5 ms·

In Siberia they heat using btc mining: https://archive.curbed.com/2017/11/9/16619032/bitcoin-mining-heat-homes-siberia-russia https://archive.curbed.com/2017/11

In Siberia they heat using btc mining: https://archive.curbed.com/2017/11/9/16619032/bitcoin-mining-heat-homes-siberia-russia https://archive.curbed.com/2017/11/9/16619032/bitcoin-mining...

Analemma_ 5y ago
For about the zillionth time, space heating with Bitcoin mining is about one-quarter as energy-efficient as using an actual heat pump and so the “we can heat buildings with it!” argument does not actually excuse the massive energy use at all.
- bobthebuilders 5y ago
  Bitcoins use an entropy increasing resistance hash function, which makes it terrible for heating and cooling. There's a reason why we should use FedCoin instead of Bitcoin or cash or gold.
  - Syonyk 5y ago
    It... what? If you put 1000W of electrical energy into a Bitcoin miner, you get 1000W of heat out the far end. It's the same efficiency as a resistive element space heater, just has done some work (useful or not, it's still work) on the way through. Same thing for a computer running BOINC or Folding@Home. Power goes in, heat comes out, but you've done something useful in the gap.
    - imtringued 5y ago
      Congratulations, you have reduced your heating bill by $x! You can now spend $x on mining and get more Bitcoin!
      - Syonyk 5y ago
        I knew someone last winter, during the spike in Bitcoin prices, who had done the math and figured out that heating on some older Bitcoin miners was profitable. Not only was the value of Bitcoin produced greater than his power cost (not everyone has CA power costs), it meant he wasn't paying anything separately for heat. I think he got them for very little because they "weren't profitable to run" when they were being sold. I typically heat my office (off grid solar shed) in the winter on waste compute - I've got a few computers in here that run Folding@Home/BOINC and I just run them if I've got surplus power. I have propane backup for the really dark grey days ("generator days" if they extend past about a day - it's cheaper to run a gallon of gas through an old generator than to radically expand my battery bank), but most of my winter heat comes from running F@H/BOINC. To the point that on a clear, sunny winter day, I have my window open and fans sucking cold air in or I'll roast in here. I can hold about 1.8kW of load no problem on a clear day. Now that I have solar on the house, I've considered adding an old compute rig or two in there for winter heat. It's less efficient than our heat pump on warm days, but we also get some cold, grey, foggy days in which the heat pump likes to ice up badly. Normally, if the heat pump isn't keeping up with things, the thermostat will call for the backup coils (which are just big resistors) to aid, and they're the same efficiency at turning electricity into heat as a couple computers. Old Xeons aren't amazingly power efficient, but you can also get them for free or nearly so and throw compute at your preferred projects. One can optimize for a wide variety of things - energy spent, compute performed, Bitcoin mined, minimum cost, etc. It works better, and is a lot more efficient, if you look at everything as a system and integrate it. I don't run BOINC tasks on my homeserver when we're in air conditioning season, but I light up a couple cores of them in the winter.
- artifact_44 5y ago
  So.. somehow the heat output of a mining computer just disappears? Oh wait that's nonsense, because your CPU is literally a heat pump.
  - wizzwizz4 5y ago
    A heat pump moves heat around, using energy – the opposite of a Sterling engine.
  - Syonyk 5y ago
    The metric being discussed relates to how much thermal energy you get for a given electrical input. If you put 1000W into a Bitcoin miner, computer, resistive space heater, etc, you get 1000W thermal out. If you use that 1000W to turn the compressor in a heat pump, you get far more heat out (3-4x is a reasonable average in a lot of areas), because you're not simply generating heat from the energy - you're using the energy to move heat. A heat pump is an air conditioner in reverse - you cool the outside air and heat the inside air. A standard CPU dissipates heat as a resistive heater would - you pump 100W into the CPU, you get 100W of heat out. I'm not sure what you're using to claim that a CPU "is literally a heat pump" here - it's not, by any standard definition of a heat pump.
  - function_seven 5y ago
