8 ms·

The author has crab in a bucket mindset. One person having enough success to have the lifestyle they want does not mean somebody they employ is being victimized

The author has crab in a bucket mindset. One person having enough success to have the lifestyle they want does not mean somebody they employ is being victimized by them. This might resonate with some, but for me it is a big turn-off. It smacks of jealousy and a rejection of all personal responsibility in charting a path to where you want to go in life. Tim's book isn't without flaws (and is now significantly dated in many of the details), but one of the core messages is to recognize we all have a choice to do something other than work 50 years at a job we hate and then retire/die. Tons of people go through life without considering any alternatives to the path they are on, or developing the self-knowledge about what they actually want, which is a big reason so many people end up so unhappy. He also emphasizes creating repeatable systems that you can then automate with software or hand off to other people. This helps you scale your business and income, but more importantly it preserves your time for other things you value more. The blog author thinks this is somehow a bad thing, but if nobody ever realized the efficiencies of exchanging money for services then most of us would be naked and starving; a huge chain of such exchanges is needed to produce the modern miracles of cheap clothing and food that are the foundation of modern living. Tim didn't actually retire to the beach for a hedonic 4-hour lifestyle with servants refilling the wine glass and fanning him with palm fronds; the guy works harder than most people with a new huge book every couple of years, lots of active investing, and running a major podcast almost every week. The difference between him and other people is that he's not wasting time on stuff that other people could do for him. I'm not a "bro", but I guess I'll stand here and defend Tim's book because it gave me a lot to think about.

