11 ms·

The T-34 keyboard layout

97 points by lawn 5y ago

CarVac 5y ago
I'm always saddened by how few thumb keys many of these ergo boards have in comparison to the Mitosis layout, which lets me entirely avoid having anything but the most basic momentary layers, with no tap-dancing, latching, long-press-does-something-different, or chording.
- fouric 5y ago
  I think that the Manuform's thumb clusters, while having slightly fewer keys (6 per hand vs 8), are more ergonomic than those of the Mitosis, due to allowing the thumbs to use their stronger movements (curling in vs. moving laterally). But, more generally, I agree - there's very little excuse for not having thumb clusters if you're trying to build an ergonomic keyboard.
  - CarVac 5y ago
    Obviously the 3D sculpting of the Dactyl Manuform can be better than a 2D layout, but the distinction I find in the Mitosis layout is the fact that the main thumb keys are two-tiered, letting me use one thumb to hit both shift and the number layer key simultaneously, or one at a time.
    - fouric 5y ago
      You can do the same thing with the Dactyl-Manuform layout! I regularly hit two modifier keys at once (e.g. shift and control) - it's rather easy to do, or at least for certain pairs (although the same property appears to apply to the Mitosis).
geniium 5y ago
Interesting, but that must be hell to learn using that new multi layered layout.
- 1MachineElf 5y ago
  Not plugging to promote it, just to call attention to a design pattern I used in my 34-key layout (same number as the author's) that made it less hellish to learn (albeit, one has to know dvorak, but it's probably adaptable to something more intuitive.) The layout has two layer keys that can be used together to switch between 4 layers in total, with the default one being dvorak alphas, the left one being Mods for modifiers, the right one being Nums for numbers, and combined Mods and Nums for extra modifiers. Here's an except from the readme: Hold Mods + Tap E = Enter Hold Mods + Hold Nums + Tap E = Escape Hold Mods + Tap B = Backspace Hold Mods + Tap D = Delete Hold Mods + Tap T = Tab So I found this was very easy to adapt to because the most important modifiers are in places that are very intuitively memorized. It's something to consider if you want to go down this road. Link: https://github.com/1MachineElf/qmk_firmware/tree/_sb4dv/keyboards/planck/keymaps/sb4dv https://github.com/1MachineElf/qmk_firmware/tree/_sb4dv/keyb...
  - themulticaster 5y ago
    I'm just going to ask this here since you seem to know your stuff: Just how do you learn such a multi-layer setup? I'm asking mostly from an initial productivity/motivation perspective: Right now I'm happily touch-typing on my QWERTY keyboard (technically it's QWERTZ, but that's close enough) based on muscle memory. If I started learning an entirely new layout, how could I ever be productive when always confusing different layers or keys for a few weeks? On the other hand, maybe switching keyboard layouts is less hard than I imagine. I can mentally switch from QWERTZ to QWERTY with a little effort nowadays (after opening Vim on terminals with misconfigured keyboard layout a few times, you quickly learn where to find the : key...) But then again, QWERTZ and QWERTY are quite close and rather simple.
    - nekdmrm 5y ago
      It’s not as hard as you imagine, but it isn’t easy. You’ll be annoyed and feel stupid, at least for a week or so drastically you change the layout. A note about layers. You probably use “layers” everyday without thinking about it. Holding “shift” enables a whole new layer where the numbers send symbols and the letters are uppercase. Holding option on a Mac enables a whole new layer with a bunch of funky symbols. Holding “FN” on a laptop enables a whole new layer (or maybe just a numpad).
sirodoht 5y ago
Side note: awesome body font :) Used to have the same one in my website.
- lawn 5y ago