    A "heat pump" in this context is a device that uses a refrigeration cycle to extract heat from outside and move it inside. An A/C running in reverse, essentially. And heat pumps are vastly more efficient than resistive heating (or using the heat from a microchip). In many places, for every 1W of power a heat pump consumes, it can move 4W or more of heat into the space.
  - eutropia 5y ago
    A heat pump is a specific technology, not a generic term for something that produces heat: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump
  - CrazyStat 5y ago
    No, your CPU is a resistive heater, which is less efficient than a heat pump.
- beiller 5y ago
  I commented above but from my understanding heat pumps are worse than baseboard electric heaters when the temperature outside is below zero celsius (assume the air is exchanged outside) because the fins start to ice over due to condensation and it's why no heat pumps are used in so many countries that are cold. But I have only researched a bit would appreciate any expert opinions!
  - Syonyk 5y ago
    The 0C limit was true in the 80s, but isn't nearly as true now. My unit, which is far from a top of the line heat pump, holds a COP >1 down to about -15F, or -26C. However, you're correct about coils icing up. That impacts some regions more than others. I'm in a fairly dry high desert climate, and our coils don't ice up unless we have fog (at which point, yes, they ice badly). There are defrost cycles that reverse the unit and melt the ice, but it is a problem in climates where it tends very humid in the winter. However, there are a lot of places where it works fine, and one can always use a dual fuel setup, where a heat pump is used down to whatever temperature it starts having problems, then switch over to something else (gas fired furnaces are the usual backing option) in the extreme cold. You still get the energy savings of the heat pump while it works well, but can keep a house warm down to quite chilly temperatures. Of course, if it gets really cold, a ground source unit becomes worth looking at (heat exchange with the ground, either via a deep well or a bunch of coils under the yard).
elil17 5y ago
Unfortunately it’s still way, way less efficient than other heating systems like heat pumps This also doesn’t address the wasted materials and labor used to make the chips.
- ClumsyPilot 5y ago
  I dont think heat pumps work in sibearian winter of -40
  - vidanay 5y ago
    F or C? /s
  - throw0101a 5y ago
    The limits seems to be -25C/-15F, and I'm guessing that's because of the refrigerant that generally used in residential HVAC (R-410A?).
- lordofgibbons 5y ago
  > Unfortunately it’s still way, way less efficient than other heating systems like heat pumps That's not necessarily always the case. There's a threshold where the delta between the outside ambient temperature and desired indoor temperature is too large, it becomes more efficient to use something like resistive heating rather than a heat-pump
- beiller 5y ago
  Not really. Heat pumps can't be used in cold climates due to ice forming on heat fins which breaks the efficiency. It's why we use a lot of baseboard heaters in Canada. Bitcoin mining would be perfect for electric heating of homes here. Plus the added bonus of eliminating green house gas emissions from burning natural gas in a furnace (how my house is heated). The problem with baseboard is that gas heating is far cheaper than electric. So could Bitcoin actually be used to make the world greener?
  - minitoar 5y ago
formerly_proven 5y ago
That seems only marginally better than the not-uncommon mode of heating (gas) and temperature control (windows).
- elil17 5y ago
  It’s actually worse than gas due to the inefficiencies inherent in power generation and transmission
  - artifact_44 5y ago
    nonsense. it's electricity. Gas doesn't have the option of coming from carbon neutral sources.
    - elil17 5y ago
      Well sure if you happen to live somewhere that has 100% carbon neutral electricity - but in that (very rare) case the electricity use for mining Bitcoin without heating your house is also not an environmental problem. In reality, the vast majority of Russian electricity comes from fossil fuels.
    - formerly_proven 5y ago
      Electricity generation in Russia is about two thirds gas and coal.
    - imtringued 5y ago
      Turning gas into heat is very efficient. Turning gas into electricity and then into heat is not. Winter heating with renewables is problematic. You need to meet very strict insulation standards for it to be viable.

