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> Nothing special going on with the function keys. Having them on the same positions as numbers makes them easy to learn, which is important for me as I almost

> Nothing special going on with the function keys. Having them on the same positions as numbers makes them easy to learn, which is important for me as I almost never use them. Unfortunately, most manufacturers of ergonomic keyboards seem to think along the same lines, so they omit the corresponding hardware keys and argue that you could always put the function keys on another layer if you really need them. I, however, use my function keys hundreds of times a day (mainly to switch workspaces) and I do not want to have press an extra key every single time. The key principle I follow with all my key bindings is this: The more often I use a certain functionality, the more accessible it needs to be, i.e. the less work (or, literally, input) it should require in order to avoid putting needless strain on my fingers and wrists. (I have suffered from RSI in the past.) In particular, oft-used commands[1] should be available through a single key (or a very short and accessible[0] key chord) if possible. Unfortunately, the most common set of key bindings (Vim/Emacs/IntelliJ/…) usually violate this principle. Long story short, this is the single reason why I haven't bought an ErgoDox/keyboardio/… so far. Also, I don't think it really matters whether personally one uses a key X or not. In my experience, you can never have enough keys! And you will find an application eventually – provided the key is in the right place ergonomically speaking, i.e. easy to reach. [0]: The more often I use a key chord, the stronger the fingers should be that push the individual keys – e.g. the thumb, index and middle finger. [1]: Commands, in turn, that are used only rarely should actually not be available through a key binding at all – no one remembers them and they only clutter the key binding space and cause confusion when you do (accidentally) hit those keys. Instead, those commands should be accessible through a searchable command palette. (Think Shift-Shift in IntelliJ.)

