the article, an interesting read for sure. It’s nice to see there’s been plenty of follow-up study on this. Respectfully, you’re wrong to say “thoroughly disproven”. Even the article ends with the suggestion that it’s a side-effect of covid, albeit a rare one. The article’s position is more that it was overblown to worry about stopping young athletes from competing for fear of myo being a common side-effect as opposed to the ~1% rate the studies have since shown.
- eckesicle 5y ago
  My wife died from myocarditis 2 months ago. The only thing she tested positive for was COVID. The coroner's report however, was quite clear that COVID did not cause her death or the myocarditis and that there has been no such reported case anywhere in the world. If anyone has information to dispute that I would be very interested to see it. Thanks
  - timr 5y ago
    Myocarditis is unfortunately very common. There are many causes, including a panoply of viruses for which tests may not exist. That is probably why the coroner's report said what it did. I'm sorry for your loss.
  - Kognito 5y ago
    I’m so sorry for your loss, myo is a terrible illness and so poorly understood by the medical community - even cardiologists seem to have a hard time recognising it. There’s a good deal of info available in medical journals relating to covid and myo. I’m no doctor though I’ve researched it well since being diagnosed.
  - 5y ago

salemh 5y ago

>second dose There has been some discussion on that: Delaying a Covid vaccine’s second dose boosts immune response https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27156859 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27156859

pcbro141 5y ago

I'm curious if you were prescribed any treatment for myocarditis if you don't mind me asking?

Kognito 5y ago
Questions are more than welcome :) No treatment, just a follow up cardiac MRI after 3 months which showed (thankfully) a resolution of inflammation and normal heart function. Was prescribed low-dose beta blockers if the palpitations bothered me too much though didn’t end up needing them. As I understand it the typical approach is to wait and see since the majority of cases resolve without treatment - though I’ve noticed in the US it’s more popular to prescribe a low-dose cocktail of various heart meds. Not aware of any clinical data on their effectiveness in mild cases.

throwaway5752 5y ago

I would "take your chances" (quotes because it's both rare and temporary according to the linked article) with the vaccine rather than risk infection with covid: https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/the-hidden-long-term-cognitive-effects-of-covid-2020100821133 https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/the-hidden-long-term-cog...

oogabooga123 5y ago
Very interesting! But I would rather just get infected. To each their own, I’m sure we can agree!
- moron4hire 5y ago
  Natural infection won't provide as long lasting of immunity compared to the mRNA vaccines. And if the vaccine is going to inflame your heart, I seriously doubt it's going to be anything but far worse from the natural infection.
  - andai 5y ago
    Can someone explain why this the mRNA vaccine (which tells your body to produce spike protein and thus mimic the virus) produces long-lasting immunity but the actual virus which is being mimicked does not do that?
    - jobu 5y ago
      There was a piece about this on NPR (I think earlier this week, but I can't find it right now). It sounded like they're making some assumptions because the mRNA vaccine causes most people to produce a higher level of antibodies for a longer period of time vs the real virus. However, antibodies are not the only part of immune system, so it's possible that other parts of the immune system may still be effective. The real answer is we don't know that yet conclusively, but we do know the vaccine is effective, so until we have a better understanding it's a good idea to be vaccinated regardless (especially if you have any risk factors).
    - 5y ago

MauroIksem 5y ago

I had a horrible bout of heart palpitations / arithmia starting in may 2020. I worked from since March and was masked the entire time and rarely went anywhere but i suspect i contracted covid some how because the palpitations lasted for months. I'd have them sun up to sundown.