8 ms·

You have multiple choices for water, dig a well, buy it from the local grocery store. Same for sewage because self composting toilets exist. Also electricity is

You have multiple choices for water, dig a well, buy it from the local grocery store. Same for sewage because self composting toilets exist. Also electricity isn't a utility just use a stationary bike as a generator or buy solar panels... Just because you have multiple choices doesn't mean something is/isn't a utility. Its pretty arbitrary. They also aren't talking about Google products (most of which are completely irrelevant aside from their ability to help Google sell ads) they are focused solely on search. Not saying they are "right" just that Google's search dominance is a thing and they use it support their own stuff. Eg: You can buy our electricity but it only "recommends" appliances we also sell

bumby 5y ago
To a certain extent, utilities differ in that they are regulated monopolies protected by the government. Any competing water company, for example, can’t just start running water mains without government approval. In exchange for that protection, the existing water utility incurs additional regulations, like needing approvals to raise rates and bring required to provide services to areas where it may not be profitable by itself. Regarding your electrical example, that only works in isolation. You cannot just decide to tie your solar or generator to the grid, for example, because that utility is a regulated public good.
- mfer 5y ago
  With tech (from search to ISPs) there are monopolies. Do they break them up or regulate them like utilities or something else? Our politicians are starting to tackle some real issues and we'll have to see how this shakes out.
- wait_a_minute 5y ago
  Interesting perspective,thanks for sharing!
- wait_a_minute 5y ago
  In general by government protection we just mean that they are receiving property protection from police and from local governmental offices for like water quality inspections, park maintenance, general public services like the post office, etc, right? not that the government decides anything of note for the utility/company of people who are doing their best to run things based on merit and performance and team cohesion and actual delivery of objectives? not any political shit? I ask because I'm truly afraid at what people are starting to think when they talk about government's role, at least from my age or younger and I'm probably on the younger side on this forum so I want to know what the more experienced people here think about this kind of thing.
  - bumby 5y ago
    It’s hard to answer completely because it varies by municipality and I’m not an expert. But the public utility commission does regulate quite a bit, potentially ranging from where a utility can build, how much renewable sources they must have, how much they can charge, etc. In exchange, the utility can essentially be guaranteed that competitors will not be allowed to enter the market. In the past few decades, there has been more movement towards deregulated markets but not without issues. (See the documentary “The Smartest Guys in the Room” if you aren’t already familiar with the story of Enron).
genericuser314 5y ago
I think you're making a category error in your analogy. DuckDuckGo is much more like Google than "dig a well" is like municipal water.
- tigerBL00D 5y ago
  Are those the right categories? Utilities are built (at least partially) and maintained using taxpayer money. Google acquired dominance by collecting user data. In both cases users, as a class, get access to essential services that what wouldn't have been possible without their contributions.
  - vxNsr 5y ago
    Utilities were also originally private competing companies and then they consolidated and the gov decided to make them regulated monopolies bec it made more sense then 10 different companies running their own electric lines. It’s possible to argue that one good search engine makes more sense vs 10 different small ok ones, the gov should step in and regulate.
- sbazerque 5y ago
  I think he's not - when you look at it from the point of view of someone who wants to buy search advertisements. Duck Duck Go doesn't come nearly close to the kind of reach Google has.
  - sangnoir 5y ago
    The difference between DDG and Google ads is quantitative - not qualitative.
- dumbfoundded 5y ago
  There are at least a dozen companies you can buy water from and have it delivered to a giant storage tank made by at least 5 different companies. Or you could use a number of companies to dig a well for you. Many people don't have access to municipal water and when I didn't, this is what I did.
cm2187 5y ago
Or like many people put it after the Parler shutdown, build your own water station and power plant from scratch.
BooneJS 5y ago
It’s actually illegal to drill a well in a municipality that provides water service. You’d have to move to a rural area.
- ngngngng 5y ago
  Even if you do move to alternatives to public utilities, many areas will not allow you to disconnect from them and have a required minimum bill. For example, If I got many solar panels and backup batteries to power my house, I would still be required to pay $5 a month to the local electric company and would not be allowed to disconnect from them.
  - anticensor 5y ago
    > If I got many solar panels and backup batteries to power my house, I would still be required to pay $5 a month to the local electric company and would not be allowed to disconnect from them. That may be true for water and gas, but is usually false for electricity.
- splitstud 5y ago
  This is nowhere near universally true
- bliteben 5y ago
