10 ms·

The argument is that it's industry standard. Microsoft and Sony also take 30% https://www.washingtonpost.com/video-games/2021/05/07/playstation-xbox-epic-games

The argument is that it's industry standard. Microsoft and Sony also take 30% https://www.washingtonpost.com/video-games/2021/05/07/playstation-xbox-epic-games-apple/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/video-games/2021/05/07/playst...

manigandham 5y ago
There are alternate ways to get software on those platforms. There isn’t on Apple mobile devices.
- dwaite 5y ago
  Citation needed? (For Playstation, XBox)
  - michaelmrose 5y ago
    That too isn't ok
  - manigandham 5y ago
    Physical disks.
    - j_koreth 5y ago
      Aren't physical disks also liable to give Sony and Microsoft a cut?
      - wernercd 5y ago
        Do physical disks come with "you cant sell me at less" restrictions like Apple enforces? With "you can't use any payment store other than apple"? The number of restrictions on top of Apples cut is what makes the difference. The mafia wishes they could enforce the same restrictions. Apple makes them look reasonable.
    - immackay 5y ago
      The only point I seem to see from you throughout this post is that you can use physical disks on playstation/xbox, but even that is dependent on having a playstation/xbox with a disk drive. Additionally, Sony/Microsoft still receive a cut from those sales.
      - manigandham 5y ago
        The point is there is still an alternative. It's not quite the same as they act as publishers and distribution partners in gaming vs mobile devices. There should absolutely be more access to stores there too though, with Steam and Epic on Xbox or Playstation. Why is this so controversial for you?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- immackay 5y ago
  There is indeed alternative ways to get software on Apple mobile devices. Why is this such a common belief? Edit: your point seems to be revolving around the access to physical disks for playstation/xbox, which is 1. Limited to devices that have a disk drive, 2. Limited to software that would similarly be sold on the sony/xbox stores, and 3. Still gives sony/microsoft a cut of the sale. Edit 2: No, I'm not talking about webapps. You can sideload apps with a free developer account, similar to xbox. Edit 3: Right, well I guess I'm being "purposely ignorant" and am actually talking about web apps. This was fun HN, lovely discussion. Edit 4: It does indeed only require a free developer account, and you can strip and resign apps without needing to compile from source.
  - josephcsible 5y ago
    Jailbreaking doesn't count.
    - immackay 5y ago
      No jailbreaking necessary. Edit: Can't reply further, but the way of doing this is much the same as installing unsigned apps on an xbox. Using a (free) developer account you can sideload things quite easy using something like https://github.com/ios-control/ios-deploy https://github.com/ios-control/ios-deploy
      - josephcsible 5y ago
        Can you explain how, then? Edit: So the only way to do it besides jailbreaking is for literally everyone who wants to do it to pay Apple an extra $100 on top of what they already paid for their iDevice. (Sharing will get your certificate revoked.)
        wernercd 5y ago
        https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/6/22421912/iphone-web-app-pwa-cloud-gaming-epic-v-apple-safari https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/6/22421912/iphone-web-app-pw...
amelius 5y ago
What happens in a niche market doesn't necessarily apply to a broader market. Also, that's a "but they do it too" fallacy.
fshbbdssbbgdd 5y ago
The standard argument that a 30% is ok for video games but not ok for the App Store is that games are special and different. I don’t find it convincing. I think a better argument is that a 30% cut is wrong full stop, but going after phone app stores is a higher enforcement priority because the stakes are higher. An increasing portion of commerce is digital, and increasing portion is happening on phones. Apple will try to expand the coverage of the 30% cut until someone makes them stop. The only way they can keep growing as a 2 trillion dollar company is to take an increasing cut of the world’s economic activity.
- bsaul 5y ago
  The argument with videogame consoles was that console makers were actually loosing money on each console sold, and would make up for it by taking a larger cut on each game sold. This is of course very different from apple business model.
  - DaiPlusPlus 5y ago
    As well as the cost of running first-party QA processes, namely that “Nintendo Seal of Quality” that was instigated to prevent a repeat of the 1980s video game crash, precipitated by a slew of awful shovelware games for the Atari 2600 in particular). Apple does have their app-review thing - but they said it’s paid-for by the $99 fee, so the 30% cut with all the other Kafkaesque restrictions is not a tenable position. Anyway - my company stopped publishing to the iOS App Store over a year ago and switched to PWAs and no-regrets here at all.
- michaelmrose 5y ago
  It's not ok period if the owner of the device can't choose to install software themselves.
wvenable 5y ago
Microsoft and Sony take 30% of game revenue. A piece of software is sold and they take a cut. They also take a cut of in app purchases of game expansions and game items. Apple, on the other hand, wants to take a cut of every non-physical item purchase on their platform regardless of what it is. They also don't want any non-physical item purchases to occur off their platform. Unlike Microsoft and Sony, Apple's platform is a gateway to all kinds of businesses selling all kinds of goods, both physical and digital, with a range of business models. Apple could even take a cut of physical item purchases if they wanted; they just decided they don't want to (for obvious reasons). I agree it's similar but it's also not exactly the same.
- ajmurmann 5y ago
  I don't think I see the difference in what you are describing Sony does vs Apple does. What's the non-physical items sold on PlayStation that Sony doesn't take a cut for?
  - wvenable 5y ago
    That's not what I mean. Take this example: Fanhouse is an app that sells a digital products created by end users and pays those creators for the content that end users subscribe to. In terms of business relationship and product something like this can't exist on gaming platforms. Game platforms are strictly for publishers to sell their own gaming content. iOS is a gateway to businesses selling both physical and digital wares of all types. By their good graces, they don't force physical items through their payment processor but they do for digital goods regardless of what that good is (with a few notable exceptions).
    - Jcowell 5y ago
      While I understand what you’re saying The Xbox can download non-gaming apps. Consoles are not locked down to only games.
- atty 5y ago
  Microsoft and Sony also take a percentage of in game transactions on their platforms. I don’t see how this is any different.
pessimizer 5y ago
Price-fixing as a defense is so odd.
LocalH 5y ago
"Industry standard", by itself, is meaningless. What if "industry standard" was 75%?
- valparaiso 5y ago
  Tell this to the judge which stated this to Epic lawyers lmao. Don’t forget that Tencent who’s behind Epic takes 50% fee in its Android store in China and Tim Sweeney bans everyone in Twitter who reminds about this fact.
  - jagger27 5y ago
    I'd love to hear his response to this in a court setting.

