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I’ve recently started to use Autodesk’s Fusion 360. It’s an abomination! It’s so user hostile and constantly getting in the way of getting work done. Years ago

by knolan 5y ago

I’ve recently started to use Autodesk’s Fusion 360. It’s an abomination! It’s so user hostile and constantly getting in the way of getting work done. Years ago (2001 ish) when I first started to learn CAD I used PTC’s Pro/Desktop. It’s a simple package and not without its faults but when you consider the pace of technological development since then it’s appalling how much CAD has stepped backwards. Everything is clunky, cloud strangled, ribbon interface befuddled and runs like molasses.

halotrope 5y ago
User hostile describes the whole Autodesk suite really well. To bad that the CAD offerings like FreeCad are still a bit hard to use.
- dagw 5y ago
  It's not just that FreeCAD is "a bit hard to use" it's that it has maybe 3% of the features available in the AutoCAD suite of tools. Plus there is the massive collection of third party industry specific tools the build on top of AutoCAD.
  - craftinator 5y ago
    I disagree about the 3% of features. With plugins and the massive amount of extensibility possible in FreeCAD, I think it actually has most of the functionality of AutoCAD, let's say 80%, and a good number of features that AutoCAD is missing. However, discoverability of these features is abysmal (which is why most people think that they don't exist), and it can be VERY hard to use, depending on what you're trying to do. I definitely couldn't replace Solidworks or Fusion360 with FreeCAD in terms of speed of use, especially if I was sitting down with all 3 for the first time.
    - dagw 5y ago
      OK 3% is was probably harsh, but if you look across the whole AutoCAD suite at things like their MEP tools, AutoCAD Civil, AutoCAD Map 3D and so on you'll find whole domains of features that FreeCAD doesn't even begin to address.
      - craftinator 5y ago
        This is true. However, there are very few roles which use ALL of these tools. They are almost completely different applications that just share a base rendering window; they lie in completely separate domains. With that in mind, yes, FreeCAD doesn't have those features, but they exist in other open source applications. I think what you are really comparing at this point is FreeCAD, the application, to Autodesk, the brand.
        dagw 5y ago
        My point was to highlight really how big and sprawling the AutoCAD ecosystem really is and how meaningless a statement like FreeCAD can compete with AutoCAD is without specifying both context and domain. With that in mind, yes, FreeCAD doesn't have those features, but they exist in other open source applications. I really wish that was true. It would make my life much better. I think what you are really comparing at this point is FreeCAD, the application, to Autodesk, the brand. I'm intentionally not. Because if I where I would also be talking about Navis, Infraworks, Revit, 3DS and so on. And just to be clear I greatly dislike AutoCAD and if I never had to use it again it would no doubt improve my quality of life.
    - marcodiego 5y ago
      > I think it actually has most of the functionality of AutoCAD, let's say 80%, and a good number The problem is that everybody uses a different 80%.
      - craftinator 5y ago
        Haha yes, I think this is the problem; it's part of the tradeoff between open and closed source, IMO.
        marcodiego 5y ago
        For some cases. Linux and GCC, for example are often more feature-rich than their proprietary counterparts.
      - Dylan16807 5y ago
        That's why you shouldn't cut off the rest of the sentence! "a good number of features that AutoCAD is missing" Everyone needs a different bunch of features, and for some of them that would exclude AutoCAD.
- specialist 5y ago
  Because none of the developers had ever been users, had any experience drafting. AutoCAD was basically a UI for a pen plotter. One notable exception was Duff Kurland. He liked hanging out with us users and would chat us up. He'd get our bugs fixed. We loved him. Generic CADD was pretty good, much loved. So Autodesk had to kill it, natch. Only Bentley's MicroStation was more user hostile. Later, an intern at Bentley created an amazing auto snapping & aligning input tool. Especially for isometric drawings. I don't know came of it. User interface researchers like Suresh Bhanavi did some really good work. He was hired by Army Corp of Engineers to determine why CAD work had poor quality and ROI (often negative), compared to just using drafting boards. He tried to advocate his findings. The CAD vendors weren't interested. I doubt Autodesk or Bentley ever addressed their distain for users. Gods, writing this now, I'm angrily remembering helping coworkers fix their SolidWorks and 3DS Max problems. A few startups were more user and domain focused. ArchiCADD and Rhino come to mind. Source: Was a CAD jockey in the 80s/90s. My "chaotic mutant user interface" critique (allegedly) got wide circulation within Autodesk. Briefly served on Bentley's steering committee; waste of time. PS: Just looked at Autodesk's current product list. Wow. They're the Computer Associates / SoftBank of design software.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- FpUser 5y ago
