4 ms·

But "we" don't all have a choice to just "decide" to stop working full time. That's the point.

by ilaksh 5y ago

jurassic 5y ago
You have a choice to do something other than what you're doing right now. Having clear goals for where you want to end up that guide your choices, you can eventually stop working a job you hate and do something you find more fulfilling to generate the money you need. So the choice is do you want to work toward a goal like that or instead just soothe your dissatisfaction by complaining about how rich people have more than you and life's not fair. That's basically what the author is doing.
- shlant 5y ago
  man these talking points of "everyone can just make different choices and eventually be successful" along with "anyone critiquing excess is just jealous/whining" are getting really old. Stop oversimplifying everyones lives and complex societal issues down to "personal responsibility" and hand-waving away valid criticisms. Inequality exists, it's not easy to get out of poverty, and unsustainable lifestyles have consequences.
- jeffe 5y ago
  Do you know down to the penny, how much credit you have remaining on your credit cards? Have you ever lived in a state of fear, wondering which thing you've been putting off – the toothache, the weird noises coming from your car, the surprise bill, will bring you over the brink into homelessness? Do you think anyone in this position can simply get out by choice? How many people do you think live in conditions like this?
  - jurassic 5y ago
    > Have you ever lived in a state of fear, wondering which thing you've been putting off – the toothache, the weird noises coming from your car, the surprise bill, will bring you over the brink into homelessness? Assumptions are funny things. It might surprise you, but I actually HAVE been in more or less this situation. For me, it was in the years of the Great Recession. I graduated in 2010 and nobody would hire me, not even for service jobs like Starbucks/Walmart/etc. My parents had no ability to help me, and moving back in with them in the podunk town where I grew up would've been an economic dead end. At my lowest all I had was a $300 netbook computer to my name with maxed credit cards and an empty bank account; net worth -$60k due to student loans and credit card debt I acquired trying to make ends meet during my extended unemployment. During this period I would've been on the streets except I was able to rotate among friends who generously let me sleep on the sofa for free. I stole about 80% of my food from a nearby university by pretending to be a student on the dining plan and spent my days applying for jobs from the library while starting to learn how to code Python. What little income I had during this period came from ghost-writing papers for rich college kids--$10 per page!--and one-off tutoring gigs I arranged through Craigslist. I tried making logos for people on 99designs using a pirated version of Adobe Illustrator but never won any design contests and gave up after a couple weeks of trying to focus on the writing and coding which seemed more promising. When I managed to get my first paid tech job in 2014, I spent my first $20k on dental work I'd deferred to the point I needed a bunch of root canals and crowns. Only after my teeth were fixed did I understand how much of my mental bandwidth had been occupied by thinking: How are my teeth feeling today? It was difficult being poor and I considered killing myself at times because I felt like such a failure. But I'm glad I saw these as problems for myself to solve because if I was waiting for a government program or social revolution to make things fair, I'd still be waiting. Or homeless. Or dead. > Do you think anyone in this position can simply get out by choice? How many people do you think live in conditions like this? No, I don't think ANYONE can. And I don't think it's simple. But I think many people can. I wouldn't advise waiting on somebody else to fix your problems if you're able to attempt self-rescue. I'm tired of people who have never been poor infantilizing those who are by pretending they have no agency in life.
    - jeffe 5y ago
      Thanks for sharing, props to you for getting out of your situation. I fully respect doing what has to be done to get by, but I think its still worth pointing out that achieving what you had done would have been considerably more difficult if you had stuck to the straight and narrow like society would have wanted - to the larger point that there are systemic issues that in fact do inhibit the agency of people. "The law, in its majestic equality, forbids all men to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets and to steal bread-the rich as well as the poor."
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
drunkenman 5y ago
Everyone has a choice to stop working. Suicide is always an option. Therefore your statement is factually incorrect.
commandlinefan 5y ago
Sure we do - almost all of us are saving for retirement at some point. It's up to you to decide how much you want to set aside so that you can potentially retire early if you're willing to sacrifice now.
- shlant 5y ago
  maybe if by "we" you just mean "commenters of HN". 45% of Americans[1] and over 1/3 of Canadians [2] have no savings. 1. https://www.statista.com/chart/20323/americans-lack-savings/#:~:text=Dec%2018%2C%202019-,Personal%20savings%20in%20the%20U.S.,45%20percent%20have%20nothing%20saved https://www.statista.com/chart/20323/americans-lack-savings/.... 2. https://financialpost.com/personal-finance/more-than-a-third-of-canadians-have-no-retirement-savings-half-live-paycheque-to-paycheque-poll-finds https://financialpost.com/personal-finance/more-than-a-third...
  - ac29 5y ago
    Article 1 is misleading at best. I have less than $1000 in my savings account, but only because the interest rate is terrible. It doesnt mean I have less than $1000 saved. The article's conclusions conflate the two things.
    - shlant 5y ago
      It's not "misleading", it's just one way of measuring it. Feel free to take a look at these metrics if that specific one is unsatisfactory: 1. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/14/heres-how-many-americans-are-not-saving-any-money-for-emergencies-or-retirement-at-all.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/14/heres-how-many-americans-are... 2. https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2019/06/03/report-a-quarter-of-americans-have-no-retirement-savings-infographic/?sh=21c18dca3ebf https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2019/06/03/report... I just don't see how someone could possibly make the argument that everyone has the means to stop working and pursue something else. It points to being out of touch with the reality of not only Americans and Canadians but globally.