manigandham 5y ago

There are alternate ways to get software on those platforms. There isn’t on Apple mobile devices.

dwaite 5y ago
Citation needed? (For Playstation, XBox)
- michaelmrose 5y ago
  That too isn't ok
- manigandham 5y ago
  Physical disks.
  - j_koreth 5y ago
    Aren't physical disks also liable to give Sony and Microsoft a cut?
    - wernercd 5y ago
      Do physical disks come with "you cant sell me at less" restrictions like Apple enforces? With "you can't use any payment store other than apple"? The number of restrictions on top of Apples cut is what makes the difference. The mafia wishes they could enforce the same restrictions. Apple makes them look reasonable.
  - immackay 5y ago
    The only point I seem to see from you throughout this post is that you can use physical disks on playstation/xbox, but even that is dependent on having a playstation/xbox with a disk drive. Additionally, Sony/Microsoft still receive a cut from those sales.
    - manigandham 5y ago
      The point is there is still an alternative. It's not quite the same as they act as publishers and distribution partners in gaming vs mobile devices. There should absolutely be more access to stores there too though, with Steam and Epic on Xbox or Playstation. Why is this so controversial for you?
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
immackay 5y ago
There is indeed alternative ways to get software on Apple mobile devices. Why is this such a common belief? Edit: your point seems to be revolving around the access to physical disks for playstation/xbox, which is 1. Limited to devices that have a disk drive, 2. Limited to software that would similarly be sold on the sony/xbox stores, and 3. Still gives sony/microsoft a cut of the sale. Edit 2: No, I'm not talking about webapps. You can sideload apps with a free developer account, similar to xbox. Edit 3: Right, well I guess I'm being "purposely ignorant" and am actually talking about web apps. This was fun HN, lovely discussion. Edit 4: It does indeed only require a free developer account, and you can strip and resign apps without needing to compile from source.
- josephcsible 5y ago
  Jailbreaking doesn't count.
  - immackay 5y ago
    No jailbreaking necessary. Edit: Can't reply further, but the way of doing this is much the same as installing unsigned apps on an xbox. Using a (free) developer account you can sideload things quite easy using something like https://github.com/ios-control/ios-deploy https://github.com/ios-control/ios-deploy
    - josephcsible 5y ago
      Can you explain how, then? Edit: So the only way to do it besides jailbreaking is for literally everyone who wants to do it to pay Apple an extra $100 on top of what they already paid for their iDevice. (Sharing will get your certificate revoked.)
      - wernercd 5y ago
        https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/6/22421912/iphone-web-app-pwa-cloud-gaming-epic-v-apple-safari https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/6/22421912/iphone-web-app-pw...