ilaksh 5y ago
But "we" don't all have a choice to just "decide" to stop working full time. That's the point.
- jurassic 5y ago
  You have a choice to do something other than what you're doing right now. Having clear goals for where you want to end up that guide your choices, you can eventually stop working a job you hate and do something you find more fulfilling to generate the money you need. So the choice is do you want to work toward a goal like that or instead just soothe your dissatisfaction by complaining about how rich people have more than you and life's not fair. That's basically what the author is doing.
  - shlant 5y ago
    man these talking points of "everyone can just make different choices and eventually be successful" along with "anyone critiquing excess is just jealous/whining" are getting really old. Stop oversimplifying everyones lives and complex societal issues down to "personal responsibility" and hand-waving away valid criticisms. Inequality exists, it's not easy to get out of poverty, and unsustainable lifestyles have consequences.
  - jeffe 5y ago
    Do you know down to the penny, how much credit you have remaining on your credit cards? Have you ever lived in a state of fear, wondering which thing you've been putting off – the toothache, the weird noises coming from your car, the surprise bill, will bring you over the brink into homelessness? Do you think anyone in this position can simply get out by choice? How many people do you think live in conditions like this?
    - jurassic 5y ago
      > Have you ever lived in a state of fear, wondering which thing you've been putting off – the toothache, the weird noises coming from your car, the surprise bill, will bring you over the brink into homelessness? Assumptions are funny things. It might surprise you, but I actually HAVE been in more or less this situation. For me, it was in the years of the Great Recession. I graduated in 2010 and nobody would hire me, not even for service jobs like Starbucks/Walmart/etc. My parents had no ability to help me, and moving back in with them in the podunk town where I grew up would've been an economic dead end. At my lowest all I had was a $300 netbook computer to my name with maxed credit cards and an empty bank account; net worth -$60k due to student loans and credit card debt I acquired trying to make ends meet during my extended unemployment. During this period I would've been on the streets except I was able to rotate among friends who generously let me sleep on the sofa for free. I stole about 80% of my food from a nearby university by pretending to be a student on the dining plan and spent my days applying for jobs from the library while starting to learn how to code Python. What little income I had during this period came from ghost-writing papers for rich college kids--$10 per page!--and one-off tutoring gigs I arranged through Craigslist. I tried making logos for people on 99designs using a pirated version of Adobe Illustrator but never won any design contests and gave up after a couple weeks of trying to focus on the writing and coding which seemed more promising. When I managed to get my first paid tech job in 2014, I spent my first $20k on dental work I'd deferred to the point I needed a bunch of root canals and crowns. Only after my teeth were fixed did I understand how much of my mental bandwidth had been occupied by thinking: How are my teeth feeling today? It was difficult being poor and I considered killing myself at times because I felt like such a failure. But I'm glad I saw these as problems for myself to solve because if I was waiting for a government program or social revolution to make things fair, I'd still be waiting. Or homeless. Or dead. > Do you think anyone in this position can simply get out by choice? How many people do you think live in conditions like this? No, I don't think ANYONE can. And I don't think it's simple. But I think many people can. I wouldn't advise waiting on somebody else to fix your problems if you're able to attempt self-rescue. I'm tired of people who have never been poor infantilizing those who are by pretending they have no agency in life.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- drunkenman 5y ago
  Everyone has a choice to stop working. Suicide is always an option. Therefore your statement is factually incorrect.
- commandlinefan 5y ago
  Sure we do - almost all of us are saving for retirement at some point. It's up to you to decide how much you want to set aside so that you can potentially retire early if you're willing to sacrifice now.
  - shlant 5y ago
    maybe if by "we" you just mean "commenters of HN". 45% of Americans[1] and over 1/3 of Canadians [2] have no savings. 1. https://www.statista.com/chart/20323/americans-lack-savings/#:~:text=Dec%2018%2C%202019-,Personal%20savings%20in%20the%20U.S.,45%20percent%20have%20nothing%20saved https://www.statista.com/chart/20323/americans-lack-savings/.... 2. https://financialpost.com/personal-finance/more-than-a-third-of-canadians-have-no-retirement-savings-half-live-paycheque-to-paycheque-poll-finds https://financialpost.com/personal-finance/more-than-a-third...
    - ac29 5y ago
      Article 1 is misleading at best. I have less than $1000 in my savings account, but only because the interest rate is terrible. It doesnt mean I have less than $1000 saved. The article's conclusions conflate the two things.
      - shlant 5y ago
        It's not "misleading", it's just one way of measuring it. Feel free to take a look at these metrics if that specific one is unsatisfactory: 1. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/14/heres-how-many-americans-are-not-saving-any-money-for-emergencies-or-retirement-at-all.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/14/heres-how-many-americans-are... 2. https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2019/06/03/report-a-quarter-of-americans-have-no-retirement-savings-infographic/?sh=21c18dca3ebf https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2019/06/03/report... I just don't see how someone could possibly make the argument that everyone has the means to stop working and pursue something else. It points to being out of touch with the reality of not only Americans and Canadians but globally.
AlexandrB 5y ago
> Tons of people go through life without considering any alternatives to the path they are on, or developing the self-knowledge about what they actually want, which is a big reason so many people end up so unhappy. This feels like an expression of the "just world" fallacy[1]. It's entirely possible that many of the people stuck in 50hr/week jobs did all of the things you list but didn't get the lucky breaks Tim did and so are still working 50hrs a week. Consider an alternative reality where everybody read 4HWW, took that advice to heart and proceeded to apply it to their life. Would everyone be working 4hrs/week or would you still need some people to work those 40hr/wk jobs that keep the world running? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis
- whitepaint 5y ago
  The OP wasn't stating that the world is just. Like at all, nada. You are using a straw man argument.
- jurassic 5y ago
  > This feels like an expression of the "just world" fallacy[1]. It's entirely possible that many of the people stuck in 50hr/week jobs did all of the things you list but didn't get the lucky breaks Tim did and so are still working 50hrs a week. Saying I'm expressing the just-world fantasy implies I'm casting judgement on people or somehow saying they deserve to suffer in miserable jobs because they made bad choices. I don't think that's what I said at all. Recognizing the reality that everyone has a role (that they may not be aware of) in deciding what to do next is not a moral judgement. Entrepreneurship and becoming wealthy are not requirements to be intentional about work and having a fulfilling life. As an example, my sister is a single mom with an autistic child who worked in fast food for years and of course hated it. She realized she would be much happier if she could work in a healthcare field because she wanted work that made more of a difference to peoples lives. So she busted her ass and took student loans for night classes, and today she's successful as a nurse working every day in an operating room. For her, self-awareness of her desires led to goals and actions led to a much better outcome. > Consider an alternative reality where everybody read 4HWW, took that advice to heart and proceeded to apply it to their life. Would everyone be working 4hrs/week or would you still need some people to work those 40hr/wk jobs that keep the world running? I don't think it's necessary for everyone to achieve the same outcome for something to be a good idea. If you read the book you would know it's not really about working 4hrs/wk but rather about freeing yourself up to pursue work you find fulfilling. I think many more people could do that if they knew it was an option, but I don't think everyone would achieve that. Entrepreneurship is risky and difficult, and many people prefer a more predictable path.
muyuu 5y ago
Jessica's dream book of collectivistic Utopia, that she was expecting under the "4-hour work" metaphor... I doubt it would sell very well and for good reason. Her appeals to woke tropes make no sense, especially considering she goes by the title of "influencer"* - there's no colonialism in creating jobs, much less so in places with next to no digital economy. It's based on an abstract disregard to the fact that merely removing job opportunities will hardly leave anyone better off. There's also no colonialism in spending dollars where they get you further. It's just zero-sum guilt and envy porn. *edit: it's "unfluencer" - disregard that bit
- simonw 5y ago
  She uses the title "unfluencer", not influencer.
  - muyuu 5y ago
    she does indeed, I misread that
onlyrealcuzzo 5y ago
Saying they need some "personal responsibility" and not acknowledging that the odds are stacked against part-time minimum wage workers is disingenuous. If you look at the who the poor are - it's virtually all part-time minimum wage workers. It's disproportionately women of color with children. A lot of these kids were born when these women were very young, if not girls. Most of these people were born into poverty AND live in areas with terrible public education AND the sixteen states where minimum wage is the lowest federal minimum... Further, the majority of small businesses are not hiring 1 or 2 Ivy League educated MBAs they pay $250k per year. They're disproportionately hiring disenfranchised workers from the above ground. Granted, these small businesses generally aren't the 4-hour work week Tim was talking about.

