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people with dogs off-leash are extremely inconsiderate. they're also the type to get hostile and even violent if you say anything

diggan 5y ago
I frequently walk my dogs without leash. They follow my command, don't disturb other people or dogs unless both parties engage and generally I don't do anything that someone who has a leash wouldn't be doing. They also walk side-by-side with me when off-leash. This is very common in the city I live and surrounding area (Barcelona, Spain and Catalunya). Both me and others without leashes are indistinctive from people who are using leashes. How is inconsiderate if the dogs themselves are behaving? Maybe there is something I'm missing, and I'd like to understand your point of view. I could understand you think it's inconsiderate if people don't have control on their dogs and they annoy others while the owners do nothing, then I agree with you. But just because of being off-leash? Not sure I understand that line of reasoning. Edit: Just to clarify further, if I did meet someone who asks me to leash my dog I would obviously do so without hostility or violence. In my ~6 years of having dogs in Barcelona, that has yet to happen even once.
- tomjen3 5y ago
  The wast majority of dogs that aren't leashed should be. If I encounter your dogs I can't know if they are one of the handful out of a hundred who are totally safe to keep off leash, or not. I can also not know if they are mostly fine off leash but react badly to bicyclists, other dogs or whatever. So when I encounter them I have to assume you are not a reponsible dog owner.
- blamazon 5y ago
  > How is it inconsiderate if the dogs themselves are behaving? This is the problem right here. We have no idea whether your dogs are properly trained or not. There is no certification or regulation for having a dog off leash. We have no idea if they’re going to suddenly snap and, in the worst case scenario, viciously attack a baby, something they are biologically quite capable of. It is probably different in collectivist societies where folks consider proper training a prerequisite to going off-leash, but where I’m from we have a scourge of ignorant owners who are not in control of their dogs. They ruin it for everybody.
  - diggan 5y ago
    > We have no idea whether your dogs are properly trained or not I think the assumption is, at least from mine and others like me, is that if your dog is off-leash, you can handle your dog off-leash. The same if you bring friends to some social event, you wouldn't bring them if you can't handle them and they can behave in public. I'm not afraid they are gonna attack me, although sometimes humans do attack other humans, most of them are fine so no need to worry in general. > but where I’m from we have a scourge of ignorant owners who are not in control of their dogs. They ruin it for everybody. Yes, I agree, it's terrible when owners have no control over their dogs. But that's not relevant to the leash itself, that's relevant to the expertise of the owner. Dogs on leashes misbehave as well, and can easily (if wanted and the owner is a terrible one) unleash themselves by either raw power or the owner not paying attention.
    - TomVDB 5y ago
      > The same if you bring friends to some social event, you wouldn't bring them if you can't handle them and they can behave in public. No, this is not the same. You are legally responsible for the behavior of your dog.
      - musingsole 5y ago
        The legal responsibility angle of this all always leave my head spinning. If you let your dog off leash in a place where it is illegal to do so, congratulations: you've just lost the lawsuit. If anything remotely funny happens -- regardless of what -- the liability can and will fall on the dog-owner for their reckless behavior. The real sad part of this is when the dog gets put down for the stupid owner...but my point is the people who let their dogs off leash have also posted a big, red sign saying "I'm responsible for anything happening here" -- even though few of them seem aware of that fact. Liability only becomes a question again if there is another dog-owner with their dog off leash.
      - wang_li 5y ago
        Dogs should be treated like guns and other weapons. If a person gets a fine or jail time for shooting someone, a dog owner should get the same if their dog bites someone. If my gun would be taken away if I rubbed it in someone's crotch, then a dog should be taken away if it sticks its snout in someone's crotch. Perhaps one would say "it's not the owner's fault, the dog makes it's own decisions", well that makes it worse. my gun doesn't aim and fire itself. So maybe dogs should be regulated even more than guns.
- asimpletune 5y ago
  Do we just downvote people now who contradict the majority’s opinion? As far as I can say this adds to the discussion. Someone literally said people who don’t have their dogs on leashes are prone to violent confrontations. Then someone else retorted this is not the case for them and asked for elaboration to better understand their interlocutor’s point of view. We should not be abusing downvote privilegies by discouraging viewpoints that we disagree with, when these viewpoints are relevant to the discussion. In the long run that will be harmful to ths community here and the next generation of hackers will go to different forums, or, worse, learn from our example.
  - randompwd 5y ago
    Meta comments do not belong.
- totalZero 5y ago
  I'm not the GP but I'd like to comment on this because it's an interesting question. Some people are afraid of dogs. Others come from cultures where dogs are considered ritually unclean. And no stranger can verify just by a glance that your dogs will behave themselves. To take the third point to its logical extreme, imagine a town where police wear street clothes and openly carry firearms. You, a visitor, cannot determine by observation alone that they are all highly trained officers of the law. You simply see people with firearms. That could be unsettling, despite the fact that the presence of those people actually makes you safer. I suppose that if everyone is walking their dogs without a leash, it's not really an issue because the culture has adapted to that practice.
