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As an Eastern European, when do we get an apology and reparations from: Mongolia, turkey, Russia? In fact Germany as well for the 2nd world war? How are rules

by zpeti 5y ago

As an Eastern European, when do we get an apology and reparations from: Mongolia, turkey, Russia? In fact Germany as well for the 2nd world war? How are rules around these apologies and reparations decided? Seems it’s super popular right now but there’s basically an endless history of one human group occupying and killing another. I’d much prefer forgiving and moving on, but that seems to be off the table. So can Eastern Europe get some cash and apology?

dependsontheq 5y ago
The difference between Eastern Europe and some parts of Africa is that there were no apologies or reparations of any kind until now. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_reparations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_reparations
- filleduchaos 5y ago
  Most people whose hackles rise at the sheer sight of the word "reparations" are strangely okay with (or more cynically, completely oblivious about) how much Germany had to pay for both world wars.
  - benjohnson 5y ago
    Because they were caught in the act as they were doing it.
- zpeti 5y ago
  I’m sorry how does Germany ceding territory and paying reparations to the Soviet Union help any current Eastern European country? Not to mention my post was also about mongols, ottomans, and Soviet occupations.
  - hnbad 5y ago
    How does anything you said contradict the idea that the descendants of the survivors of Germany's genocide in Namibia should at least receive a genuine apology if Germany wants to account for past crimes its legal predecessor committed and benefited from? We can talk about other incidents you think are similar in nature and how we should deal with those. Multiple things can be bad at the same time. Can you be any more precise than "the Mongols" and "the Soviets"? Which incidents would you like to talk about, who were the victims, what was done to them, who did it and who today do you think benefits/suffers from what happened?
    - Bancakes 5y ago
      The people who were supposed to apologise are not in power.
filleduchaos 5y ago
Personally I don't feel the need to "what about" a ~century-old genocide that's understood to be the training ground for the Holocaust.
hnbad 5y ago
Although I know from your comment history that the question is unlikely to be genuine: you do have a point that many Germans like to forget that the entire point of the Eastern Front was to create "Lebensraum" (living space), which meant depopulation (either via deportations or mass executions). Especially the Slavic population was considered "sub-human". That said, most Germans aren't even consciously aware Germany ever had colonies or what that meant. The awareness of war crimes in WW2 is much more widespread, despite the concerted post-war effort to shift the blame away from the Wehrmacht (both by Germans and by the Western Allies who benefited from West Germany not purging its entire military as Europe entered the Cold War). Without necessarily understanding every nuance and knowing of every single war crime Germany committed during WW2, Germans in general and the German government specifically have spent more than seven decades acknowledging the Third Reich's wrongdoings and contributing financial aid to various forms of reparation. Germans and their government have done no such thing for Africa: the exploitation and massacre of Africans is barely even taught in history classes.
- zpeti 5y ago
  Fair enough, but that doesn’t answer my main point that history is full of really bad things, 99% of which no one has ever been held to account for (btw, why would we, no one is alive any more, so unless you believe in collective guilt it’s hard to blame anyone). As an Eastern European who’s countries been fucked over countless times, these reparation discussions are bordering on insulting.
  - hnbad 5y ago
    "Bad things happened to me and nobody talked about that so why should people talk to you just because bad things happened to you too" is not enlightened rationality, it's just spite. It actually sounds like you have been the victim of injustices but feel disgust towards other victims of injustices because you don't want to be thought of as a victim. This is a perfectly normal reaction, but you might want to talk to a therapist. I'm not saying this to insult you. Mental health is a seriously overlooked issue and many people avoid seeking professional help because they don't want to be seen as vulnerable, even if it ruins their lives. EDIT: Interesting that someone would read the first paragraph and conclude that I'm talking about personal beliefs. Or accusing me of calling people "mentally ill", which literally reinforces my point of people avoiding therapy for its stigma.
brodo 5y ago
This is the “all lives matter” tactic applied to colonialism.

by zpeti 5y ago

dependsontheq 5y ago

The difference between Eastern Europe and some parts of Africa is that there were no apologies or reparations of any kind until now. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_reparations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_reparations

filleduchaos 5y ago
Most people whose hackles rise at the sheer sight of the word "reparations" are strangely okay with (or more cynically, completely oblivious about) how much Germany had to pay for both world wars.
- benjohnson 5y ago
  Because they were caught in the act as they were doing it.
zpeti 5y ago
I’m sorry how does Germany ceding territory and paying reparations to the Soviet Union help any current Eastern European country? Not to mention my post was also about mongols, ottomans, and Soviet occupations.
- hnbad 5y ago
  How does anything you said contradict the idea that the descendants of the survivors of Germany's genocide in Namibia should at least receive a genuine apology if Germany wants to account for past crimes its legal predecessor committed and benefited from? We can talk about other incidents you think are similar in nature and how we should deal with those. Multiple things can be bad at the same time. Can you be any more precise than "the Mongols" and "the Soviets"? Which incidents would you like to talk about, who were the victims, what was done to them, who did it and who today do you think benefits/suffers from what happened?
  - Bancakes 5y ago
    The people who were supposed to apologise are not in power.

filleduchaos 5y ago

Personally I don't feel the need to "what about" a ~century-old genocide that's understood to be the training ground for the Holocaust.

hnbad 5y ago

Although I know from your comment history that the question is unlikely to be genuine: you do have a point that many Germans like to forget that the entire point of the Eastern Front was to create "Lebensraum" (living space), which meant depopulation (either via deportations or mass executions). Especially the Slavic population was considered "sub-human". That said, most Germans aren't even consciously aware Germany ever had colonies or what that meant. The awareness of war crimes in WW2 is much more widespread, despite the concerted post-war effort to shift the blame away from the Wehrmacht (both by Germans and by the Western Allies who benefited from West Germany not purging its entire military as Europe entered the Cold War). Without necessarily understanding every nuance and knowing of every single war crime Germany committed during WW2, Germans in general and the German government specifically have spent more than seven decades acknowledging the Third Reich's wrongdoings and contributing financial aid to various forms of reparation. Germans and their government have done no such thing for Africa: the exploitation and massacre of Africans is barely even taught in history classes.

zpeti 5y ago
Fair enough, but that doesn’t answer my main point that history is full of really bad things, 99% of which no one has ever been held to account for (btw, why would we, no one is alive any more, so unless you believe in collective guilt it’s hard to blame anyone). As an Eastern European who’s countries been fucked over countless times, these reparation discussions are bordering on insulting.
- hnbad 5y ago
  "Bad things happened to me and nobody talked about that so why should people talk to you just because bad things happened to you too" is not enlightened rationality, it's just spite. It actually sounds like you have been the victim of injustices but feel disgust towards other victims of injustices because you don't want to be thought of as a victim. This is a perfectly normal reaction, but you might want to talk to a therapist. I'm not saying this to insult you. Mental health is a seriously overlooked issue and many people avoid seeking professional help because they don't want to be seen as vulnerable, even if it ruins their lives. EDIT: Interesting that someone would read the first paragraph and conclude that I'm talking about personal beliefs. Or accusing me of calling people "mentally ill", which literally reinforces my point of people avoiding therapy for its stigma.

brodo 5y ago

This is the “all lives matter” tactic applied to colonialism.