  If anyone's curious, that's Century Supra, from the creator of Practical Typography. https://mbtype.com/a https://mbtype.com/a https://practicaltypography.com/ https://practicaltypography.com/
barry27 5y ago
To achieve goal A I must first achieve goal B, which requires goal C, etc. Turtles all the way down. Just get on with it qwerty style.
codethief 5y ago
> Nothing special going on with the function keys. Having them on the same positions as numbers makes them easy to learn, which is important for me as I almost never use them. Unfortunately, most manufacturers of ergonomic keyboards seem to think along the same lines, so they omit the corresponding hardware keys and argue that you could always put the function keys on another layer if you really need them. I, however, use my function keys hundreds of times a day (mainly to switch workspaces) and I do not want to have press an extra key every single time. The key principle I follow with all my key bindings is this: The more often I use a certain functionality, the more accessible it needs to be, i.e. the less work (or, literally, input) it should require in order to avoid putting needless strain on my fingers and wrists. (I have suffered from RSI in the past.) In particular, oft-used commands[1] should be available through a single key (or a very short and accessible[0] key chord) if possible. Unfortunately, the most common set of key bindings (Vim/Emacs/IntelliJ/…) usually violate this principle. Long story short, this is the single reason why I haven't bought an ErgoDox/keyboardio/… so far. Also, I don't think it really matters whether personally one uses a key X or not. In my experience, you can never have enough keys! And you will find an application eventually – provided the key is in the right place ergonomically speaking, i.e. easy to reach. [0]: The more often I use a key chord, the stronger the fingers should be that push the individual keys – e.g. the thumb, index and middle finger. [1]: Commands, in turn, that are used only rarely should actually not be available through a key binding at all – no one remembers them and they only clutter the key binding space and cause confusion when you do (accidentally) hit those keys. Instead, those commands should be accessible through a searchable command palette. (Think Shift-Shift in IntelliJ.)
- fouric 5y ago
  > In particular, oft-used commands[1] should be available through a single key (or a very short and accessible[0] key chord) if possible. Wouldn't a real ergonomic keyboard (i.e. Dactyl-Manuform or Squeezebox) with thumb clusters fit this bill? Those put the modifier keys on your thumbs, so a two-key chord (layer mod + main key -> function key) should be relatively "short and accessible", at least by my standards.
  - codethief 5y ago
DavidVoid 5y ago
Always cool to see people make their own layouts. Those chords are quite a neat feature. If you want to try something that's a lot more chord-based and which uses even fewer keys (basically just 23 keys), then I'd recommend downloading Plover and learning Steno. It takes quite a while to learn, but once you do it's very comfortable and can be very fast. Here's steno on a hobby machine at 202 WPM for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APT7SN1iof8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APT7SN1iof8
- sdfin 5y ago
  Does is work for programming? and does it work for typing in different languages?
  - MivLives 5y ago
    The dev of it uses it to code the program itself.
  - DavidVoid 5y ago