  - foobiekr 5y ago
    I have a friend whose pet dog killed one of his other pets, is known to growl at children, and to me seems genuinely dangerous. Friend insists that the dog is a good boy and wouldn’t ever hurt anything. Friend insists dog loves children. Friend is an intelligent, gregarious, kind hearted tech worker. He’s also completely delusional and in denial about his dangerous, demonstrably violent pit bull. Friend routinely takes dog off leash in places where that is not permitted. This is the problem.
- CJefferson 5y ago
  The problem is I don't know your dogs are well controlled. I've been bitten twice over the last year by leashless dogs. This could of course be solved by introducing stiff penalties for owners of unleashed dogs who bite -- how about a fixed 10,000 dollar fine?
  - ptr2voidStar 5y ago
    >introducing stiff penalties for owners of unleashed dogs who bite -- how about a fixed 10,000 dollar fine? If such a law were ever to be passed, something tells me a lot of people with "well behaved" dogs would suddenly start to leash their dogs "just in case". Humans are very predictable in that fashion.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- patcon 5y ago
  Laws are about enforceability, not individual outcomes. Your doing what you're doing stabilizes a culture where there can be no consequences for anyone in this domain, because there's no clear line of enforcement. What's a low-wage enforcement officer expected to do in this context you advocate, where people "mind their own dog's abilities" and only get fined when some clear violation occurs? Are they supposed to fine people only when they see dogs chasing birds, or scarring a fearful child, or jumping up on an elderly person, or any number of other things with unclear lines? No, you just outlaw dogs off-leash, and allow the $20/h enforcement officer to clearly execute their pro-social task. The anti-social behavior get fined.
  - admax88q 5y ago
    So basically the parties that are actually the problem are too hard to find, so we target everyone who fits into a similar category.
    - bradleyjg 5y ago
      Yes, because we don’t have infinite enforcement resources we need to decide if we are going to prioritize type I errors or type II. Given the balance of harms minimizing type II errors (i.e. requiring leashes where they aren’t necessary) seems the better choice.
  - diggan 5y ago
    To be fair, walking your dogs without a leash in the city of Barcelona is already illegal. You can walk past the police and they won't do anything though, unless your dog is not behaving, then they'll use the law to give you a fine for not having a leash. So while it's setup like you say it is, in theory, what you think cannot happen is what happens in practice. Same with public drinking and other laws. The police usually look the other way unless you are abusing it somehow, being too drunk, loud or otherwise annoying. Sitting in the park with a bottle of wine is fine and won't end up with you getting a ticket, even though it's illegal. At worst they'll tell you to stop whatever you're doing, and if you follow their command, that's the end of the situation. Maybe the big difference here between law officers in Spain (Barcelona at least) and wherever you're based, is how strict they actually enforce the laws. Here is maybe a bit laxer, which also fits in with the whole culture here, and it's represented in how law officers behave as well.
- dnh44 5y ago
  Walking dogs off lead is totally normal in the UK as well.
  - giobox 5y ago
    Dog attacks are common enough in the U.K. to be a topic you can subscribe to on the BBC news site. While it’s definitely pretty culturally acceptable to have a dog off leash there, I’m not so sure it should be, especially in places such as children’s parks or near livestock etc. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/c9q9301541xt/dog-attacks https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/c9q9301541xt/dog-attacks
    - diggan 5y ago
      Strangely enough, most of those stories are about dogs attacking their own owners/families and seems to indicate the dogs were leashed in most stories.
      - dnh44 5y ago
        Coincidentally a friend of mine was just attacked and bit by a large Alsatian. Luckily he is mostly okay! The dog was on the lead (or leash for you American English speakers) at the time of the attack though.
- wheels 5y ago
  Three things: - Laws are virtually never there to regulate the median case. They're there to reduce the risk of harm. The reason we don't let people have automatic weapons isn't because most people would go on a killing spree if they had one, it's that a tiny minority would, and that would be disastrous. - It's literally only been just yesterday that I watched someone's "well behaved" dog attack my friend's dog on a leash. He had to pull the (probably 3x larger) dog off of his. My brother had stitches on his face from being bitten as a kid by someone's "well behaved" dog. I have zero faith in dog owners' ability to self-regulate. - I'm sure you have the one dog in the world that doesn't chase birds. Most dogs do. This is specifically about that case.
  - Enginerrrd 5y ago
    >- I'm sure you have the one dog in the world that doesn't chase birds. Most dogs do. This is specifically about that case. This really demonstrates your ignorance. Such dogs are not uncommon, particularly when well trained. My dog doesn't chase birds. She's a border collie that lives for frisbee and frisbee only. I taught her the herding maneuvers, but she does it lackadaisically and it's hard to get her to give eye to chickens. She's just not into it, but she'll humor me if I tell her to do it. Frisbee though... she is. And she can be at a dead sprint after a frisbee in flight and if I say "Stop" she'll stop on a dime. If the frisbee drifts off the field and into the street, she'll simply stop on the edge of the grass or sidewalk and wait for my ok to go get it without me saying anything. And my dog really isn't special. Honestly, she has been a difficult to train dog from day one, but she has still been trained. Her mother though... man she's a true pleasure to work with. I usually walk her off leash as well. When people ask me to put her on leash, I do, and I hold it with a loose pinky finger since it's kind of a joke because of how unneeded it is.