fouric 5y ago
> In particular, oft-used commands[1] should be available through a single key (or a very short and accessible[0] key chord) if possible. Wouldn't a real ergonomic keyboard (i.e. Dactyl-Manuform or Squeezebox) with thumb clusters fit this bill? Those put the modifier keys on your thumbs, so a two-key chord (layer mod + main key -> function key) should be relatively "short and accessible", at least by my standards.
- codethief 5y ago
  Unfortunately, it wouldn't, see my comment here -> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27433855 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27433855
hsbauauvhabzb 5y ago
If function keys switch workstations you’re either violating your own rule or don’t use workspaces enough.
neurotrace 5y ago
> Long story short, this is the single reason why I haven't bought an ErgoDox/keyboardio/… so far. I don't really understand this conclusion. The point of these programmable keyboards is you can make them as work-free as you need. If you hit your function keys all the time, you can make the number row produce a function key just by holding it for a little longer or do like what OP did and make number chords match a function key. Press 1+2 to get F1, 2+3 to get F2, etc. I understand not wanting to use a layer for everything which is why I don't care for ultra minimalist boards like the T-34 or Plank but an Ergodox has plenty of keys for my uses.
- tablespoon 5y ago
  >> Long story short, this is the single reason why I haven't bought an ErgoDox/keyboardio/… so far. > I don't really understand this conclusion. The point of these programmable keyboards is you can make them as work-free as you need. If you hit your function keys all the time, you can make the number row produce a function key just by holding it for a little longer or do like what OP did and make number chords match a function key. Press 1+2 to get F1, 2+3 to get F2, etc. All those solutions are pretty sub-optimal if you actually use your F-keys regularly. Making a number stand in for an F-key after being held for a moment actually seems like it would be the most annoying workaround of all.
- whoisburbansky 5y ago
  Alternatively, if GP really uses function keys that often, maybe it makes sense to just have the number keys default to function keys instead, and only output numbers on long press.
Jenk 5y ago
The entire purpose of these layouts is to reduce movement to keys you most use. If you really are using the F-keys hundreds of times a day then it very much is in your ergonomic interest to bring those keys closer to the home row to make accessing them easier than stretching out for them. In your specific case I'd probably map the layer modifier key on one hand, then map the F-keys like a numpad on the other so there is no same-hand chording. Though I strongly suspect you aren't using all 12 keys and instead are using say the first 5 or 6 only.
- fomine3 5y ago
  I use both depending on situation. There's no reason to avoid mapping a key combination function that already exist as a key. There's no strict reason to avoid adding key that can be done by key combination (but needs more vertical space, cost, and effort to build). I don't care vertical spaces much so I prefer to have dedicated function keys.
- Symbiote 5y ago
  Function keys are often used in combination with the mouse, and with other modifier keys. F3 is common for "Find Next", F5 for "Refresh". I don't want to use two hands for these. IntelliJ has defined shortcuts for F10, Shift+F10, Ctrl+F10 and Ctrl+Shift+F10. Adding another modifier to all these isn't great.
  - Jenk 5y ago
    Alternatively, you map the most common shortcuts you use to single keys on a new layer. But whatever, you do you :)
    - xupybd 5y ago
      How do you find memorizing these? I use an ergo dox as my daily but haven't got the hang of layers. Any advice to getting more out of them? I'm also not sure how to use more layers without dedicating more keys to switch between layers?
rgoulter 5y ago
It's a trade-off for hand-movement distance vs having to use modifiers. e.g. to type (), you hold Shift then type 89. That's probably easier than needing an extra row of keys for symbols, even if you use the symbols frequently.
- codethief 5y ago
  > It's a trade-off for hand-movement distance vs having to use modifiers. Yes, but in case of the function keys (which, as I said, I use to switch workspaces) I never press them while I'm writing text but rather before/after, so the distance my hands travel doesn't play much of a role. Also, one-handed usage of these keys along with a mouse (think drag and drop) is important to me, which is another reason against resorting to a key chord.
  - rgoulter 5y ago
    I mostly agree split keyboards aren't as good for one-handed usage where keys across the whole board are needed. Maybe for this usage something like the Kinesis Freestyle is more usable than a small keyboard like the Corne, but using the RHS will still suffer. I don't think that makes the keyboards bad; it's just they're better suited to usages where you can use both hands at once compared to one-handed usage. For "using function keys a lot", I don't think having the function keys behind a modifier is slower or inherently worse than having extra keys for it. - If you prefer to have the extra keys and don't mind moving your hand, that's fine. - But since many of these keyboards are designed with "minimize hand movement" in mind, it's coherent for the designs to omit the row of function keys (and even the row of number keys). There are a handful of designs which prioritize number of keys over reducing hand movement. e.g. BFO9000 https://keeb.io/products/bfo-9000-keyboard-customizable-full-size-split-ortholinear https://keeb.io/products/bfo-9000-keyboard-customizable-full...
Symbiote 5y ago
I made [1] to index ergonomic keyboards with sufficiently many/few keys (depending on preference). The issue seems fairly divisive, many people have strong preferences one way or the other. Setting it to a minimum of ~76-80 keys shows there really aren't many options. [1] https://aposymbiont.github.io/split-keyboards/ https://aposymbiont.github.io/split-keyboards/
- codethief 5y ago
  Very cool, thank you!
samatman 5y ago
I type @, #, and especially () more than I could ever hit a function key. Those are two-key characters. F2, F3, F9 and F10 are the same keys with a different modifier. It's really not a big deal. ErgoDox is great (even if I'm still miffed my first one died two months out of warranty).
chme 5y ago
> Also, I don't think it really matters whether personally one uses a key X or not. In my experience, you can never have enough keys! And you will find an application eventually – provided the key is in the right place ergonomically speaking, i.e. easy to reach. I do own a ErgoDox and UHK and like them. I use them with my custom layout. However I also agree with you fully, that you cannot have enough keys and I miss all the keys a standard layout offers. I think needing many keys, and changing a layout to not need to move your hands so much are two different problems. What is better, having to move your hand to difficult to reach keys, for functions that you only need occasionally, or having to remember how to navigate to the right, rarely used layer? I think the former. You can still change the layout to have the frequently used keys close to your finger, but if you don't need so many layers to allow the keyboard to work in all kinds of applications, that is a win for me. I don't really like the highly application specific layouts you get with keyboards, that are missing keys compared to the standard layout.
- codethief 5y ago
  Thank you for your comment! I couldn't agree with you more!
croh 5y ago
I would like to know if you do touch type. Touch typing plays huge role in keyboard experience imo. In my experience, linux has the most ergonomic shortcuts (combination of windows and mac - linux mint with cinnamon desktop) with little bit of customization. If you have a habit of not touching mouse much, honestly linux rocks. Mac has few consistent keyboard shortcuts but you can't operate system without mouse/touchpad. And for many keyboard shortcuts, you need to press awakwardly 3-4 keys simultaneously. Windows has some good shortcuts but it is not designed to use by keyboard soley. Focus seems more on mouse. Also I would highly recommend mechanical keyboards. You can configure good amount of shortcuts using control key and press it using your palm.

