5 ms·

Agreed. Context matters here. I'd hate for this to get blown out of proportion like the blood clot issue did, causing massive confidence declines in places all

Agreed. Context matters here. I'd hate for this to get blown out of proportion like the blood clot issue did, causing massive confidence declines in places all over, especially those struggling to roll out vaccines and keep their COVID cases under control. Obviously, if the numbers are alarming, we must react accordingly.

dfsegoat 5y ago
They are alarming based on the measure of Observed vs. Expected cases. Observed (O) cases in that age group: 283 Expected (E) cases in that age group: 10-102 So at least double the top of the confidence interval, for expected.
- shawabawa3 5y ago
  but that's out of 13m doses, so ~200 out of 13m. I'm not sure how that compares to the expected harm from catching covid but I imagine the vaccine still ends up massively favourable
  - swader999 5y ago
    Have to really consider if the 200 are but a fraction of the actual though. I mean how many are going to be reported?
    - fwip 5y ago
      I'd wager it's approximately the same fraction of myocarditis cases that are reported in the unvaccinated group. There may even be a bias toward over-reporting myocarditis in the wake of a vaccine, as people are primed to look for side effects.
  - dfsegoat 5y ago
    Per the article. The age group of concern "accounted for less than 9% of doses administered." Also, underreporting is a factor - not everyone knows about VAERS, not everyone goes to the Dr. for chest pain etc. I agree it's favorable, but it's important to understand the effects of any medicine on subgroups of a treatment population.
  - nwellnhof 5y ago
    This depends a lot on the probability of contracting Covid at all. Roughly speaking, if there's a 1% chance to contract the disease, the vaccine has to be at least 100 times safer. As the chance to catch Covid decreases over time, the risks associated with vaccines become more of a problem.
    - heisenbit 5y ago
      > As the chance to catch Covid decreases over time, the risks associated with vaccines become more of a problem. This is a big assumption. It could also be that it becomes part of the virus background infections we all deal with except that it is high risk if you get it the first time. When looking that the risk of an non vaccinated individual catching Covid today keep in mind that a lot of people have been vaccinated and the incidence numbers de-facto refer to incidences of the non vaccinated part of the population which would justify a smaller denominator than used (whole population).
    - sudosysgen 5y ago
      Without vaccines the risk of catching covid is of around 70% at least.
      - HPsquared 5y ago
        Is that for an individual not taking the vaccine but benefiting from herd immunity of others, or a person in a while society without vaccines?
        sudosysgen 5y ago
        For society in general. That said, there is no guarantee that herd immunity will ever be reached at least in the US. If herd immunity isn't reached then it's basically guaranteed you'll get it eventually as the disease becomes a "background disease".
- fwip 5y ago
  Right, but you've got to look at the absolute rate, which in this case is 283 out of 12 million, which is roughly 24 people per million. You can look at the risk of what it's preventing (covid has already killed ~1700 people per million in the US), or compare to other activities and risk levels. Relative risk comparisons between different activities are often not useful. For example, the risk of shark-death at the beach might look alarming when compared to my risk of shark-death-at-home, but actually it's vanishingly unlikely.
  - makomk 5y ago
    The trouble is that the people apparently at risk from this are not the people at risk from Covid-19. The risk to people between the ages of 12 and 24 from Covid is really, really small. Especially towards the lower end of that age range, most countries seem to be seeing low single-digit per million deaths: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanchi/article/PIIS2352-4642(21)00066-3/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanchi/article/PIIS2352-4...
    - jlokier 5y ago
      The risk of death from Covid-19 is low in that age range. But what about the risk of heart inflammation from Covid-19 in that age group, possibly with no other Covid symptoms?
      - robbiep 5y ago
        That’s the right question to ask
      - fwip 5y ago
        There's also the relatively high chance that you'll pass the infection on to another person, who may not be nearly as healthy/resilient as you.
journey_16162 5y ago
I would like to see it uncovered. I did not sign up for heart inflammation and any potential future problems that may come out from it.

dfsegoat 5y ago

They are alarming based on the measure of Observed vs. Expected cases. Observed (O) cases in that age group: 283 Expected (E) cases in that age group: 10-102 So at least double the top of the confidence interval, for expected.

shawabawa3 5y ago
but that's out of 13m doses, so ~200 out of 13m. I'm not sure how that compares to the expected harm from catching covid but I imagine the vaccine still ends up massively favourable
- swader999 5y ago
  Have to really consider if the 200 are but a fraction of the actual though. I mean how many are going to be reported?
  - fwip 5y ago
    I'd wager it's approximately the same fraction of myocarditis cases that are reported in the unvaccinated group. There may even be a bias toward over-reporting myocarditis in the wake of a vaccine, as people are primed to look for side effects.
- dfsegoat 5y ago
  Per the article. The age group of concern "accounted for less than 9% of doses administered." Also, underreporting is a factor - not everyone knows about VAERS, not everyone goes to the Dr. for chest pain etc. I agree it's favorable, but it's important to understand the effects of any medicine on subgroups of a treatment population.
- nwellnhof 5y ago
  This depends a lot on the probability of contracting Covid at all. Roughly speaking, if there's a 1% chance to contract the disease, the vaccine has to be at least 100 times safer. As the chance to catch Covid decreases over time, the risks associated with vaccines become more of a problem.
  - heisenbit 5y ago
    > As the chance to catch Covid decreases over time, the risks associated with vaccines become more of a problem. This is a big assumption. It could also be that it becomes part of the virus background infections we all deal with except that it is high risk if you get it the first time. When looking that the risk of an non vaccinated individual catching Covid today keep in mind that a lot of people have been vaccinated and the incidence numbers de-facto refer to incidences of the non vaccinated part of the population which would justify a smaller denominator than used (whole population).
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    Without vaccines the risk of catching covid is of around 70% at least.
    - HPsquared 5y ago
      Is that for an individual not taking the vaccine but benefiting from herd immunity of others, or a person in a while society without vaccines?
      - sudosysgen 5y ago
        For society in general. That said, there is no guarantee that herd immunity will ever be reached at least in the US. If herd immunity isn't reached then it's basically guaranteed you'll get it eventually as the disease becomes a "background disease".
fwip 5y ago
Right, but you've got to look at the absolute rate, which in this case is 283 out of 12 million, which is roughly 24 people per million. You can look at the risk of what it's preventing (covid has already killed ~1700 people per million in the US), or compare to other activities and risk levels. Relative risk comparisons between different activities are often not useful. For example, the risk of shark-death at the beach might look alarming when compared to my risk of shark-death-at-home, but actually it's vanishingly unlikely.
- makomk 5y ago
  The trouble is that the people apparently at risk from this are not the people at risk from Covid-19. The risk to people between the ages of 12 and 24 from Covid is really, really small. Especially towards the lower end of that age range, most countries seem to be seeing low single-digit per million deaths: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanchi/article/PIIS2352-4642(21)00066-3/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanchi/article/PIIS2352-4...
  - jlokier 5y ago
    The risk of death from Covid-19 is low in that age range. But what about the risk of heart inflammation from Covid-19 in that age group, possibly with no other Covid symptoms?
    - robbiep 5y ago
      That’s the right question to ask
    - fwip 5y ago
      There's also the relatively high chance that you'll pass the infection on to another person, who may not be nearly as healthy/resilient as you.

journey_16162 5y ago

I would like to see it uncovered. I did not sign up for heart inflammation and any potential future problems that may come out from it.