  Solidworks is very easy to use but of course one has to have enough dosh as it is expensive
swalsh 5y ago
I actually love Fusion 360. My prior experience was autocad about 20 years ago when I was in high school, and more recently, Sketchup. The cloud stuff though is crazy annoying. But I also don't pay anything for the tool, so :\ That said, there is a makers version of SolidWorks coming to the market this year.
- patja 5y ago
  I have the free personal hobbyist license and also love it. Learning how to use it to make my own custom models was one of my most gratifying pandemic personal growth projects. Very empowering.
DanTheManPR 5y ago
The advancement of CAD software over the last 20 years has been one step forward, one step back. There are lots of small, genuinely helpful everyday improvements (try doing modeled threads in Solidworks 2001 vs 2021), but they've also packaged in a lot of obnoxious "functionality" that is constantly nosing it's way into your workflow. The 3D modeling suites are IMO overall more usable, but the 2D stuff was arguably more usable before the ribbon craze. Autodesk's present scheme seems to be to make as much of their software cloud-connected, with the purpose of entrapping all your company's vital IP within.
fartcannon 5y ago
FreeCAD exists and is quite useful for 3D parts.
- turbinerneiter 5y ago
  Last I looked assemblies were still not there yet. But it will eventually be good enough. For some things it already is. KiCAD gave me hope. It is possible to have professional grade open source CAD software.
- DanTheManPR 5y ago
  Definitely quite usable for modeling parts and basic assemblies. I use it almost exclusively now when working on community hobby projects, so as to make sure everyone has access to the development tools to make their own modifications. But it's definitely behind the curve in terms of how friendly and discoverable the user interface is. It's a powerful modeler, but I'm not sure that it's in a good state to be used by a large engineering team on multiple large projects. In particular, a lot of the PDM options for FreeCAD seem sort of questionable; for better or worse, a lot of organizations are going to need it to interface with their current data management software. I haven't seen the effort to do that yet.
craftinator 5y ago
I wouldn't call it an abomination. Bloated, yes, full of little quirks, true, but I can sit down, design a CAD model with multiple components, simulate it's motion and stress points, fix any interferences, lay out the parts in a technical drawing, 3d print half of it, and CNC mill the rest, all in the space of 2 hours. In fact I just did that this morning, from 5 AM starting a design, to 7 AM, now, when I just finished pulling parts out of the mill. It's ridiculously powerful, and the cost is about 1 cup of coffee per day. I'm running it on an $800 laptop that's a year old, and it's snappy. My biggest complaint is lack of Linux support, which is abominable since Linux is the most widely used OS on the planet, but what can you do?
- abakker 5y ago
  Yeah, I agree. Sometimes weird, but the fact remains that with a bit of thought I can design a piece of furniture, and then with parametric measurement make small tweaks at the end so I can easily work off the materials that I have. E.g I can design a part to be .75” thick, but if the finished planed mahogany I have is .747c I just update the piece and my joints still work! The CAM works, the simulations work, the assemblies work. It’s Cheap for what it is. I don’t even touch the sculpt, electronics, or sheet metal workspaces and those are included! My personal bugbear is that the rotary 4th axis cam is so expensive.
- eldaisfish 5y ago
  >My biggest complaint is lack of Linux support, which is abominable since Linux is the most widely used OS on the planet, but what can you do? Linux is not the most widely used desktop OS - that is windows by a long shot and that is the segment that matters here. Why would a software maker invest the time and effort in catering to a negligible slice of the desktop OS market?
  - pyb 5y ago
    OP meant that ironically...
  - marcodiego 5y ago
    UNIX once dominated CAD/CAM/CAE and was never a strong name on the desktop. Robustness, security and stability are valuable features for such market. Ignoring linux today for technical tools shows a lack of vision or unportable low quality legacy code.
crispyambulance 5y ago