fouric 5y ago

> In particular, oft-used commands[1] should be available through a single key (or a very short and accessible[0] key chord) if possible. Wouldn't a real ergonomic keyboard (i.e. Dactyl-Manuform or Squeezebox) with thumb clusters fit this bill? Those put the modifier keys on your thumbs, so a two-key chord (layer mod + main key -> function key) should be relatively "short and accessible", at least by my standards.

codethief 5y ago
Unfortunately, it wouldn't, see my comment here -> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27433855 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27433855

hsbauauvhabzb 5y ago

If function keys switch workstations you’re either violating your own rule or don’t use workspaces enough.

neurotrace 5y ago

> Long story short, this is the single reason why I haven't bought an ErgoDox/keyboardio/… so far. I don't really understand this conclusion. The point of these programmable keyboards is you can make them as work-free as you need. If you hit your function keys all the time, you can make the number row produce a function key just by holding it for a little longer or do like what OP did and make number chords match a function key. Press 1+2 to get F1, 2+3 to get F2, etc. I understand not wanting to use a layer for everything which is why I don't care for ultra minimalist boards like the T-34 or Plank but an Ergodox has plenty of keys for my uses.

tablespoon 5y ago
>> Long story short, this is the single reason why I haven't bought an ErgoDox/keyboardio/… so far. > I don't really understand this conclusion. The point of these programmable keyboards is you can make them as work-free as you need. If you hit your function keys all the time, you can make the number row produce a function key just by holding it for a little longer or do like what OP did and make number chords match a function key. Press 1+2 to get F1, 2+3 to get F2, etc. All those solutions are pretty sub-optimal if you actually use your F-keys regularly. Making a number stand in for an F-key after being held for a moment actually seems like it would be the most annoying workaround of all.
whoisburbansky 5y ago
Alternatively, if GP really uses function keys that often, maybe it makes sense to just have the number keys default to function keys instead, and only output numbers on long press.

Jenk 5y ago

The entire purpose of these layouts is to reduce movement to keys you most use. If you really are using the F-keys hundreds of times a day then it very much is in your ergonomic interest to bring those keys closer to the home row to make accessing them easier than stretching out for them. In your specific case I'd probably map the layer modifier key on one hand, then map the F-keys like a numpad on the other so there is no same-hand chording. Though I strongly suspect you aren't using all 12 keys and instead are using say the first 5 or 6 only.

fomine3 5y ago
I use both depending on situation. There's no reason to avoid mapping a key combination function that already exist as a key. There's no strict reason to avoid adding key that can be done by key combination (but needs more vertical space, cost, and effort to build). I don't care vertical spaces much so I prefer to have dedicated function keys.
Symbiote 5y ago
Function keys are often used in combination with the mouse, and with other modifier keys. F3 is common for "Find Next", F5 for "Refresh". I don't want to use two hands for these. IntelliJ has defined shortcuts for F10, Shift+F10, Ctrl+F10 and Ctrl+Shift+F10. Adding another modifier to all these isn't great.
- Jenk 5y ago
  Alternatively, you map the most common shortcuts you use to single keys on a new layer. But whatever, you do you :)
  - xupybd 5y ago
    How do you find memorizing these? I use an ergo dox as my daily but haven't got the hang of layers. Any advice to getting more out of them? I'm also not sure how to use more layers without dedicating more keys to switch between layers?