  My neighbor gets city water and has a well for grey water. I live in Washington. Today you learned.
- Biganon 5y ago
  People need to stop acting like the law is the same everywhere. "X is illegal, period" is probably only true for murder and theft, and even then, with a lot of regional variations.
DarknessFalls 5y ago
> You have multiple choices for water, dig a well, buy it from the local grocery store. This is a false equivalence. Comparing Google to a municipal water system and other search engines to purchasing bottled water eliminates certain key features of the service, like water conditioning and infrastructure. I use DuckDuckGo and it is no where near the inconvenience implied by "dig a well".
- ipaddr 5y ago
  Digging a well would be creating your own search engine. You can pay someone to come in an drill that well for you that doesn't exist a paid search engine. Ddg would be like taking the water from a public fountain.
  - Dah00n 5y ago
    More like using the "free" fountain with a DDG logo on it with water being transferred from the nearby Microsoft fountain (but with a promise that they add their own magic sprinkly stuff to the water).
markozivanovic 5y ago
It might be out off topic, but this reminded me of one of the songs that gets recorded and released with every new version of OpenBSD[1], when we're talking about water. It's fun. [1]https://www.openbsd.org/lyrics.html#36 https://www.openbsd.org/lyrics.html#36
justbored123 5y ago
That is a terrible argument. "Go sh*t in a chemical toiled" is not a reasonable alternative, the cost alone is ludicrous. Just have the decency and maturity to admit when you are wrong instead of arguing that you should "go dig a well" in the middle of the city. This is why we can't have reasonable conversations anymore.
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  You completely misunderstood the comment you're replying to. He's saying that the mere existence of alternatives does not preclude something from being a utility.
  - pcmoney 5y ago
    Thank you! I am also not even saying Google _should_ be a utility just that the standards for what makes something a utility candidate are not standard but rather arbitrary. Most utilities came about through lobbying one way or another not through some clinical application of rules. I am concerned with Google's search dominance and its ability to use that to suppress and manipulate even if it is just to get me to buy something.
- anders_p 5y ago
  I pretty sure that you completely missed the point of the comment. - Woosh. He wasn't arguing that building your own toilet is a good option - just that it exists as an option. And the fact of options merely existing, doesn't automatically exclude something from being recognized as a utility.
- theknocker 5y ago
  People who can't admit monopolies exist are why this conversation is consistently stupid. You.
- Dah00n 5y ago
  >"Go sh*t in a chemical toiled" is not a reasonable alternative, the cost alone is ludicrous. "Go buy an iPhone" is not a reasonable alternative, the cost alone is ludicrous. Same situation, different words.
syshum 5y ago
I am not aware of any city or town that has utilities and allows property owners to opt out and dig a well or put in a septic, Maybe you could use composting toilet however you would still be required by law to hook up and maintain a connect to the public water and sewer system or the city would condemn your home
- frosted-flakes 5y ago
  And if you are currently on a well and your municipality brings sewer or water service down your street, you are usually required to connect to them and decommission the septic system and well. (I've heard that you can sometimes keep the well for irrigation purposes, but the house cannot be connected to it and the water cannot go down the drain.)
Slaminerag 5y ago
1) Google isn't carrying anything. It's your ISP that's actually carrying the bits to your house/work/phone/implants. 2) What google search is providing is literally content that they've created. I really don't see how this suit won't get dismissed on first amendment grounds.
- pcmoney 5y ago
  I am not saying the suit has merit or will or won't get dismissed. I am saying Google's dominance in search and its willingness to use that to suppress/influence should make everyone want that to be a more competitive market. It is not good that you need to pay "protection" money to Google so that your business shows up when your exact business name is searched (if your competitors buys your keywords). That is of course ok because its Google's business decision. What is less ok is that there are no new search companies making any headway in regards to market share. It is a stagnant sector of what should be a dynamic industry. I want an endless corporate bar fight of companies trying to be better at search that works incredibly/game-changingly with any tool I have (not just Google apps).
- anders_p 5y ago
  Google has a near monopoly on search traffic. Businesses HAVE to use Google for ads. Only placing ads on DuckDuckGo is not a viable strategy when more than 80% of all search traffic is via Google. Google prioritizes their own products. Sometimes they even copy ideas and implement their own version of a product, and then they bump the competitors below themselves in the search results. THAT is the problem, and why the lawsuit might hold water.
slenk 5y ago
Not necessarily. I know cities where you HAVE to use their water if you want running water. No digging a well.
- pcmoney 5y ago
  Move?
  - slenk 5y ago
    That costs more money
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
nverno 5y ago
how do you dig a well if you live in the city? Buy water from the grocery store to take showers? cmon, this is ridiculous

