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It copied even unique, invisible aspects of Replit's architecture that I consider to be flaws. That's the hallmark of copying versus merely writing one's own pr

It copied even unique, invisible aspects of Replit's architecture that I consider to be flaws. That's the hallmark of copying versus merely writing one's own program to solve the same problem. Or the hallmark of having experience working in a particular domain, and simply favoring techniques and approaches that are familiar. Is there any particular reason why anybody should believe that any of these "unique, invisible aspects of Replit's architecture" constitute any kind of genuine "intellectual property" in either a legal OR moral sense?? I mean, if you're arguing that he literally copied copyrighted code, then sure, OK, maybe you have something. But nebulous appeals to "design decisions?" Don't expect many people to have sympathy for that. At some point you're treading into "anybody who ever worked for a company making cars can never work for another car company" or "A guy who makes a new chair owes money to everyone who ever built a chair" territory.

mmastrac 5y ago
What's interesting is that the redacted full thread alludes to some of these invisible aspects, and Radon appears to have a justification for doing things that way (though it's all blacked out so we cannot evaluate the merits of that argument). https://imgur.com/a/OaEOwu2 https://imgur.com/a/OaEOwu2 https://github.com/replit/upm https://github.com/replit/upm is likely one of the blacked-out bits in that email, as Radon says he wrote the README.
- ZephyrBlu 5y ago
  I find it telling that Radon wrote out an extensive explanation of why he believes his project is not based on replit, and Amjad basically responds with "you're wrong, you copied it" without addressing anything Radon said.
  - Aeolun 5y ago
    To be fair, there’s only a few ways to say that the correct solution seems obvious in hindsight. I agree with Amjad there. I just don’t think that working with something means you can never use those patterns again. That’s ridiculous. If I couldn’t use any of the patterns that I learned about in previous jobs I would still be programming as if I had 1 year of university experience.
    - ZephyrBlu 5y ago
      Have you read Radon's redacted email that goes over the technical details? It doesn't look like post-hoc rationalization.
      - Aeolun 5y ago
        Yeah, I did, but not sure what you mean here?
        ZephyrBlu 5y ago
        What I mean is that it doesn't seem like this is a "the correct solution seems obvious in hindsight" situation based on Radon's technical explanation of his project.
- wolpoli 5y ago
  "It is unethical and would be obviously so to outside observers as well. Feel free to consult with your mentors or people with more experience than you in the industry." Wow. Amjad basically invited Radon to post about this online.
  - gip 5y ago
    And it comes across as very condescending imo. We are in a world where a brilliant intern may know or sense as well as any CEO, from YC or not. That what makes this world interesting.
tmotwu 5y ago
I am not sure I agree. The topic of intellectual property and trade secrets in software, or if IP laws should even apply, is probably another discussion entirely. However, there's no reason to trivialize it to cutthroat copy and pasted code. If Radon was a state actor, I am unsure HN would be responding the same way here. Obviously, knowledge learned from mistakes or design discussions from one's time at another company is no issue. The intern seemed to have worked on a project very limited in scope to the overall product (package management). It is quite possible the bells and whistles that Replit's CEO is claiming that is copied are taken from design documents made by someone else - which is not at all learnings from working around a particular domain. In my opinion, this might actually be problematic. I don't think Radon was being malicious here, but you might also want to consider that Radon is a fresh graduate and might not have fully considered the implications of where it is acceptable for him to draw designs from.
- truetraveller 5y ago
  Exactly. The HN crowd, in general, is a funny one. Pretty sad, actually.
- Aeolun 5y ago
  I would have been willing to buy that if Amjad wasn’t clearly being a major ass here. He basically prejudiced me to take Radon’s side, regardless of the merits of the argument.
  - catgary 5y ago
    Yeah, I think Amjad would be fully justified in saying “Hey, I’m not comfortable with this. I don’t think keeping that website up is worth throwing away a strong reference from the CEO of a highly funded company - do you?”. A reference/relationship like that is worth a lot more than a project that is a little sketchy. No matter what happens, I think the intern has taken a net loss from this whole fiasco.
    - schaefer 5y ago
      There isn’t a lot of value in a “good reference” from someone with a bad character. On the other hand, What has Amjad lost today in terms of personal reputation? Can’t say I agree with your assessment of who’s finished the day with a net loss.
notsureaboutpg 5y ago
It's weird because design decisions certainly aren't copyrightable. Using X,Y,and Z tools in a project is absolutely not a copyrightable / IP-able concept. And yet, this is exactly the kind of stuff that can be very crucial to a business. The tools you use and how you use them can be very very valuable and if other people use your tools the way you use them they can replicate your value. It's both a threat and one you can't really defend against.