    > Does it work for programming? Yes, you can customize your dictionaries as much as you like and add common words/symbols that you use in programming, and there are decent options for writing in camelCase etc. There's also Emily's symbol dictionary which is good for writing various symbols [1], here's a poster showing all the symbols available in it [2]. > does it work for typing in different languages? Yes. As long as there's an existing steno theory for the languages you want to use, then you can download those dictionaries and learn those theories. But if there isn't an existing theory/dictionary for a language then you can just use fingerspelling instead [3] (i.e., write letter by letter like on a regular keyboard), although that's ofc much slower than regular Steno is. [1] https://github.com/EPLHREU/emily-symbols https://github.com/EPLHREU/emily-symbols [2] https://steno.sammdot.ca/emily-symbols.png https://steno.sammdot.ca/emily-symbols.png [3] https://steno.sammdot.ca/plover-fingerspelling.png https://steno.sammdot.ca/plover-fingerspelling.png
k2enemy 5y ago
Just an FYI if the author is here. Benford's law applies to the leading (most significant) digit of numbers, not all digits. Nice article and analysis though. I recently built an Iris with low profile keycaps and absolutely love the feel of it. But it now sits on a shelf because it made working on other computers too confusing.
- a1369209993 5y ago
  > Benford's law applies to the leading (most significant) digit of numbers, not all digits. Actually it does apply to all digits[0], just much less so. > The distribution of the n-th digit, as n increases, rapidly approaches a uniform distribution 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benford's_law#Generalization_to_digits_beyond_the_first https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benford's_law#Generalization_t...
- lawn 5y ago
  Good point, missed that. Thanks!
Ieghaehia9 5y ago
> It’s common to use a program to optimize the layout, letting the computer explore tons of layouts very quickly. I did not go this route, as I found it difficult to write down my exact preferences. I am reminded of a paper about optimizing the specialized characters on a French keyboard[1][2]. The accent and ligature layout got accepted into standard, and the authors write that they had to adjust the criteria based on feedback from the standards body about which layouts felt more right. What it shows is that it is possible to turn optimization into an interactive process when it's unclear what the objective function is. The paper also mentions a new method to solve very large scale problems. I wonder if it could optimize a whole keyboard, whether chorded or straight. [1] http://resources.mpi-inf.mpg.de/keyboardoptimization/MOTOR2019/MOTOR2019.pdf http://resources.mpi-inf.mpg.de/keyboardoptimization/MOTOR20... [2] https://cacm.acm.org/magazines/2021/2/250082-azerty-amlior/fulltext https://cacm.acm.org/magazines/2021/2/250082-azerty-amlior/f...
geniium 5y ago
Does someone know if machine learning has been used to build keyboard layout? It would be amazing to say I use {English} as my main language and I code in {Elm} 80% of my time and {c++}. I use {this} keyboard layout and tadaaa, this is the best multi layered layout based on these settings with your hardware keyboard.
- lawn 5y ago
  There are many layouts that are computer optimized. The layout RSTHD that the base layer of T-34 is based on used simulated annealing for example: https://xsznix.wordpress.com/2016/05/16/introducing-the-rsthd-layout/ https://xsznix.wordpress.com/2016/05/16/introducing-the-rsth...
- Ieghaehia9 5y ago
  If nonlinear mathematical optimization counts as machine learning, there's been at least one paper (see my other post[1] and optimization group's page[2]). Carpalx[3] is more like what you envision, but it uses simulated annealing instead of mathematical programming[4], so you won't know how far from the true optimum its solutions are. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27428539 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27428539 [2] http://resources.mpi-inf.mpg.de/keyboardoptimization/ http://resources.mpi-inf.mpg.de/keyboardoptimization/ [3] http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/ http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/ [4] http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?simulated_annealing http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?simulated_annealing