amelius 5y ago

What happens in a niche market doesn't necessarily apply to a broader market. Also, that's a "but they do it too" fallacy.

fshbbdssbbgdd 5y ago

The standard argument that a 30% is ok for video games but not ok for the App Store is that games are special and different. I don’t find it convincing. I think a better argument is that a 30% cut is wrong full stop, but going after phone app stores is a higher enforcement priority because the stakes are higher. An increasing portion of commerce is digital, and increasing portion is happening on phones. Apple will try to expand the coverage of the 30% cut until someone makes them stop. The only way they can keep growing as a 2 trillion dollar company is to take an increasing cut of the world’s economic activity.

bsaul 5y ago
The argument with videogame consoles was that console makers were actually loosing money on each console sold, and would make up for it by taking a larger cut on each game sold. This is of course very different from apple business model.
- DaiPlusPlus 5y ago
  As well as the cost of running first-party QA processes, namely that “Nintendo Seal of Quality” that was instigated to prevent a repeat of the 1980s video game crash, precipitated by a slew of awful shovelware games for the Atari 2600 in particular). Apple does have their app-review thing - but they said it’s paid-for by the $99 fee, so the 30% cut with all the other Kafkaesque restrictions is not a tenable position. Anyway - my company stopped publishing to the iOS App Store over a year ago and switched to PWAs and no-regrets here at all.
michaelmrose 5y ago
It's not ok period if the owner of the device can't choose to install software themselves.

wvenable 5y ago

Microsoft and Sony take 30% of game revenue. A piece of software is sold and they take a cut. They also take a cut of in app purchases of game expansions and game items. Apple, on the other hand, wants to take a cut of every non-physical item purchase on their platform regardless of what it is. They also don't want any non-physical item purchases to occur off their platform. Unlike Microsoft and Sony, Apple's platform is a gateway to all kinds of businesses selling all kinds of goods, both physical and digital, with a range of business models. Apple could even take a cut of physical item purchases if they wanted; they just decided they don't want to (for obvious reasons). I agree it's similar but it's also not exactly the same.

ajmurmann 5y ago
I don't think I see the difference in what you are describing Sony does vs Apple does. What's the non-physical items sold on PlayStation that Sony doesn't take a cut for?
- wvenable 5y ago
  That's not what I mean. Take this example: Fanhouse is an app that sells a digital products created by end users and pays those creators for the content that end users subscribe to. In terms of business relationship and product something like this can't exist on gaming platforms. Game platforms are strictly for publishers to sell their own gaming content. iOS is a gateway to businesses selling both physical and digital wares of all types. By their good graces, they don't force physical items through their payment processor but they do for digital goods regardless of what that good is (with a few notable exceptions).
  - Jcowell 5y ago
    While I understand what you’re saying The Xbox can download non-gaming apps. Consoles are not locked down to only games.
atty 5y ago
Microsoft and Sony also take a percentage of in game transactions on their platforms. I don’t see how this is any different.

pessimizer 5y ago

Price-fixing as a defense is so odd.

LocalH 5y ago

"Industry standard", by itself, is meaningless. What if "industry standard" was 75%?

valparaiso 5y ago
Tell this to the judge which stated this to Epic lawyers lmao. Don’t forget that Tencent who’s behind Epic takes 50% fee in its Android store in China and Tim Sweeney bans everyone in Twitter who reminds about this fact.
- jagger27 5y ago
  I'd love to hear his response to this in a court setting.