4 ms·

My one anti-vax friend (who I make fun of constantly for not getting it) is constantly bombarded with people telling him that his previous infection doesn't giv

My one anti-vax friend (who I make fun of constantly for not getting it) is constantly bombarded with people telling him that his previous infection doesn't give him any immunity. I already knew that was false - and I think he knew that too. It probably fed into his (motivated) reasoning to hold out this long if people are telling him so much information they know to be untrue. Still, I don't see how public health would benefit from not recommending shots to everyone as there is no downside.

OJFord 5y ago
> I don't see how public health would benefit from not recommending shots to everyone as there is no downside. You'd get all the never infected people vaccinated sooner; so 'everyone' (except anti-vax not infected prior to effective 'herd immunity') would be immune sooner.
- epgui 5y ago
  Yeah, in theory that would be the obvious advantage. In practice, don't underestimate how much more inefficient or troublesome a seemingly simple additional rule or exception might be to administer... :P
  - handmodel 5y ago
    That's my thing. Plenty of people who know they almost certainly had Covid weren't tested, some were tested with tests that were experimental, etc. And while trying to predict second-order behavior effects is tricky either way it is pretty clear that saying "don't get the vaccine if you already had Covid" would scare some people away.
    - epgui 5y ago
      Bingo.
    - Sebb767 5y ago
      > Plenty of people who know they almost certainly had Covid weren't tested I had quite the opposite experience ; plenty of people told me they had (mild) flu symptoms - a lot of TMI, to be honest - and assumed they had had COVID already. It later turned out, with no exception, that they absolutely did not. Scaring those people away would probably hurt a lot, at least in my anecdotal experience.
    - landemva 5y ago
      "Plenty of people who know they almost certainly had Covid weren't tested..." Do you mean tested for antibodies with finger prick blood test, or PCR random number generator (see elon musk wild PCR results). I was sick, had test that showed antibodies, and a confirmation letter from my Dr. Since the EUA to rush out the vaccines does not include those who had it and recovered, it needs more testing and study before it is approved for those who have antibodies. The jab is not risk-free.
      - manwe150 5y ago
        That was true when the EUA was issued, but by now, we have vaccinated major segments of the population without seeing issues (e.g. hospitalizations are decreasing even as the rate of exposed population is much higher). I was in a similar position as you: possible early COVID exposure (though no symptoms), several positive antibody tests, but absolutely zero side effects from either Pfizer shot. Annoyed not a few people though by my lack of any reaction to the shots, so that was kinda fun.
  - jancsika 5y ago
    This guy secures.
AndrewBissell 5y ago
> Still, I don't see how public health would benefit from not recommending shots to everyone as there is no downside The VAERS data suggests there are numerous groups at very low risk from Covid for which this may not be the case.
- epgui 5y ago
  This is a dubious claim, and is a frequent anti-vaxx/vaccine-hesitancy talking point. VAERS data needs to be interpreted with special care. It's not equivalent to a safety study with a proper experimental design. It has a whole lot of legal and administrative context to account for.
  - unanswered 5y ago
    And until the studies happen there is no danger? The studies create the danger? Or may we behave like rational individuals and realize that "zero danger" is a political talking point which is fully debunked by the VAERS data?
    - ceejayoz 5y ago
      VAERS is user-generated content. I can go in there and file a report that I grew a third arm after vaccination and it'll go in. Dying or having an adverse event after vaccination also isn't the same as dying from vaccination; even the genuine VAERS reports don't permit teasing this wrinkle out on their own.
      - AndrewBissell 5y ago
        > I can go in there and file a report that I grew a third arm after vaccination and it'll go in. And you'd be committing a felony. I see this idea tossed around all the time that tons of the reports coming in are fake, but so far have seen scant evidence that that's the case. > Dying or having an adverse event after vaccination also isn't the same as dying from vaccination; even the genuine VAERS reports don't permit teasing this wrinkle out on their own. Okay, but then why are so many more people reporting dying after Covid-19 vaccination than have reported dying after flu shots which have been administered to millions of people for decades?
briefcomment 5y ago
It's certainly arguable that there is downside for some people. Some vaccine side effects are worse for some people who have already been infected. [1] [1] https://www.kfyrtv.com/2021/03/15/health-experts-say-those-previously-infected-with-covid-19-may-have-worse-side-effects-from-the-vaccine/ https://www.kfyrtv.com/2021/03/15/health-experts-say-those-p...
lukeschlather 5y ago
How do you know your anti-vax friend was actually infected? I think a very real risk is that people decide they don't need the vaccine based on false-positive tests or otherwise mis-diagnosed illness. This study appears to be based on following up with a single hospital's own database of people who tested positive. But I imagine you would get different results if you just found a bunch of people and asked them to self-report their prior infection status before enrolling them in the study.
- handmodel 5y ago
  He was tested twice and came back positive both times - many people in his workplace had it. He 100% had it. Agree on the self-reporting, but I guess my larger point is he already doesn't want to get the vax and people telling him that his natural immunity is not sufficient makes him even more distrustful since he does know enough about science/statistics to see that natural immunity is about equal with a vaccine as far as we can tell.
krrrh 5y ago
We don’t know that there is no downside which is why these vaccines were approved via Emergency Use Authorization. At the very least I and several people I know were absolutely flattened by the vaccines for a day or two. One guy I know had very low blood sugar for weeks afterwards and needed medical intervention. The vaccines are important in establishing herd immunity, but I don’t understand the desire to jab people who already have established immunity.
- IgorPartola 5y ago
  Feeling symptoms of COVID after receiving the vaccine is a normal and expected result that makes common sense: your immune system is doing its job. The only possible long term side effect here is partial or total immunity from COVID. On the other hand you don’t know the long term effects of COVID either, but I would bet dollars to donuts that they are worse than from the vaccine, based on what we know as of today.
  - krrrh 5y ago
    > The only possible long term side effect here is partial or total immunity from COVID. You don’t need to convince me to get vaccinated, but this is a profoundly unscientific statement. The mRNA vaccines are a brand new technology that would not have been approved without several years of human trials if there was not a pandemic justifying rushing through the normal process. So far so good, but the immune system is a complex system and we can’t rule out some unexpected side effects for some people some of the time.
  - rolph 5y ago
    one of the other long term effects of covid transmission, is the opportunities given for variation and selection according to viral efficiency, in effect each infection is a crap shoot toward generation of recombinants, or molecular variants
jokethrowaway 5y ago
The only reason I got the vaccine is because of the chance idiotic unscientific governments won't bother me with tests I need to pay for when travelling. I'm not a "anti-vaxxer" "conspiracy theorist" "racist" "sexist" "nazi" but the risk is just too low for me to care. If you think covid can affect you, take the vaccine and don't bother me. I self isolated weeks before the government told me so because we didn't know what the risk involved was. By the time the government approved a 2 weeks lockdown which turned into 1 year and a half, it was already evident the risks were minimal. This is all a political play and I shudder when I think about what's coming next. Shall we do a climate change lockdown next? Or shall we try some more covid variants first? I also don't think vaccines are likely to be dangerous (minus the platelets / blood clots issue - hopefully no long term issues pop up in 10 years). Also, the downside is that everyone is paying for these shots, they're not free and they come out of the taxes the government steals from me every month - and they accomplish very little. Same as the flu shots.