Fusion 360, IMHO, is a slick and capable CAD tool. It absolutely does require a muscular machine but once you get used it and the space mouse, it's very intuitive and pleasing. There's a learning curve, of course, for any CAD system. It takes WEEKS of regular usage to get reasonably fluent and even then you'll get snagged with a "how do I?" problem regularly. The hardest part is unlearning bad habits. There's easy ways and hard ways to do things. Sometimes the hard way is initially more intuitive, but ends up costing effort and time. It's helpful, I think, to watch pros use it and see what they do. That's another good feature. It has a decent user community and there's lots of help available.
esens 5y ago
I enjoy Fusion 360 actually. I think it isn't that bad.
starky 5y ago
I think a lot of people used to find Pro/E to be extremely user hostile and difficult to work with. One you got used to it you could be efficient, but it is not known to be user friendly software. Plus they have gone the ribbon route just like all the other CAD software. I've tried Fusion 360, and I agree, it is just such a pain compared to SolidWorks which I use for work. I already have a paradigm for design in my head due to how long I've used CAD and Fusion 360 doesn't match that. I'm somewhat surprised that Solid Edge isn't more popular in the maker space, it is similarly free for hobbyists and is legitimately CAD software that professionals use.
bsder 5y ago
> It’s a simple package and not without its faults but when you consider the pace of technological development since then it’s appalling how much CAD has stepped backwards. CAD is bad because there are too few users. Work backward from the Altium statements. Altium has about $200 million in revenue. Altium website claims licenses are about $2K-ish. That's a maximum of about 100K paying users (reality is likely closer to 25K). If you have 1,000 features, you have 100 users per feature. In reality, those features follow a power law. Everybody uses the same basic features, but if you use a slightly off-path feature, you may be the only user. Open source is the only path forward in this space because code can accumulate over time and users can consolidate over time. The problem is that CAD coders are even rarer than CAD users, and they can get get paid quite a lot in their day job--why should they do this for free?
- hulitu 5y ago
  > CAD is bad because there are too few users. CAD is bad because it is made by SW developers who implement requirements and have no idea how the SW is used. I do not need all the toolbars at once. If the buttons are too small they are difficult to press, if they are too big they eat valuable space. > If you have 1,000 features, you have 100 users per feature. :) Most of the features are used sporadically. > In reality, those features follow a power law. Everybody uses the same basic features, but if you use a slightly off-path feature, you may be the only user. No. There is a workflow. During this workflow you may, or may not need special features depending of the object being designed. > Open source is the only path forward in this space because code can accumulate over time and users can consolidate over time. There are some very good open source tools (like Magic layout system) but they are good because the developers also use those tools. > The problem is that CAD coders are even rarer than CAD users, and they can get get paid quite a lot in their day job--why should they do this for free? AFAIK there are no "CAD coders". There are SW developers who got the job to write the code. Finding people qualified in multiple domains is hard.
  - bsder 5y ago
    > There are some very good open source tools (like Magic layout system) but they are good because the developers also use those tools. Sorry, the Magic layout system is NOT a good tool. It has a lousy DRC/extraction system based on corner stitching which requires that everything be lambda-based rectangles. Ever seen a professional VLSI layout person use rectangles?--they almost never do. There's a good reason why they use paths. Good layout systems also link the schematic and layout in real-time. A lot of PCB systems even do this now. I can go on and on and on about Magic. None of it is good.
emh68 5y ago
I switched from Altium (CircuitStudio) to Fusion 360 and never looked back. Actually Altium has a very intuitive UI/UX, but the bugs were starting to annoy me. First it was custom component revisions becoming uneditable ( https://circuitmaker.com/forum/#posts/246594 https://circuitmaker.com/forum/#posts/246594 ) which has been an ongoing issue for over 2 years. Then the auto-routing feature (a sad necessity for retrocomputing enthusiasts who need to route dozens of signals at once) started generating really obvious short-circuits. Rarely if ever do Altium staff descend on the forum and chime in.
canada_dry 5y ago
Just want to throw in that Fusion 360's baby brother Tinkercad is fantastic. It's an incredibly intuitive and well designed 3D CAD design tool for beginner to intermediate complexity 3D printer projects. For more complex design I'll use blender or onshape. I've tried Fusion and just find it too convoluted!