ilaksh 5y ago

But "we" don't all have a choice to just "decide" to stop working full time. That's the point.

jurassic 5y ago
You have a choice to do something other than what you're doing right now. Having clear goals for where you want to end up that guide your choices, you can eventually stop working a job you hate and do something you find more fulfilling to generate the money you need. So the choice is do you want to work toward a goal like that or instead just soothe your dissatisfaction by complaining about how rich people have more than you and life's not fair. That's basically what the author is doing.
- shlant 5y ago
  man these talking points of "everyone can just make different choices and eventually be successful" along with "anyone critiquing excess is just jealous/whining" are getting really old. Stop oversimplifying everyones lives and complex societal issues down to "personal responsibility" and hand-waving away valid criticisms. Inequality exists, it's not easy to get out of poverty, and unsustainable lifestyles have consequences.
- jeffe 5y ago
  Do you know down to the penny, how much credit you have remaining on your credit cards? Have you ever lived in a state of fear, wondering which thing you've been putting off – the toothache, the weird noises coming from your car, the surprise bill, will bring you over the brink into homelessness? Do you think anyone in this position can simply get out by choice? How many people do you think live in conditions like this?
  - jurassic 5y ago
    > Have you ever lived in a state of fear, wondering which thing you've been putting off – the toothache, the weird noises coming from your car, the surprise bill, will bring you over the brink into homelessness? Assumptions are funny things. It might surprise you, but I actually HAVE been in more or less this situation. For me, it was in the years of the Great Recession. I graduated in 2010 and nobody would hire me, not even for service jobs like Starbucks/Walmart/etc. My parents had no ability to help me, and moving back in with them in the podunk town where I grew up would've been an economic dead end. At my lowest all I had was a $300 netbook computer to my name with maxed credit cards and an empty bank account; net worth -$60k due to student loans and credit card debt I acquired trying to make ends meet during my extended unemployment. During this period I would've been on the streets except I was able to rotate among friends who generously let me sleep on the sofa for free. I stole about 80% of my food from a nearby university by pretending to be a student on the dining plan and spent my days applying for jobs from the library while starting to learn how to code Python. What little income I had during this period came from ghost-writing papers for rich college kids--$10 per page!--and one-off tutoring gigs I arranged through Craigslist. I tried making logos for people on 99designs using a pirated version of Adobe Illustrator but never won any design contests and gave up after a couple weeks of trying to focus on the writing and coding which seemed more promising. When I managed to get my first paid tech job in 2014, I spent my first $20k on dental work I'd deferred to the point I needed a bunch of root canals and crowns. Only after my teeth were fixed did I understand how much of my mental bandwidth had been occupied by thinking: How are my teeth feeling today? It was difficult being poor and I considered killing myself at times because I felt like such a failure. But I'm glad I saw these as problems for myself to solve because if I was waiting for a government program or social revolution to make things fair, I'd still be waiting. Or homeless. Or dead. > Do you think anyone in this position can simply get out by choice? How many people do you think live in conditions like this? No, I don't think ANYONE can. And I don't think it's simple. But I think many people can. I wouldn't advise waiting on somebody else to fix your problems if you're able to attempt self-rescue. I'm tired of people who have never been poor infantilizing those who are by pretending they have no agency in life.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
drunkenman 5y ago
Everyone has a choice to stop working. Suicide is always an option. Therefore your statement is factually incorrect.
commandlinefan 5y ago
Sure we do - almost all of us are saving for retirement at some point. It's up to you to decide how much you want to set aside so that you can potentially retire early if you're willing to sacrifice now.
- shlant 5y ago
  maybe if by "we" you just mean "commenters of HN". 45% of Americans[1] and over 1/3 of Canadians [2] have no savings. 1. https://www.statista.com/chart/20323/americans-lack-savings/#:~:text=Dec%2018%2C%202019-,Personal%20savings%20in%20the%20U.S.,45%20percent%20have%20nothing%20saved https://www.statista.com/chart/20323/americans-lack-savings/.... 2. https://financialpost.com/personal-finance/more-than-a-third-of-canadians-have-no-retirement-savings-half-live-paycheque-to-paycheque-poll-finds https://financialpost.com/personal-finance/more-than-a-third...
  - ac29 5y ago
    Article 1 is misleading at best. I have less than $1000 in my savings account, but only because the interest rate is terrible. It doesnt mean I have less than $1000 saved. The article's conclusions conflate the two things.
    - shlant 5y ago
      It's not "misleading", it's just one way of measuring it. Feel free to take a look at these metrics if that specific one is unsatisfactory: 1. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/14/heres-how-many-americans-are-not-saving-any-money-for-emergencies-or-retirement-at-all.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/14/heres-how-many-americans-are... 2. https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2019/06/03/report-a-quarter-of-americans-have-no-retirement-savings-infographic/?sh=21c18dca3ebf https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2019/06/03/report... I just don't see how someone could possibly make the argument that everyone has the means to stop working and pursue something else. It points to being out of touch with the reality of not only Americans and Canadians but globally.