OJFord 5y ago

> I don't see how public health would benefit from not recommending shots to everyone as there is no downside. You'd get all the never infected people vaccinated sooner; so 'everyone' (except anti-vax not infected prior to effective 'herd immunity') would be immune sooner.

epgui 5y ago
Yeah, in theory that would be the obvious advantage. In practice, don't underestimate how much more inefficient or troublesome a seemingly simple additional rule or exception might be to administer... :P
- handmodel 5y ago
  That's my thing. Plenty of people who know they almost certainly had Covid weren't tested, some were tested with tests that were experimental, etc. And while trying to predict second-order behavior effects is tricky either way it is pretty clear that saying "don't get the vaccine if you already had Covid" would scare some people away.
  - epgui 5y ago
    Bingo.
  - Sebb767 5y ago
    > Plenty of people who know they almost certainly had Covid weren't tested I had quite the opposite experience ; plenty of people told me they had (mild) flu symptoms - a lot of TMI, to be honest - and assumed they had had COVID already. It later turned out, with no exception, that they absolutely did not. Scaring those people away would probably hurt a lot, at least in my anecdotal experience.
  - landemva 5y ago
    "Plenty of people who know they almost certainly had Covid weren't tested..." Do you mean tested for antibodies with finger prick blood test, or PCR random number generator (see elon musk wild PCR results). I was sick, had test that showed antibodies, and a confirmation letter from my Dr. Since the EUA to rush out the vaccines does not include those who had it and recovered, it needs more testing and study before it is approved for those who have antibodies. The jab is not risk-free.
    - manwe150 5y ago
      That was true when the EUA was issued, but by now, we have vaccinated major segments of the population without seeing issues (e.g. hospitalizations are decreasing even as the rate of exposed population is much higher). I was in a similar position as you: possible early COVID exposure (though no symptoms), several positive antibody tests, but absolutely zero side effects from either Pfizer shot. Annoyed not a few people though by my lack of any reaction to the shots, so that was kinda fun.
- jancsika 5y ago
  This guy secures.