mmastrac 5y ago

What's interesting is that the redacted full thread alludes to some of these invisible aspects, and Radon appears to have a justification for doing things that way (though it's all blacked out so we cannot evaluate the merits of that argument). https://imgur.com/a/OaEOwu2 https://imgur.com/a/OaEOwu2 https://github.com/replit/upm https://github.com/replit/upm is likely one of the blacked-out bits in that email, as Radon says he wrote the README.

ZephyrBlu 5y ago
I find it telling that Radon wrote out an extensive explanation of why he believes his project is not based on replit, and Amjad basically responds with "you're wrong, you copied it" without addressing anything Radon said.
- Aeolun 5y ago
  To be fair, there’s only a few ways to say that the correct solution seems obvious in hindsight. I agree with Amjad there. I just don’t think that working with something means you can never use those patterns again. That’s ridiculous. If I couldn’t use any of the patterns that I learned about in previous jobs I would still be programming as if I had 1 year of university experience.
  - ZephyrBlu 5y ago
    Have you read Radon's redacted email that goes over the technical details? It doesn't look like post-hoc rationalization.
    - Aeolun 5y ago
      Yeah, I did, but not sure what you mean here?
      - ZephyrBlu 5y ago
        What I mean is that it doesn't seem like this is a "the correct solution seems obvious in hindsight" situation based on Radon's technical explanation of his project.
wolpoli 5y ago
"It is unethical and would be obviously so to outside observers as well. Feel free to consult with your mentors or people with more experience than you in the industry." Wow. Amjad basically invited Radon to post about this online.
- gip 5y ago
  And it comes across as very condescending imo. We are in a world where a brilliant intern may know or sense as well as any CEO, from YC or not. That what makes this world interesting.

tmotwu 5y ago

I am not sure I agree. The topic of intellectual property and trade secrets in software, or if IP laws should even apply, is probably another discussion entirely. However, there's no reason to trivialize it to cutthroat copy and pasted code. If Radon was a state actor, I am unsure HN would be responding the same way here. Obviously, knowledge learned from mistakes or design discussions from one's time at another company is no issue. The intern seemed to have worked on a project very limited in scope to the overall product (package management). It is quite possible the bells and whistles that Replit's CEO is claiming that is copied are taken from design documents made by someone else - which is not at all learnings from working around a particular domain. In my opinion, this might actually be problematic. I don't think Radon was being malicious here, but you might also want to consider that Radon is a fresh graduate and might not have fully considered the implications of where it is acceptable for him to draw designs from.

truetraveller 5y ago
Exactly. The HN crowd, in general, is a funny one. Pretty sad, actually.
Aeolun 5y ago
I would have been willing to buy that if Amjad wasn’t clearly being a major ass here. He basically prejudiced me to take Radon’s side, regardless of the merits of the argument.
- catgary 5y ago
  Yeah, I think Amjad would be fully justified in saying “Hey, I’m not comfortable with this. I don’t think keeping that website up is worth throwing away a strong reference from the CEO of a highly funded company - do you?”. A reference/relationship like that is worth a lot more than a project that is a little sketchy. No matter what happens, I think the intern has taken a net loss from this whole fiasco.
  - schaefer 5y ago
    There isn’t a lot of value in a “good reference” from someone with a bad character. On the other hand, What has Amjad lost today in terms of personal reputation? Can’t say I agree with your assessment of who’s finished the day with a net loss.

notsureaboutpg 5y ago

It's weird because design decisions certainly aren't copyrightable. Using X,Y,and Z tools in a project is absolutely not a copyrightable / IP-able concept. And yet, this is exactly the kind of stuff that can be very crucial to a business. The tools you use and how you use them can be very very valuable and if other people use your tools the way you use them they can replicate your value. It's both a threat and one you can't really defend against.