deeg 5y ago
There is some irony in naming an ergonomic keyboard after a Soviet tank. WW II-era Russian tanks had the reputation (possibly unwarranted) of being horribly uncomfortable.
rcarmo 5y ago
I’ve been considering jumping down this rabbit hole and getting a Planck 40% keyboard, but there are pretty much zero sub-60% Bluetooth keyboards (or even PCBs) available. Anyone got any pointers regarding that? Has to be BT and not just “wireless”.
- 3np 5y ago
  I haven't tried any myself, but there are USB-to-BT-HID adapters such as these that I've seen people in the mechanical keyboard community use: http://handheldsci.com/kb/ http://handheldsci.com/kb/
  - rcarmo 5y ago
    Dangly bits are something I'd prefer to avoid (have enough dongles in my life).
    - 3np 5y ago
      If you want neither dongle/adapter nor DIY, I'm quite sure you're SoL for a <60% bluetooth keyboard. Though as I write that out I have a feeling I may actually have seen something like that in Akihabara recently... EDIT: Not what I was thinking of, but if you're OK with 60%, Vortexgear Tab fits the bill: https://www.amazon.com/stores/page/2721729B-23D7-4957-A573-1B24202E8457 https://www.amazon.com/stores/page/2721729B-23D7-4957-A573-1... EDIT2: A couple in this list as well: https://www.hayksaakian.com/portable-mechanical-keyboard/ https://www.hayksaakian.com/portable-mechanical-keyboard/
      - rcarmo 5y ago
        Thanks, I'll have a look!
- lawn 5y ago
  Check out nice!nano, which is a drop-in replacement for the Pro Micro (that's very common on split keyboards at least). https://splitkb.com/collections/keyboard-parts/products/nice-nano-rev1-0 https://splitkb.com/collections/keyboard-parts/products/nice...
bjoli 5y ago
Why are everyone focusing on just putting the common keys in the most accessible places? I still haven't found a layout that was quite as efficient for me as the Capewell layout: http://www.michaelcapewell.com/projects/keyboard/index.htm#The_Coming_Capewell_Layout_ http://www.michaelcapewell.com/projects/keyboard/index.htm#T... No other layout focuses of comfortable combos in the same way. I had to make some adaptions for Swedish, but the umlaut vowels are not common anyway. I comfortable got up to about 100wpm with it, which is my about what I do on Dvorak (svdvorak, the true Swedish Dvorak layout). It just feels more fluent and relaxed than any other layout I tried. I ended up going back to svdvorak due to regular us Dvorak being available everywhere.
- lawn 5y ago
  What makes you think this is just putting common keys on the most accessible places? Troublesome bigrams are for instance very minimal with this layout and the rolls that exist are also comfortable, and this also extends to the symbol layer.
  - bjoli 5y ago
    Because it was not mentioned in the post, and it is very hard to reason about just by looking at a layout. My main complaint is actually not specific to this layout (which seems fine, TBH) but a more general one. Trying to optimize for good bigrams is just as important as avoiding bad ones. Now, probably not unlike you, I currently write in a couple of languages daily (all Germanic, so maybe not a huge problem) so this seems easier said than done.
mamcx 5y ago
Interesting all the effort in show how important could be to optimize for keywords... and put them under the bus in a too small keyboard layout... with extra layering!. I do the exact opposite (without doing "science" just my feel!): https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/9wjpg0/finished_ergo_keyboard/ https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/9wjpg0... Having dedicate keys for symbols is super-neat. I near "combo" free, and even adding 3 extra macro keys (the ones above the arrows) allow me to pu 3 o the most common, in special Ctrl+R (search in termina) and Ctrl+B (run/build). That I do a lot!