by knolan 5y ago

halotrope 5y ago

User hostile describes the whole Autodesk suite really well. To bad that the CAD offerings like FreeCad are still a bit hard to use.

dagw 5y ago
It's not just that FreeCAD is "a bit hard to use" it's that it has maybe 3% of the features available in the AutoCAD suite of tools. Plus there is the massive collection of third party industry specific tools the build on top of AutoCAD.
- craftinator 5y ago
  I disagree about the 3% of features. With plugins and the massive amount of extensibility possible in FreeCAD, I think it actually has most of the functionality of AutoCAD, let's say 80%, and a good number of features that AutoCAD is missing. However, discoverability of these features is abysmal (which is why most people think that they don't exist), and it can be VERY hard to use, depending on what you're trying to do. I definitely couldn't replace Solidworks or Fusion360 with FreeCAD in terms of speed of use, especially if I was sitting down with all 3 for the first time.
  - dagw 5y ago
    OK 3% is was probably harsh, but if you look across the whole AutoCAD suite at things like their MEP tools, AutoCAD Civil, AutoCAD Map 3D and so on you'll find whole domains of features that FreeCAD doesn't even begin to address.
    - craftinator 5y ago
      This is true. However, there are very few roles which use ALL of these tools. They are almost completely different applications that just share a base rendering window; they lie in completely separate domains. With that in mind, yes, FreeCAD doesn't have those features, but they exist in other open source applications. I think what you are really comparing at this point is FreeCAD, the application, to Autodesk, the brand.
      - dagw 5y ago
        My point was to highlight really how big and sprawling the AutoCAD ecosystem really is and how meaningless a statement like FreeCAD can compete with AutoCAD is without specifying both context and domain. With that in mind, yes, FreeCAD doesn't have those features, but they exist in other open source applications. I really wish that was true. It would make my life much better. I think what you are really comparing at this point is FreeCAD, the application, to Autodesk, the brand. I'm intentionally not. Because if I where I would also be talking about Navis, Infraworks, Revit, 3DS and so on. And just to be clear I greatly dislike AutoCAD and if I never had to use it again it would no doubt improve my quality of life.
  - marcodiego 5y ago
    > I think it actually has most of the functionality of AutoCAD, let's say 80%, and a good number The problem is that everybody uses a different 80%.
    - craftinator 5y ago
      Haha yes, I think this is the problem; it's part of the tradeoff between open and closed source, IMO.
      - marcodiego 5y ago
        For some cases. Linux and GCC, for example are often more feature-rich than their proprietary counterparts.
    - Dylan16807 5y ago
      That's why you shouldn't cut off the rest of the sentence! "a good number of features that AutoCAD is missing" Everyone needs a different bunch of features, and for some of them that would exclude AutoCAD.
specialist 5y ago
Because none of the developers had ever been users, had any experience drafting. AutoCAD was basically a UI for a pen plotter. One notable exception was Duff Kurland. He liked hanging out with us users and would chat us up. He'd get our bugs fixed. We loved him. Generic CADD was pretty good, much loved. So Autodesk had to kill it, natch. Only Bentley's MicroStation was more user hostile. Later, an intern at Bentley created an amazing auto snapping & aligning input tool. Especially for isometric drawings. I don't know came of it. User interface researchers like Suresh Bhanavi did some really good work. He was hired by Army Corp of Engineers to determine why CAD work had poor quality and ROI (often negative), compared to just using drafting boards. He tried to advocate his findings. The CAD vendors weren't interested. I doubt Autodesk or Bentley ever addressed their distain for users. Gods, writing this now, I'm angrily remembering helping coworkers fix their SolidWorks and 3DS Max problems. A few startups were more user and domain focused. ArchiCADD and Rhino come to mind. Source: Was a CAD jockey in the 80s/90s. My "chaotic mutant user interface" critique (allegedly) got wide circulation within Autodesk. Briefly served on Bentley's steering committee; waste of time. PS: Just looked at Autodesk's current product list. Wow. They're the Computer Associates / SoftBank of design software.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
FpUser 5y ago
Solidworks is very easy to use but of course one has to have enough dosh as it is expensive

swalsh 5y ago

I actually love Fusion 360. My prior experience was autocad about 20 years ago when I was in high school, and more recently, Sketchup. The cloud stuff though is crazy annoying. But I also don't pay anything for the tool, so :\ That said, there is a makers version of SolidWorks coming to the market this year.