But "we" don't all have a choice to just "decide" to stop working full time. That's the point.

by ilaksh 5y ago

But "we" don't all have a choice to just "decide" to stop working full time. That's the point.

You have a choice to do something other than what you're doing right now. Having clear goals for where you want to end up that guide your choices, you can eventually stop working a job you hate and do something you find more fulfilling to generate the money you need. So the choice is do you want to work toward a goal like that or instead just soothe your dissatisfaction by complaining about how rich people have more than you and life's not fair. That's basically what the author is doing.

shlant 5y ago
man these talking points of "everyone can just make different choices and eventually be successful" along with "anyone critiquing excess is just jealous/whining" are getting really old. Stop oversimplifying everyones lives and complex societal issues down to "personal responsibility" and hand-waving away valid criticisms. Inequality exists, it's not easy to get out of poverty, and unsustainable lifestyles have consequences.
jeffe 5y ago
Do you know down to the penny, how much credit you have remaining on your credit cards? Have you ever lived in a state of fear, wondering which thing you've been putting off – the toothache, the weird noises coming from your car, the surprise bill, will bring you over the brink into homelessness? Do you think anyone in this position can simply get out by choice? How many people do you think live in conditions like this?
- jurassic 5y ago
  > Have you ever lived in a state of fear, wondering which thing you've been putting off – the toothache, the weird noises coming from your car, the surprise bill, will bring you over the brink into homelessness? Assumptions are funny things. It might surprise you, but I actually HAVE been in more or less this situation. For me, it was in the years of the Great Recession. I graduated in 2010 and nobody would hire me, not even for service jobs like Starbucks/Walmart/etc. My parents had no ability to help me, and moving back in with them in the podunk town where I grew up would've been an economic dead end. At my lowest all I had was a $300 netbook computer to my name with maxed credit cards and an empty bank account; net worth -$60k due to student loans and credit card debt I acquired trying to make ends meet during my extended unemployment. During this period I would've been on the streets except I was able to rotate among friends who generously let me sleep on the sofa for free. I stole about 80% of my food from a nearby university by pretending to be a student on the dining plan and spent my days applying for jobs from the library while starting to learn how to code Python. What little income I had during this period came from ghost-writing papers for rich college kids--$10 per page!--and one-off tutoring gigs I arranged through Craigslist. I tried making logos for people on 99designs using a pirated version of Adobe Illustrator but never won any design contests and gave up after a couple weeks of trying to focus on the writing and coding which seemed more promising. When I managed to get my first paid tech job in 2014, I spent my first $20k on dental work I'd deferred to the point I needed a bunch of root canals and crowns. Only after my teeth were fixed did I understand how much of my mental bandwidth had been occupied by thinking: How are my teeth feeling today? It was difficult being poor and I considered killing myself at times because I felt like such a failure. But I'm glad I saw these as problems for myself to solve because if I was waiting for a government program or social revolution to make things fair, I'd still be waiting. Or homeless. Or dead. > Do you think anyone in this position can simply get out by choice? How many people do you think live in conditions like this? No, I don't think ANYONE can. And I don't think it's simple. But I think many people can. I wouldn't advise waiting on somebody else to fix your problems if you're able to attempt self-rescue. I'm tired of people who have never been poor infantilizing those who are by pretending they have no agency in life.
  - jeffe 5y ago
    Thanks for sharing, props to you for getting out of your situation. I fully respect doing what has to be done to get by, but I think its still worth pointing out that achieving what you had done would have been considerably more difficult if you had stuck to the straight and narrow like society would have wanted - to the larger point that there are systemic issues that in fact do inhibit the agency of people. "The law, in its majestic equality, forbids all men to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets and to steal bread-the rich as well as the poor."

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

drunkenman 5y ago

Everyone has a choice to stop working. Suicide is always an option. Therefore your statement is factually incorrect.

commandlinefan 5y ago

Sure we do - almost all of us are saving for retirement at some point. It's up to you to decide how much you want to set aside so that you can potentially retire early if you're willing to sacrifice now.

shlant 5y ago
maybe if by "we" you just mean "commenters of HN". 45% of Americans[1] and over 1/3 of Canadians [2] have no savings. 1. https://www.statista.com/chart/20323/americans-lack-savings/#:~:text=Dec%2018%2C%202019-,Personal%20savings%20in%20the%20U.S.,45%20percent%20have%20nothing%20saved https://www.statista.com/chart/20323/americans-lack-savings/.... 2. https://financialpost.com/personal-finance/more-than-a-third-of-canadians-have-no-retirement-savings-half-live-paycheque-to-paycheque-poll-finds https://financialpost.com/personal-finance/more-than-a-third...
- ac29 5y ago
  Article 1 is misleading at best. I have less than $1000 in my savings account, but only because the interest rate is terrible. It doesnt mean I have less than $1000 saved. The article's conclusions conflate the two things.
  - shlant 5y ago
    It's not "misleading", it's just one way of measuring it. Feel free to take a look at these metrics if that specific one is unsatisfactory: 1. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/14/heres-how-many-americans-are-not-saving-any-money-for-emergencies-or-retirement-at-all.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/14/heres-how-many-americans-are... 2. https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2019/06/03/report-a-quarter-of-americans-have-no-retirement-savings-infographic/?sh=21c18dca3ebf https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2019/06/03/report... I just don't see how someone could possibly make the argument that everyone has the means to stop working and pursue something else. It points to being out of touch with the reality of not only Americans and Canadians but globally.