bumby 5y ago

To a certain extent, utilities differ in that they are regulated monopolies protected by the government. Any competing water company, for example, can’t just start running water mains without government approval. In exchange for that protection, the existing water utility incurs additional regulations, like needing approvals to raise rates and bring required to provide services to areas where it may not be profitable by itself. Regarding your electrical example, that only works in isolation. You cannot just decide to tie your solar or generator to the grid, for example, because that utility is a regulated public good.

mfer 5y ago
With tech (from search to ISPs) there are monopolies. Do they break them up or regulate them like utilities or something else? Our politicians are starting to tackle some real issues and we'll have to see how this shakes out.
wait_a_minute 5y ago
Interesting perspective,thanks for sharing!
wait_a_minute 5y ago
In general by government protection we just mean that they are receiving property protection from police and from local governmental offices for like water quality inspections, park maintenance, general public services like the post office, etc, right? not that the government decides anything of note for the utility/company of people who are doing their best to run things based on merit and performance and team cohesion and actual delivery of objectives? not any political shit? I ask because I'm truly afraid at what people are starting to think when they talk about government's role, at least from my age or younger and I'm probably on the younger side on this forum so I want to know what the more experienced people here think about this kind of thing.
- bumby 5y ago
  It’s hard to answer completely because it varies by municipality and I’m not an expert. But the public utility commission does regulate quite a bit, potentially ranging from where a utility can build, how much renewable sources they must have, how much they can charge, etc. In exchange, the utility can essentially be guaranteed that competitors will not be allowed to enter the market. In the past few decades, there has been more movement towards deregulated markets but not without issues. (See the documentary “The Smartest Guys in the Room” if you aren’t already familiar with the story of Enron).

genericuser314 5y ago

I think you're making a category error in your analogy. DuckDuckGo is much more like Google than "dig a well" is like municipal water.

tigerBL00D 5y ago
Are those the right categories? Utilities are built (at least partially) and maintained using taxpayer money. Google acquired dominance by collecting user data. In both cases users, as a class, get access to essential services that what wouldn't have been possible without their contributions.
- vxNsr 5y ago
  Utilities were also originally private competing companies and then they consolidated and the gov decided to make them regulated monopolies bec it made more sense then 10 different companies running their own electric lines. It’s possible to argue that one good search engine makes more sense vs 10 different small ok ones, the gov should step in and regulate.
sbazerque 5y ago
I think he's not - when you look at it from the point of view of someone who wants to buy search advertisements. Duck Duck Go doesn't come nearly close to the kind of reach Google has.
- sangnoir 5y ago
  The difference between DDG and Google ads is quantitative - not qualitative.
dumbfoundded 5y ago
There are at least a dozen companies you can buy water from and have it delivered to a giant storage tank made by at least 5 different companies. Or you could use a number of companies to dig a well for you. Many people don't have access to municipal water and when I didn't, this is what I did.

cm2187 5y ago

Or like many people put it after the Parler shutdown, build your own water station and power plant from scratch.

BooneJS 5y ago

It’s actually illegal to drill a well in a municipality that provides water service. You’d have to move to a rural area.

ngngngng 5y ago
Even if you do move to alternatives to public utilities, many areas will not allow you to disconnect from them and have a required minimum bill. For example, If I got many solar panels and backup batteries to power my house, I would still be required to pay $5 a month to the local electric company and would not be allowed to disconnect from them.
- anticensor 5y ago
  > If I got many solar panels and backup batteries to power my house, I would still be required to pay $5 a month to the local electric company and would not be allowed to disconnect from them. That may be true for water and gas, but is usually false for electricity.
splitstud 5y ago
This is nowhere near universally true
bliteben 5y ago
My neighbor gets city water and has a well for grey water. I live in Washington. Today you learned.
Biganon 5y ago
People need to stop acting like the law is the same everywhere. "X is illegal, period" is probably only true for murder and theft, and even then, with a lot of regional variations.