patja 5y ago
I have the free personal hobbyist license and also love it. Learning how to use it to make my own custom models was one of my most gratifying pandemic personal growth projects. Very empowering.

DanTheManPR 5y ago

The advancement of CAD software over the last 20 years has been one step forward, one step back. There are lots of small, genuinely helpful everyday improvements (try doing modeled threads in Solidworks 2001 vs 2021), but they've also packaged in a lot of obnoxious "functionality" that is constantly nosing it's way into your workflow. The 3D modeling suites are IMO overall more usable, but the 2D stuff was arguably more usable before the ribbon craze. Autodesk's present scheme seems to be to make as much of their software cloud-connected, with the purpose of entrapping all your company's vital IP within.

fartcannon 5y ago

FreeCAD exists and is quite useful for 3D parts.

turbinerneiter 5y ago
Last I looked assemblies were still not there yet. But it will eventually be good enough. For some things it already is. KiCAD gave me hope. It is possible to have professional grade open source CAD software.
DanTheManPR 5y ago
Definitely quite usable for modeling parts and basic assemblies. I use it almost exclusively now when working on community hobby projects, so as to make sure everyone has access to the development tools to make their own modifications. But it's definitely behind the curve in terms of how friendly and discoverable the user interface is. It's a powerful modeler, but I'm not sure that it's in a good state to be used by a large engineering team on multiple large projects. In particular, a lot of the PDM options for FreeCAD seem sort of questionable; for better or worse, a lot of organizations are going to need it to interface with their current data management software. I haven't seen the effort to do that yet.

craftinator 5y ago

I wouldn't call it an abomination. Bloated, yes, full of little quirks, true, but I can sit down, design a CAD model with multiple components, simulate it's motion and stress points, fix any interferences, lay out the parts in a technical drawing, 3d print half of it, and CNC mill the rest, all in the space of 2 hours. In fact I just did that this morning, from 5 AM starting a design, to 7 AM, now, when I just finished pulling parts out of the mill. It's ridiculously powerful, and the cost is about 1 cup of coffee per day. I'm running it on an $800 laptop that's a year old, and it's snappy. My biggest complaint is lack of Linux support, which is abominable since Linux is the most widely used OS on the planet, but what can you do?

abakker 5y ago
Yeah, I agree. Sometimes weird, but the fact remains that with a bit of thought I can design a piece of furniture, and then with parametric measurement make small tweaks at the end so I can easily work off the materials that I have. E.g I can design a part to be .75” thick, but if the finished planed mahogany I have is .747c I just update the piece and my joints still work! The CAM works, the simulations work, the assemblies work. It’s Cheap for what it is. I don’t even touch the sculpt, electronics, or sheet metal workspaces and those are included! My personal bugbear is that the rotary 4th axis cam is so expensive.
eldaisfish 5y ago
>My biggest complaint is lack of Linux support, which is abominable since Linux is the most widely used OS on the planet, but what can you do? Linux is not the most widely used desktop OS - that is windows by a long shot and that is the segment that matters here. Why would a software maker invest the time and effort in catering to a negligible slice of the desktop OS market?
- pyb 5y ago
  OP meant that ironically...
- marcodiego 5y ago
  UNIX once dominated CAD/CAM/CAE and was never a strong name on the desktop. Robustness, security and stability are valuable features for such market. Ignoring linux today for technical tools shows a lack of vision or unportable low quality legacy code.