AndrewBissell 5y ago

> Still, I don't see how public health would benefit from not recommending shots to everyone as there is no downside The VAERS data suggests there are numerous groups at very low risk from Covid for which this may not be the case.

epgui 5y ago
This is a dubious claim, and is a frequent anti-vaxx/vaccine-hesitancy talking point. VAERS data needs to be interpreted with special care. It's not equivalent to a safety study with a proper experimental design. It has a whole lot of legal and administrative context to account for.
- unanswered 5y ago
  And until the studies happen there is no danger? The studies create the danger? Or may we behave like rational individuals and realize that "zero danger" is a political talking point which is fully debunked by the VAERS data?
  - ceejayoz 5y ago
    VAERS is user-generated content. I can go in there and file a report that I grew a third arm after vaccination and it'll go in. Dying or having an adverse event after vaccination also isn't the same as dying from vaccination; even the genuine VAERS reports don't permit teasing this wrinkle out on their own.
    - AndrewBissell 5y ago
      > I can go in there and file a report that I grew a third arm after vaccination and it'll go in. And you'd be committing a felony. I see this idea tossed around all the time that tons of the reports coming in are fake, but so far have seen scant evidence that that's the case. > Dying or having an adverse event after vaccination also isn't the same as dying from vaccination; even the genuine VAERS reports don't permit teasing this wrinkle out on their own. Okay, but then why are so many more people reporting dying after Covid-19 vaccination than have reported dying after flu shots which have been administered to millions of people for decades?

briefcomment 5y ago

It's certainly arguable that there is downside for some people. Some vaccine side effects are worse for some people who have already been infected. [1] [1] https://www.kfyrtv.com/2021/03/15/health-experts-say-those-previously-infected-with-covid-19-may-have-worse-side-effects-from-the-vaccine/ https://www.kfyrtv.com/2021/03/15/health-experts-say-those-p...

lukeschlather 5y ago

How do you know your anti-vax friend was actually infected? I think a very real risk is that people decide they don't need the vaccine based on false-positive tests or otherwise mis-diagnosed illness. This study appears to be based on following up with a single hospital's own database of people who tested positive. But I imagine you would get different results if you just found a bunch of people and asked them to self-report their prior infection status before enrolling them in the study.

handmodel 5y ago
He was tested twice and came back positive both times - many people in his workplace had it. He 100% had it. Agree on the self-reporting, but I guess my larger point is he already doesn't want to get the vax and people telling him that his natural immunity is not sufficient makes him even more distrustful since he does know enough about science/statistics to see that natural immunity is about equal with a vaccine as far as we can tell.

krrrh 5y ago

We don’t know that there is no downside which is why these vaccines were approved via Emergency Use Authorization. At the very least I and several people I know were absolutely flattened by the vaccines for a day or two. One guy I know had very low blood sugar for weeks afterwards and needed medical intervention. The vaccines are important in establishing herd immunity, but I don’t understand the desire to jab people who already have established immunity.

IgorPartola 5y ago
Feeling symptoms of COVID after receiving the vaccine is a normal and expected result that makes common sense: your immune system is doing its job. The only possible long term side effect here is partial or total immunity from COVID. On the other hand you don’t know the long term effects of COVID either, but I would bet dollars to donuts that they are worse than from the vaccine, based on what we know as of today.
- krrrh 5y ago
  > The only possible long term side effect here is partial or total immunity from COVID. You don’t need to convince me to get vaccinated, but this is a profoundly unscientific statement. The mRNA vaccines are a brand new technology that would not have been approved without several years of human trials if there was not a pandemic justifying rushing through the normal process. So far so good, but the immune system is a complex system and we can’t rule out some unexpected side effects for some people some of the time.
- rolph 5y ago
  one of the other long term effects of covid transmission, is the opportunities given for variation and selection according to viral efficiency, in effect each infection is a crap shoot toward generation of recombinants, or molecular variants

jokethrowaway 5y ago

The only reason I got the vaccine is because of the chance idiotic unscientific governments won't bother me with tests I need to pay for when travelling. I'm not a "anti-vaxxer" "conspiracy theorist" "racist" "sexist" "nazi" but the risk is just too low for me to care. If you think covid can affect you, take the vaccine and don't bother me. I self isolated weeks before the government told me so because we didn't know what the risk involved was. By the time the government approved a 2 weeks lockdown which turned into 1 year and a half, it was already evident the risks were minimal. This is all a political play and I shudder when I think about what's coming next. Shall we do a climate change lockdown next? Or shall we try some more covid variants first? I also don't think vaccines are likely to be dangerous (minus the platelets / blood clots issue - hopefully no long term issues pop up in 10 years). Also, the downside is that everyone is paying for these shots, they're not free and they come out of the taxes the government steals from me every month - and they accomplish very little. Same as the flu shots.