97 points by lawn 5y ago

I'm always saddened by how few thumb keys many of these ergo boards have in comparison to the Mitosis layout, which lets me entirely avoid having anything but the most basic momentary layers, with no tap-dancing, latching, long-press-does-something-different, or chording.

fouric 5y ago
I think that the Manuform's thumb clusters, while having slightly fewer keys (6 per hand vs 8), are more ergonomic than those of the Mitosis, due to allowing the thumbs to use their stronger movements (curling in vs. moving laterally). But, more generally, I agree - there's very little excuse for not having thumb clusters if you're trying to build an ergonomic keyboard.
- CarVac 5y ago
  Obviously the 3D sculpting of the Dactyl Manuform can be better than a 2D layout, but the distinction I find in the Mitosis layout is the fact that the main thumb keys are two-tiered, letting me use one thumb to hit both shift and the number layer key simultaneously, or one at a time.
  - fouric 5y ago
    You can do the same thing with the Dactyl-Manuform layout! I regularly hit two modifier keys at once (e.g. shift and control) - it's rather easy to do, or at least for certain pairs (although the same property appears to apply to the Mitosis).

geniium 5y ago

Interesting, but that must be hell to learn using that new multi layered layout.

1MachineElf 5y ago
Not plugging to promote it, just to call attention to a design pattern I used in my 34-key layout (same number as the author's) that made it less hellish to learn (albeit, one has to know dvorak, but it's probably adaptable to something more intuitive.) The layout has two layer keys that can be used together to switch between 4 layers in total, with the default one being dvorak alphas, the left one being Mods for modifiers, the right one being Nums for numbers, and combined Mods and Nums for extra modifiers. Here's an except from the readme: Hold Mods + Tap E = Enter Hold Mods + Hold Nums + Tap E = Escape Hold Mods + Tap B = Backspace Hold Mods + Tap D = Delete Hold Mods + Tap T = Tab So I found this was very easy to adapt to because the most important modifiers are in places that are very intuitively memorized. It's something to consider if you want to go down this road. Link: https://github.com/1MachineElf/qmk_firmware/tree/_sb4dv/keyboards/planck/keymaps/sb4dv https://github.com/1MachineElf/qmk_firmware/tree/_sb4dv/keyb...
- themulticaster 5y ago
  I'm just going to ask this here since you seem to know your stuff: Just how do you learn such a multi-layer setup? I'm asking mostly from an initial productivity/motivation perspective: Right now I'm happily touch-typing on my QWERTY keyboard (technically it's QWERTZ, but that's close enough) based on muscle memory. If I started learning an entirely new layout, how could I ever be productive when always confusing different layers or keys for a few weeks? On the other hand, maybe switching keyboard layouts is less hard than I imagine. I can mentally switch from QWERTZ to QWERTY with a little effort nowadays (after opening Vim on terminals with misconfigured keyboard layout a few times, you quickly learn where to find the : key...) But then again, QWERTZ and QWERTY are quite close and rather simple.
  - nekdmrm 5y ago
    It’s not as hard as you imagine, but it isn’t easy. You’ll be annoyed and feel stupid, at least for a week or so drastically you change the layout. A note about layers. You probably use “layers” everyday without thinking about it. Holding “shift” enables a whole new layer where the numbers send symbols and the letters are uppercase. Holding option on a Mac enables a whole new layer with a bunch of funky symbols. Holding “FN” on a laptop enables a whole new layer (or maybe just a numpad).

sirodoht 5y ago

Side note: awesome body font :) Used to have the same one in my website.

lawn 5y ago
If anyone's curious, that's Century Supra, from the creator of Practical Typography. https://mbtype.com/a https://mbtype.com/a https://practicaltypography.com/ https://practicaltypography.com/

barry27 5y ago

To achieve goal A I must first achieve goal B, which requires goal C, etc. Turtles all the way down. Just get on with it qwerty style.

codethief 5y ago

> Nothing special going on with the function keys. Having them on the same positions as numbers makes them easy to learn, which is important for me as I almost never use them. Unfortunately, most manufacturers of ergonomic keyboards seem to think along the same lines, so they omit the corresponding hardware keys and argue that you could always put the function keys on another layer if you really need them. I, however, use my function keys hundreds of times a day (mainly to switch workspaces) and I do not want to have press an extra key every single time. The key principle I follow with all my key bindings is this: The more often I use a certain functionality, the more accessible it needs to be, i.e. the less work (or, literally, input) it should require in order to avoid putting needless strain on my fingers and wrists. (I have suffered from RSI in the past.) In particular, oft-used commands[1] should be available through a single key (or a very short and accessible[0] key chord) if possible. Unfortunately, the most common set of key bindings (Vim/Emacs/IntelliJ/…) usually violate this principle. Long story short, this is the single reason why I haven't bought an ErgoDox/keyboardio/… so far. Also, I don't think it really matters whether personally one uses a key X or not. In my experience, you can never have enough keys! And you will find an application eventually – provided the key is in the right place ergonomically speaking, i.e. easy to reach. [0]: The more often I use a key chord, the stronger the fingers should be that push the individual keys – e.g. the thumb, index and middle finger. [1]: Commands, in turn, that are used only rarely should actually not be available through a key binding at all – no one remembers them and they only clutter the key binding space and cause confusion when you do (accidentally) hit those keys. Instead, those commands should be accessible through a searchable command palette. (Think Shift-Shift in IntelliJ.)

fouric 5y ago
> In particular, oft-used commands[1] should be available through a single key (or a very short and accessible[0] key chord) if possible. Wouldn't a real ergonomic keyboard (i.e. Dactyl-Manuform or Squeezebox) with thumb clusters fit this bill? Those put the modifier keys on your thumbs, so a two-key chord (layer mod + main key -> function key) should be relatively "short and accessible", at least by my standards.
- codethief 5y ago