In Siberia they heat using btc mining: https://archive.curbed.com/2017/11/9/16619032/bitcoin-mining-heat-homes-siberia-russia https://archive.curbed.com/2017/11/9/16619032/bitcoin-mining...

Analemma_ 5y ago

For about the zillionth time, space heating with Bitcoin mining is about one-quarter as energy-efficient as using an actual heat pump and so the “we can heat buildings with it!” argument does not actually excuse the massive energy use at all.

bobthebuilders 5y ago
Bitcoins use an entropy increasing resistance hash function, which makes it terrible for heating and cooling. There's a reason why we should use FedCoin instead of Bitcoin or cash or gold.
- Syonyk 5y ago
  It... what? If you put 1000W of electrical energy into a Bitcoin miner, you get 1000W of heat out the far end. It's the same efficiency as a resistive element space heater, just has done some work (useful or not, it's still work) on the way through. Same thing for a computer running BOINC or Folding@Home. Power goes in, heat comes out, but you've done something useful in the gap.
  - imtringued 5y ago
    Congratulations, you have reduced your heating bill by $x! You can now spend $x on mining and get more Bitcoin!
    - Syonyk 5y ago
      I knew someone last winter, during the spike in Bitcoin prices, who had done the math and figured out that heating on some older Bitcoin miners was profitable. Not only was the value of Bitcoin produced greater than his power cost (not everyone has CA power costs), it meant he wasn't paying anything separately for heat. I think he got them for very little because they "weren't profitable to run" when they were being sold. I typically heat my office (off grid solar shed) in the winter on waste compute - I've got a few computers in here that run Folding@Home/BOINC and I just run them if I've got surplus power. I have propane backup for the really dark grey days ("generator days" if they extend past about a day - it's cheaper to run a gallon of gas through an old generator than to radically expand my battery bank), but most of my winter heat comes from running F@H/BOINC. To the point that on a clear, sunny winter day, I have my window open and fans sucking cold air in or I'll roast in here. I can hold about 1.8kW of load no problem on a clear day. Now that I have solar on the house, I've considered adding an old compute rig or two in there for winter heat. It's less efficient than our heat pump on warm days, but we also get some cold, grey, foggy days in which the heat pump likes to ice up badly. Normally, if the heat pump isn't keeping up with things, the thermostat will call for the backup coils (which are just big resistors) to aid, and they're the same efficiency at turning electricity into heat as a couple computers. Old Xeons aren't amazingly power efficient, but you can also get them for free or nearly so and throw compute at your preferred projects. One can optimize for a wide variety of things - energy spent, compute performed, Bitcoin mined, minimum cost, etc. It works better, and is a lot more efficient, if you look at everything as a system and integrate it. I don't run BOINC tasks on my homeserver when we're in air conditioning season, but I light up a couple cores of them in the winter.
artifact_44 5y ago
So.. somehow the heat output of a mining computer just disappears? Oh wait that's nonsense, because your CPU is literally a heat pump.
- wizzwizz4 5y ago
  A heat pump moves heat around, using energy – the opposite of a Sterling engine.
- Syonyk 5y ago
  The metric being discussed relates to how much thermal energy you get for a given electrical input. If you put 1000W into a Bitcoin miner, computer, resistive space heater, etc, you get 1000W thermal out. If you use that 1000W to turn the compressor in a heat pump, you get far more heat out (3-4x is a reasonable average in a lot of areas), because you're not simply generating heat from the energy - you're using the energy to move heat. A heat pump is an air conditioner in reverse - you cool the outside air and heat the inside air. A standard CPU dissipates heat as a resistive heater would - you pump 100W into the CPU, you get 100W of heat out. I'm not sure what you're using to claim that a CPU "is literally a heat pump" here - it's not, by any standard definition of a heat pump.
- function_seven 5y ago
  A "heat pump" in this context is a device that uses a refrigeration cycle to extract heat from outside and move it inside. An A/C running in reverse, essentially. And heat pumps are vastly more efficient than resistive heating (or using the heat from a microchip). In many places, for every 1W of power a heat pump consumes, it can move 4W or more of heat into the space.
- eutropia 5y ago
  A heat pump is a specific technology, not a generic term for something that produces heat: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump
- CrazyStat 5y ago
  No, your CPU is a resistive heater, which is less efficient than a heat pump.
beiller 5y ago
I commented above but from my understanding heat pumps are worse than baseboard electric heaters when the temperature outside is below zero celsius (assume the air is exchanged outside) because the fins start to ice over due to condensation and it's why no heat pumps are used in so many countries that are cold. But I have only researched a bit would appreciate any expert opinions!
- Syonyk 5y ago
  The 0C limit was true in the 80s, but isn't nearly as true now. My unit, which is far from a top of the line heat pump, holds a COP >1 down to about -15F, or -26C. However, you're correct about coils icing up. That impacts some regions more than others. I'm in a fairly dry high desert climate, and our coils don't ice up unless we have fog (at which point, yes, they ice badly). There are defrost cycles that reverse the unit and melt the ice, but it is a problem in climates where it tends very humid in the winter. However, there are a lot of places where it works fine, and one can always use a dual fuel setup, where a heat pump is used down to whatever temperature it starts having problems, then switch over to something else (gas fired furnaces are the usual backing option) in the extreme cold. You still get the energy savings of the heat pump while it works well, but can keep a house warm down to quite chilly temperatures. Of course, if it gets really cold, a ground source unit becomes worth looking at (heat exchange with the ground, either via a deep well or a bunch of coils under the yard).

