3 ms·

Dunno, do agile rockets dodge? Or just follow a simple preprogrammed patterns (like low, then pop up to attack from above)? Not sure a CIWS system that can hi

by sliken 5y ago

Dunno, do agile rockets dodge? Or just follow a simple preprogrammed patterns (like low, then pop up to attack from above)? Not sure a CIWS system that can hit a mach 2 missile that doesn't dodge would necessarily handle the same $$$ spent on a N cheaper drones. How many minutes of firing do modern CIWS systems typically have? Loitering at max engagement range and dodging might well end up using ammo at a rate that the CIWS can not sustain. Also I suspect any CIWS can get a kill on just about any part of a missile, where drones often have very small kill zones (often battery or gas, payload, motor(s), and control) that might well be just a few % of the size of the drone. I googled the phalanx, looks like it typically has a drum of ammo that lasts for about 3 seconds. Is that 3 drones worth? 10? 100?

mlyle 5y ago
> Also I suspect any CIWS can get a kill on just about any part of a missile, where drones often have very small kill zones (often battery or gas, payload, motor(s), and control) that might well be just a few % of the size of the drone. I guarantee you that just grazing a drone with a 20mm round will still kill it, even if you don't "hit" anything critical. :P
- sliken 5y ago
  Really? Say you blow a 1" hole in a wing that's got some balsa struts and some thin fabric? Or a wing just made out of a sheet of foam? Both are common on cheap drones. Sure the 20mm round represents an amazing amount of kinetic energy, but the drone doesn't offer any resistance, and I wouldn't expect the round to even notice. Sure the disturbance in the air might throw the drone for a few loops, but any decent software will recover. Sure hitting more substantial targets the target itself becomes of the shrapnel that causes an ever increasing zone of damage. Not clear to me that a piece of paper or thin fabric would exhibit the same behavior.
  - mlyle 5y ago
    Speaking as someone who's built and destroyed lots of homebuilt aircraft, and shot lots of things with guns of various sizes... 1. I think you're conflating "cheap agile drone" with "foam or balsa+durakote fixed wing aircraft". 2. Probable engagement aspect for a drone is not "straight up", as would be necessary for your scenario. 3. A little itty bitty hole in a wing does a whole lot more than you'd think. 4. Expecting a high velocity cannon round to just punch a clean hole in the wing is a little much. Foam's a bit more robust, but a small pebble at a few miles per hour has wrecked my whole durakote day before. And yes, there's degenerate cases, like you could have a whole sheet of dollar tree foam board maybe take a hit or two.
  - ethbr0 5y ago
    In the C-RAM role, Phalanx uses 20mm M940 MPT-SD rounds. Explosive (self-destructing) and incendiary https://www.gd-ots.com/munitions/medium-caliber-ammunition/20mm-m940-mpt-sd/ https://www.gd-ots.com/munitions/medium-caliber-ammunition/2...
wearywanderer 5y ago
> Dunno, do agile rockets dodge? Or just follow a simple preprogrammed patterns (like low, then pop up to attack from above)? Modern antiship missiles have complex programs. Some are capable of flying in formation with each other, with one missile flying high for visibility and communicating with the other missiles in the formation that are flying very low. If/when the missile on top is destroyed, another missile in the formation can be automatically selected to take its place.
imtringued 5y ago
How do you "dodge" airburst ammunition? Can your drone instantaneously change direction at the speed of an explosion? What the hell am I reading here? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdwjcayPuag https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdwjcayPuag Edit: Look they even made a smaller system! https://youtu.be/Drm3kdDYBI4 https://youtu.be/Drm3kdDYBI4
- jobigoud 5y ago
  This seems to aim by calculating the trajectory of the target. How will it fare if the target is flown in first person perspective by a human in an unpredictable way?
  - blueblisters 5y ago
    It’s airburst ammunition which can be fired faster and travels faster than a human can react. The airburst is timed to trigger at the calculated intersection of trajectories (or somewhere in that neighbourhood), significantly improving your chances of scoring a hit even with a high circular error probable.

by sliken 5y ago

mlyle 5y ago

> Also I suspect any CIWS can get a kill on just about any part of a missile, where drones often have very small kill zones (often battery or gas, payload, motor(s), and control) that might well be just a few % of the size of the drone. I guarantee you that just grazing a drone with a 20mm round will still kill it, even if you don't "hit" anything critical. :P

sliken 5y ago
Really? Say you blow a 1" hole in a wing that's got some balsa struts and some thin fabric? Or a wing just made out of a sheet of foam? Both are common on cheap drones. Sure the 20mm round represents an amazing amount of kinetic energy, but the drone doesn't offer any resistance, and I wouldn't expect the round to even notice. Sure the disturbance in the air might throw the drone for a few loops, but any decent software will recover. Sure hitting more substantial targets the target itself becomes of the shrapnel that causes an ever increasing zone of damage. Not clear to me that a piece of paper or thin fabric would exhibit the same behavior.
- mlyle 5y ago
  Speaking as someone who's built and destroyed lots of homebuilt aircraft, and shot lots of things with guns of various sizes... 1. I think you're conflating "cheap agile drone" with "foam or balsa+durakote fixed wing aircraft". 2. Probable engagement aspect for a drone is not "straight up", as would be necessary for your scenario. 3. A little itty bitty hole in a wing does a whole lot more than you'd think. 4. Expecting a high velocity cannon round to just punch a clean hole in the wing is a little much. Foam's a bit more robust, but a small pebble at a few miles per hour has wrecked my whole durakote day before. And yes, there's degenerate cases, like you could have a whole sheet of dollar tree foam board maybe take a hit or two.
- ethbr0 5y ago
  In the C-RAM role, Phalanx uses 20mm M940 MPT-SD rounds. Explosive (self-destructing) and incendiary https://www.gd-ots.com/munitions/medium-caliber-ammunition/20mm-m940-mpt-sd/ https://www.gd-ots.com/munitions/medium-caliber-ammunition/2...

wearywanderer 5y ago

> Dunno, do agile rockets dodge? Or just follow a simple preprogrammed patterns (like low, then pop up to attack from above)? Modern antiship missiles have complex programs. Some are capable of flying in formation with each other, with one missile flying high for visibility and communicating with the other missiles in the formation that are flying very low. If/when the missile on top is destroyed, another missile in the formation can be automatically selected to take its place.

imtringued 5y ago

How do you "dodge" airburst ammunition? Can your drone instantaneously change direction at the speed of an explosion? What the hell am I reading here? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdwjcayPuag https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdwjcayPuag Edit: Look they even made a smaller system! https://youtu.be/Drm3kdDYBI4 https://youtu.be/Drm3kdDYBI4

jobigoud 5y ago
This seems to aim by calculating the trajectory of the target. How will it fare if the target is flown in first person perspective by a human in an unpredictable way?
- blueblisters 5y ago
  It’s airburst ammunition which can be fired faster and travels faster than a human can react. The airburst is timed to trigger at the calculated intersection of trajectories (or somewhere in that neighbourhood), significantly improving your chances of scoring a hit even with a high circular error probable.