rgoulter 5y ago

It's a trade-off for hand-movement distance vs having to use modifiers. e.g. to type (), you hold Shift then type 89. That's probably easier than needing an extra row of keys for symbols, even if you use the symbols frequently.

codethief 5y ago
> It's a trade-off for hand-movement distance vs having to use modifiers. Yes, but in case of the function keys (which, as I said, I use to switch workspaces) I never press them while I'm writing text but rather before/after, so the distance my hands travel doesn't play much of a role. Also, one-handed usage of these keys along with a mouse (think drag and drop) is important to me, which is another reason against resorting to a key chord.
- rgoulter 5y ago
  I mostly agree split keyboards aren't as good for one-handed usage where keys across the whole board are needed. Maybe for this usage something like the Kinesis Freestyle is more usable than a small keyboard like the Corne, but using the RHS will still suffer. I don't think that makes the keyboards bad; it's just they're better suited to usages where you can use both hands at once compared to one-handed usage. For "using function keys a lot", I don't think having the function keys behind a modifier is slower or inherently worse than having extra keys for it. - If you prefer to have the extra keys and don't mind moving your hand, that's fine. - But since many of these keyboards are designed with "minimize hand movement" in mind, it's coherent for the designs to omit the row of function keys (and even the row of number keys). There are a handful of designs which prioritize number of keys over reducing hand movement. e.g. BFO9000 https://keeb.io/products/bfo-9000-keyboard-customizable-full-size-split-ortholinear https://keeb.io/products/bfo-9000-keyboard-customizable-full...

Symbiote 5y ago

I made [1] to index ergonomic keyboards with sufficiently many/few keys (depending on preference). The issue seems fairly divisive, many people have strong preferences one way or the other. Setting it to a minimum of ~76-80 keys shows there really aren't many options. [1] https://aposymbiont.github.io/split-keyboards/ https://aposymbiont.github.io/split-keyboards/

codethief 5y ago
Very cool, thank you!

samatman 5y ago

I type @, #, and especially () more than I could ever hit a function key. Those are two-key characters. F2, F3, F9 and F10 are the same keys with a different modifier. It's really not a big deal. ErgoDox is great (even if I'm still miffed my first one died two months out of warranty).

chme 5y ago

> Also, I don't think it really matters whether personally one uses a key X or not. In my experience, you can never have enough keys! And you will find an application eventually – provided the key is in the right place ergonomically speaking, i.e. easy to reach. I do own a ErgoDox and UHK and like them. I use them with my custom layout. However I also agree with you fully, that you cannot have enough keys and I miss all the keys a standard layout offers. I think needing many keys, and changing a layout to not need to move your hands so much are two different problems. What is better, having to move your hand to difficult to reach keys, for functions that you only need occasionally, or having to remember how to navigate to the right, rarely used layer? I think the former. You can still change the layout to have the frequently used keys close to your finger, but if you don't need so many layers to allow the keyboard to work in all kinds of applications, that is a win for me. I don't really like the highly application specific layouts you get with keyboards, that are missing keys compared to the standard layout.

codethief 5y ago
Thank you for your comment! I couldn't agree with you more!

croh 5y ago

I would like to know if you do touch type. Touch typing plays huge role in keyboard experience imo. In my experience, linux has the most ergonomic shortcuts (combination of windows and mac - linux mint with cinnamon desktop) with little bit of customization. If you have a habit of not touching mouse much, honestly linux rocks. Mac has few consistent keyboard shortcuts but you can't operate system without mouse/touchpad. And for many keyboard shortcuts, you need to press awakwardly 3-4 keys simultaneously. Windows has some good shortcuts but it is not designed to use by keyboard soley. Focus seems more on mouse. Also I would highly recommend mechanical keyboards. You can configure good amount of shortcuts using control key and press it using your palm.