DarknessFalls 5y ago

> You have multiple choices for water, dig a well, buy it from the local grocery store. This is a false equivalence. Comparing Google to a municipal water system and other search engines to purchasing bottled water eliminates certain key features of the service, like water conditioning and infrastructure. I use DuckDuckGo and it is no where near the inconvenience implied by "dig a well".

ipaddr 5y ago
Digging a well would be creating your own search engine. You can pay someone to come in an drill that well for you that doesn't exist a paid search engine. Ddg would be like taking the water from a public fountain.
- Dah00n 5y ago
  More like using the "free" fountain with a DDG logo on it with water being transferred from the nearby Microsoft fountain (but with a promise that they add their own magic sprinkly stuff to the water).

markozivanovic 5y ago

It might be out off topic, but this reminded me of one of the songs that gets recorded and released with every new version of OpenBSD[1], when we're talking about water. It's fun. [1]https://www.openbsd.org/lyrics.html#36 https://www.openbsd.org/lyrics.html#36

justbored123 5y ago

That is a terrible argument. "Go sh*t in a chemical toiled" is not a reasonable alternative, the cost alone is ludicrous. Just have the decency and maturity to admit when you are wrong instead of arguing that you should "go dig a well" in the middle of the city. This is why we can't have reasonable conversations anymore.

throwaway0a5e 5y ago
You completely misunderstood the comment you're replying to. He's saying that the mere existence of alternatives does not preclude something from being a utility.
- pcmoney 5y ago
  Thank you! I am also not even saying Google _should_ be a utility just that the standards for what makes something a utility candidate are not standard but rather arbitrary. Most utilities came about through lobbying one way or another not through some clinical application of rules. I am concerned with Google's search dominance and its ability to use that to suppress and manipulate even if it is just to get me to buy something.
anders_p 5y ago
I pretty sure that you completely missed the point of the comment. - Woosh. He wasn't arguing that building your own toilet is a good option - just that it exists as an option. And the fact of options merely existing, doesn't automatically exclude something from being recognized as a utility.
theknocker 5y ago
People who can't admit monopolies exist are why this conversation is consistently stupid. You.
Dah00n 5y ago
>"Go sh*t in a chemical toiled" is not a reasonable alternative, the cost alone is ludicrous. "Go buy an iPhone" is not a reasonable alternative, the cost alone is ludicrous. Same situation, different words.

syshum 5y ago

I am not aware of any city or town that has utilities and allows property owners to opt out and dig a well or put in a septic, Maybe you could use composting toilet however you would still be required by law to hook up and maintain a connect to the public water and sewer system or the city would condemn your home

frosted-flakes 5y ago
And if you are currently on a well and your municipality brings sewer or water service down your street, you are usually required to connect to them and decommission the septic system and well. (I've heard that you can sometimes keep the well for irrigation purposes, but the house cannot be connected to it and the water cannot go down the drain.)

Slaminerag 5y ago

1) Google isn't carrying anything. It's your ISP that's actually carrying the bits to your house/work/phone/implants. 2) What google search is providing is literally content that they've created. I really don't see how this suit won't get dismissed on first amendment grounds.

pcmoney 5y ago
I am not saying the suit has merit or will or won't get dismissed. I am saying Google's dominance in search and its willingness to use that to suppress/influence should make everyone want that to be a more competitive market. It is not good that you need to pay "protection" money to Google so that your business shows up when your exact business name is searched (if your competitors buys your keywords). That is of course ok because its Google's business decision. What is less ok is that there are no new search companies making any headway in regards to market share. It is a stagnant sector of what should be a dynamic industry. I want an endless corporate bar fight of companies trying to be better at search that works incredibly/game-changingly with any tool I have (not just Google apps).
anders_p 5y ago
Google has a near monopoly on search traffic. Businesses HAVE to use Google for ads. Only placing ads on DuckDuckGo is not a viable strategy when more than 80% of all search traffic is via Google. Google prioritizes their own products. Sometimes they even copy ideas and implement their own version of a product, and then they bump the competitors below themselves in the search results. THAT is the problem, and why the lawsuit might hold water.

slenk 5y ago

Not necessarily. I know cities where you HAVE to use their water if you want running water. No digging a well.

pcmoney 5y ago
Move?
- slenk 5y ago
  That costs more money

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

nverno 5y ago

how do you dig a well if you live in the city? Buy water from the grocery store to take showers? cmon, this is ridiculous