elil17 5y ago

Unfortunately it’s still way, way less efficient than other heating systems like heat pumps This also doesn’t address the wasted materials and labor used to make the chips.

ClumsyPilot 5y ago
I dont think heat pumps work in sibearian winter of -40
- vidanay 5y ago
  F or C? /s
- throw0101a 5y ago
  The limits seems to be -25C/-15F, and I'm guessing that's because of the refrigerant that generally used in residential HVAC (R-410A?).
lordofgibbons 5y ago
> Unfortunately it’s still way, way less efficient than other heating systems like heat pumps That's not necessarily always the case. There's a threshold where the delta between the outside ambient temperature and desired indoor temperature is too large, it becomes more efficient to use something like resistive heating rather than a heat-pump
beiller 5y ago
Not really. Heat pumps can't be used in cold climates due to ice forming on heat fins which breaks the efficiency. It's why we use a lot of baseboard heaters in Canada. Bitcoin mining would be perfect for electric heating of homes here. Plus the added bonus of eliminating green house gas emissions from burning natural gas in a furnace (how my house is heated). The problem with baseboard is that gas heating is far cheaper than electric. So could Bitcoin actually be used to make the world greener?
- minitoar 5y ago

formerly_proven 5y ago

That seems only marginally better than the not-uncommon mode of heating (gas) and temperature control (windows).

elil17 5y ago
It’s actually worse than gas due to the inefficiencies inherent in power generation and transmission
- artifact_44 5y ago
  nonsense. it's electricity. Gas doesn't have the option of coming from carbon neutral sources.
  - elil17 5y ago
    Well sure if you happen to live somewhere that has 100% carbon neutral electricity - but in that (very rare) case the electricity use for mining Bitcoin without heating your house is also not an environmental problem. In reality, the vast majority of Russian electricity comes from fossil fuels.
  - formerly_proven 5y ago
    Electricity generation in Russia is about two thirds gas and coal.
  - imtringued 5y ago
    Turning gas into heat is very efficient. Turning gas into electricity and then into heat is not. Winter heating with renewables is problematic. You need to meet very strict insulation standards for it to be viable.