DavidVoid 5y ago

Always cool to see people make their own layouts. Those chords are quite a neat feature. If you want to try something that's a lot more chord-based and which uses even fewer keys (basically just 23 keys), then I'd recommend downloading Plover and learning Steno. It takes quite a while to learn, but once you do it's very comfortable and can be very fast. Here's steno on a hobby machine at 202 WPM for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APT7SN1iof8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APT7SN1iof8

sdfin 5y ago
Does is work for programming? and does it work for typing in different languages?
- MivLives 5y ago
  The dev of it uses it to code the program itself.
- DavidVoid 5y ago
  > Does it work for programming? Yes, you can customize your dictionaries as much as you like and add common words/symbols that you use in programming, and there are decent options for writing in camelCase etc. There's also Emily's symbol dictionary which is good for writing various symbols [1], here's a poster showing all the symbols available in it [2]. > does it work for typing in different languages? Yes. As long as there's an existing steno theory for the languages you want to use, then you can download those dictionaries and learn those theories. But if there isn't an existing theory/dictionary for a language then you can just use fingerspelling instead [3] (i.e., write letter by letter like on a regular keyboard), although that's ofc much slower than regular Steno is. [1] https://github.com/EPLHREU/emily-symbols https://github.com/EPLHREU/emily-symbols [2] https://steno.sammdot.ca/emily-symbols.png https://steno.sammdot.ca/emily-symbols.png [3] https://steno.sammdot.ca/plover-fingerspelling.png https://steno.sammdot.ca/plover-fingerspelling.png

k2enemy 5y ago

Just an FYI if the author is here. Benford's law applies to the leading (most significant) digit of numbers, not all digits. Nice article and analysis though. I recently built an Iris with low profile keycaps and absolutely love the feel of it. But it now sits on a shelf because it made working on other computers too confusing.

a1369209993 5y ago
> Benford's law applies to the leading (most significant) digit of numbers, not all digits. Actually it does apply to all digits[0], just much less so. > The distribution of the n-th digit, as n increases, rapidly approaches a uniform distribution 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benford's_law#Generalization_to_digits_beyond_the_first https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benford's_law#Generalization_t...
lawn 5y ago
Good point, missed that. Thanks!

Ieghaehia9 5y ago

> It’s common to use a program to optimize the layout, letting the computer explore tons of layouts very quickly. I did not go this route, as I found it difficult to write down my exact preferences. I am reminded of a paper about optimizing the specialized characters on a French keyboard[1][2]. The accent and ligature layout got accepted into standard, and the authors write that they had to adjust the criteria based on feedback from the standards body about which layouts felt more right. What it shows is that it is possible to turn optimization into an interactive process when it's unclear what the objective function is. The paper also mentions a new method to solve very large scale problems. I wonder if it could optimize a whole keyboard, whether chorded or straight. [1] http://resources.mpi-inf.mpg.de/keyboardoptimization/MOTOR2019/MOTOR2019.pdf http://resources.mpi-inf.mpg.de/keyboardoptimization/MOTOR20... [2] https://cacm.acm.org/magazines/2021/2/250082-azerty-amlior/fulltext https://cacm.acm.org/magazines/2021/2/250082-azerty-amlior/f...

geniium 5y ago

Does someone know if machine learning has been used to build keyboard layout? It would be amazing to say I use {English} as my main language and I code in {Elm} 80% of my time and {c++}. I use {this} keyboard layout and tadaaa, this is the best multi layered layout based on these settings with your hardware keyboard.

lawn 5y ago
There are many layouts that are computer optimized. The layout RSTHD that the base layer of T-34 is based on used simulated annealing for example: https://xsznix.wordpress.com/2016/05/16/introducing-the-rsthd-layout/ https://xsznix.wordpress.com/2016/05/16/introducing-the-rsth...
Ieghaehia9 5y ago
If nonlinear mathematical optimization counts as machine learning, there's been at least one paper (see my other post[1] and optimization group's page[2]). Carpalx[3] is more like what you envision, but it uses simulated annealing instead of mathematical programming[4], so you won't know how far from the true optimum its solutions are. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27428539 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27428539 [2] http://resources.mpi-inf.mpg.de/keyboardoptimization/ http://resources.mpi-inf.mpg.de/keyboardoptimization/ [3] http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/ http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/ [4] http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?simulated_annealing http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?simulated_annealing

deeg 5y ago

There is some irony in naming an ergonomic keyboard after a Soviet tank. WW II-era Russian tanks had the reputation (possibly unwarranted) of being horribly uncomfortable.