crispyambulance 5y ago

Fusion 360, IMHO, is a slick and capable CAD tool. It absolutely does require a muscular machine but once you get used it and the space mouse, it's very intuitive and pleasing. There's a learning curve, of course, for any CAD system. It takes WEEKS of regular usage to get reasonably fluent and even then you'll get snagged with a "how do I?" problem regularly. The hardest part is unlearning bad habits. There's easy ways and hard ways to do things. Sometimes the hard way is initially more intuitive, but ends up costing effort and time. It's helpful, I think, to watch pros use it and see what they do. That's another good feature. It has a decent user community and there's lots of help available.

esens 5y ago

I enjoy Fusion 360 actually. I think it isn't that bad.

starky 5y ago

I think a lot of people used to find Pro/E to be extremely user hostile and difficult to work with. One you got used to it you could be efficient, but it is not known to be user friendly software. Plus they have gone the ribbon route just like all the other CAD software. I've tried Fusion 360, and I agree, it is just such a pain compared to SolidWorks which I use for work. I already have a paradigm for design in my head due to how long I've used CAD and Fusion 360 doesn't match that. I'm somewhat surprised that Solid Edge isn't more popular in the maker space, it is similarly free for hobbyists and is legitimately CAD software that professionals use.

bsder 5y ago

> It’s a simple package and not without its faults but when you consider the pace of technological development since then it’s appalling how much CAD has stepped backwards. CAD is bad because there are too few users. Work backward from the Altium statements. Altium has about $200 million in revenue. Altium website claims licenses are about $2K-ish. That's a maximum of about 100K paying users (reality is likely closer to 25K). If you have 1,000 features, you have 100 users per feature. In reality, those features follow a power law. Everybody uses the same basic features, but if you use a slightly off-path feature, you may be the only user. Open source is the only path forward in this space because code can accumulate over time and users can consolidate over time. The problem is that CAD coders are even rarer than CAD users, and they can get get paid quite a lot in their day job--why should they do this for free?

hulitu 5y ago
> CAD is bad because there are too few users. CAD is bad because it is made by SW developers who implement requirements and have no idea how the SW is used. I do not need all the toolbars at once. If the buttons are too small they are difficult to press, if they are too big they eat valuable space. > If you have 1,000 features, you have 100 users per feature. :) Most of the features are used sporadically. > In reality, those features follow a power law. Everybody uses the same basic features, but if you use a slightly off-path feature, you may be the only user. No. There is a workflow. During this workflow you may, or may not need special features depending of the object being designed. > Open source is the only path forward in this space because code can accumulate over time and users can consolidate over time. There are some very good open source tools (like Magic layout system) but they are good because the developers also use those tools. > The problem is that CAD coders are even rarer than CAD users, and they can get get paid quite a lot in their day job--why should they do this for free? AFAIK there are no "CAD coders". There are SW developers who got the job to write the code. Finding people qualified in multiple domains is hard.
- bsder 5y ago
  > There are some very good open source tools (like Magic layout system) but they are good because the developers also use those tools. Sorry, the Magic layout system is NOT a good tool. It has a lousy DRC/extraction system based on corner stitching which requires that everything be lambda-based rectangles. Ever seen a professional VLSI layout person use rectangles?--they almost never do. There's a good reason why they use paths. Good layout systems also link the schematic and layout in real-time. A lot of PCB systems even do this now. I can go on and on and on about Magic. None of it is good.

emh68 5y ago

I switched from Altium (CircuitStudio) to Fusion 360 and never looked back. Actually Altium has a very intuitive UI/UX, but the bugs were starting to annoy me. First it was custom component revisions becoming uneditable ( https://circuitmaker.com/forum/#posts/246594 https://circuitmaker.com/forum/#posts/246594 ) which has been an ongoing issue for over 2 years. Then the auto-routing feature (a sad necessity for retrocomputing enthusiasts who need to route dozens of signals at once) started generating really obvious short-circuits. Rarely if ever do Altium staff descend on the forum and chime in.

canada_dry 5y ago

Just want to throw in that Fusion 360's baby brother Tinkercad is fantastic. It's an incredibly intuitive and well designed 3D CAD design tool for beginner to intermediate complexity 3D printer projects. For more complex design I'll use blender or onshape. I've tried Fusion and just find it too convoluted!