AlexandrB 5y ago

> Tons of people go through life without considering any alternatives to the path they are on, or developing the self-knowledge about what they actually want, which is a big reason so many people end up so unhappy. This feels like an expression of the "just world" fallacy[1]. It's entirely possible that many of the people stuck in 50hr/week jobs did all of the things you list but didn't get the lucky breaks Tim did and so are still working 50hrs a week. Consider an alternative reality where everybody read 4HWW, took that advice to heart and proceeded to apply it to their life. Would everyone be working 4hrs/week or would you still need some people to work those 40hr/wk jobs that keep the world running? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis

whitepaint 5y ago
The OP wasn't stating that the world is just. Like at all, nada. You are using a straw man argument.
jurassic 5y ago
> This feels like an expression of the "just world" fallacy[1]. It's entirely possible that many of the people stuck in 50hr/week jobs did all of the things you list but didn't get the lucky breaks Tim did and so are still working 50hrs a week. Saying I'm expressing the just-world fantasy implies I'm casting judgement on people or somehow saying they deserve to suffer in miserable jobs because they made bad choices. I don't think that's what I said at all. Recognizing the reality that everyone has a role (that they may not be aware of) in deciding what to do next is not a moral judgement. Entrepreneurship and becoming wealthy are not requirements to be intentional about work and having a fulfilling life. As an example, my sister is a single mom with an autistic child who worked in fast food for years and of course hated it. She realized she would be much happier if she could work in a healthcare field because she wanted work that made more of a difference to peoples lives. So she busted her ass and took student loans for night classes, and today she's successful as a nurse working every day in an operating room. For her, self-awareness of her desires led to goals and actions led to a much better outcome. > Consider an alternative reality where everybody read 4HWW, took that advice to heart and proceeded to apply it to their life. Would everyone be working 4hrs/week or would you still need some people to work those 40hr/wk jobs that keep the world running? I don't think it's necessary for everyone to achieve the same outcome for something to be a good idea. If you read the book you would know it's not really about working 4hrs/wk but rather about freeing yourself up to pursue work you find fulfilling. I think many more people could do that if they knew it was an option, but I don't think everyone would achieve that. Entrepreneurship is risky and difficult, and many people prefer a more predictable path.

muyuu 5y ago

Jessica's dream book of collectivistic Utopia, that she was expecting under the "4-hour work" metaphor... I doubt it would sell very well and for good reason. Her appeals to woke tropes make no sense, especially considering she goes by the title of "influencer"* - there's no colonialism in creating jobs, much less so in places with next to no digital economy. It's based on an abstract disregard to the fact that merely removing job opportunities will hardly leave anyone better off. There's also no colonialism in spending dollars where they get you further. It's just zero-sum guilt and envy porn. *edit: it's "unfluencer" - disregard that bit

simonw 5y ago
She uses the title "unfluencer", not influencer.
- muyuu 5y ago
  she does indeed, I misread that

onlyrealcuzzo 5y ago

Saying they need some "personal responsibility" and not acknowledging that the odds are stacked against part-time minimum wage workers is disingenuous. If you look at the who the poor are - it's virtually all part-time minimum wage workers. It's disproportionately women of color with children. A lot of these kids were born when these women were very young, if not girls. Most of these people were born into poverty AND live in areas with terrible public education AND the sixteen states where minimum wage is the lowest federal minimum... Further, the majority of small businesses are not hiring 1 or 2 Ivy League educated MBAs they pay $250k per year. They're disproportionately hiring disenfranchised workers from the above ground. Granted, these small businesses generally aren't the 4-hour work week Tim was talking about.