rcarmo 5y ago

I’ve been considering jumping down this rabbit hole and getting a Planck 40% keyboard, but there are pretty much zero sub-60% Bluetooth keyboards (or even PCBs) available. Anyone got any pointers regarding that? Has to be BT and not just “wireless”.

3np 5y ago
I haven't tried any myself, but there are USB-to-BT-HID adapters such as these that I've seen people in the mechanical keyboard community use: http://handheldsci.com/kb/ http://handheldsci.com/kb/
- rcarmo 5y ago
  Dangly bits are something I'd prefer to avoid (have enough dongles in my life).
  - 3np 5y ago
    If you want neither dongle/adapter nor DIY, I'm quite sure you're SoL for a <60% bluetooth keyboard. Though as I write that out I have a feeling I may actually have seen something like that in Akihabara recently... EDIT: Not what I was thinking of, but if you're OK with 60%, Vortexgear Tab fits the bill: https://www.amazon.com/stores/page/2721729B-23D7-4957-A573-1B24202E8457 https://www.amazon.com/stores/page/2721729B-23D7-4957-A573-1... EDIT2: A couple in this list as well: https://www.hayksaakian.com/portable-mechanical-keyboard/ https://www.hayksaakian.com/portable-mechanical-keyboard/
    - rcarmo 5y ago
      Thanks, I'll have a look!
lawn 5y ago
Check out nice!nano, which is a drop-in replacement for the Pro Micro (that's very common on split keyboards at least). https://splitkb.com/collections/keyboard-parts/products/nice-nano-rev1-0 https://splitkb.com/collections/keyboard-parts/products/nice...

bjoli 5y ago

Why are everyone focusing on just putting the common keys in the most accessible places? I still haven't found a layout that was quite as efficient for me as the Capewell layout: http://www.michaelcapewell.com/projects/keyboard/index.htm#The_Coming_Capewell_Layout_ http://www.michaelcapewell.com/projects/keyboard/index.htm#T... No other layout focuses of comfortable combos in the same way. I had to make some adaptions for Swedish, but the umlaut vowels are not common anyway. I comfortable got up to about 100wpm with it, which is my about what I do on Dvorak (svdvorak, the true Swedish Dvorak layout). It just feels more fluent and relaxed than any other layout I tried. I ended up going back to svdvorak due to regular us Dvorak being available everywhere.

lawn 5y ago
What makes you think this is just putting common keys on the most accessible places? Troublesome bigrams are for instance very minimal with this layout and the rolls that exist are also comfortable, and this also extends to the symbol layer.
- bjoli 5y ago
  Because it was not mentioned in the post, and it is very hard to reason about just by looking at a layout. My main complaint is actually not specific to this layout (which seems fine, TBH) but a more general one. Trying to optimize for good bigrams is just as important as avoiding bad ones. Now, probably not unlike you, I currently write in a couple of languages daily (all Germanic, so maybe not a huge problem) so this seems easier said than done.

mamcx 5y ago

Interesting all the effort in show how important could be to optimize for keywords... and put them under the bus in a too small keyboard layout... with extra layering!. I do the exact opposite (without doing "science" just my feel!): https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/9wjpg0/finished_ergo_keyboard/ https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/9wjpg0... Having dedicate keys for symbols is super-neat. I near "combo" free, and even adding 3 extra macro keys (the ones above the arrows) allow me to pu 3 o the most common, in special Ctrl+R (search in termina) and Ctrl+B (run/build). That I do a lot!