- spicyramen 5y ago
  I have a toddler and I absolutely hate people doing this. I don't know you nor your dog. Sometimes I go to the park and people assume we can read minds and let stranger dogs come close to us. Please leash your dog
- smcl 5y ago
  Strange you're getting so downvoted. While I am a dog owner (and therefore may have a bias) I don't think you've said anything wrong or even controversial. I've seen a lot of US-based people who cannot fathom the idea of a well-behaved dog being completely fine off-leash, so maybe this is why? I must say that in this sort of situation - an area near a nesting site - I absolutely agree a dog shouldn't be free to run around. But I imagine there are signs specifically warning people against doing that. There are areas here where I have to do the same, for example near areas where people hunt deer (a lot nearby) or where there are bears (only seen warnings in Slovakia). But outside of those areas, with an conscientious owner and an attentive, trained dog who listens to their owner - there's no reason not to unless it's someone who hasn't bothered training their dog.
  - asimpletune 5y ago
    It is totally counter to HN ethos to downvote a opinion you don’t agree with, and I’m disappointed others don’t give pause and ask themselves why they’re doing it first. All the responses in this thread have been cordial and relevant, so it is disappointing to see some of them met with this kind of silent disapproval, which is reserved for non-sequitors, those acting in bad faith, or impolite speech.
    - smcl 5y ago
      I'm particularly confused because this comment of mine is downvoted despite me agreeing with the idea that dogs should be leashed in these situations. But I understand - people get annoyed and irritated, and really it's just meaningless internet numbers at stake so it doesn't matter :)
  - bradleyjg 5y ago
    There are a lot of different dog cultures around the world and even within the US. In cities that have a lot of people from all over the country and world you end up with a lot of culture clashes. People do things that in the context they grew up in are totally reasonable and normal, but from someone else’s perspective seems uncomfortable or even dangerous. In theory municipal rules should harmonize, albeit with some people left unhappy, but it’s another American cultural quirk that some rules are widely ignored. But which ones is again a matter of geographic diversity.
- stephenhuey 5y ago
  You’re in the minority - too many dog owners think their dogs are fine and when their dog runs dozens of yards away from their master to bound up to us th egg cheerfully call out, “It’s a friendly dog!” Then they go on their merry way and I have to attend to my 2 crying toddlers. Maybe they only kicked my kids’ faces but sometimes they knock them down. I grew up with dogs in the 20th century - mine could obey and do tricks but I still didn’t make assumptions and grabbed them if we were in a situation like that. I don’t live out in the middle of nowhere - we’re in one of the largest cities in the USA and it’s illegal but dog owners think it’s a suggestion the way speeders on the road often do!
  - diggan 5y ago
    > You’re in the minority Yes, if I was in the USA maybe I would be in the minority. But where I actually live (Barcelona, Spain) I'm not, as mentioned before. Countless people walk their dogs without leashes here, and no one bats an eye. > too many dog owners think their dogs are fine and when their dog runs dozens of yards away from their master to bound up to us th egg cheerfully call out, “It’s a friendly dog!” Sure that might be a friendly dog but in no way is that a well-behaved dog, it wouldn't run away yards away unless the owner explicitly calls out for them to behave that way. Living in ~16th or something biggest city in Europe, you wouldn't have your dog stray that far away from you, easily within a yard of yourself at all time, otherwise I wouldn't call them well-behaved. So back to the original point: off-leash dogs that don't behave properly have inconsiderate owners, yes I agree with this. Are all owners who let their dogs be off-leash inconsiderate? No.
    - varjag 5y ago
      If they leave their dogs off leash in leash-only areas, YES, they are being inconsiderate.
- nanis 5y ago
  > They follow my command That's great, as it should be. However, the majority of dog owners I encounter are at the mercy of their dogs, they treat the dogs not as dogs but as humans and try to bargain with them. This is merely annoying when the dogs is a golden lab, but can be mortal when it is a "sweet" "rescue" pit. You are right though, it doesn't matter if the dog is on a leash because people also get these 30ft (10m) leashes and all of a sudden, out of nowhere, someone's dog is trying to "just show affection" to a toddler. So, the golden rule is not to get a dog if you can't be pack leader. A very bad proxy for a person being able to control a dog is the dog being on a "short leash"[1]. So, people go for that rule. Then you get the 100 lb jogger (45 kg) who attaches a Doberman with a breakaway clip to their shorts. [1]: https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/on+a+short+leash https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/on+a+short+leash
  - ptr2voidStar 5y ago
    >the majority of dog owners I encounter are at the mercy of their dogs, they treat the dogs not as dogs but as humans and try to bargain with them. The crux of the problem.
- mbrameld 5y ago
  > Both me and others without leashes are indistinctive from people who are using leashes. If this is true then you should have no problem putting a leash on them where it's required. By your own admission it wouldn't affect your activity.
  - diggan 5y ago
    Indeed, if I do end up in a situation where it's required, I'll do it, no questions asked. But for day-to-day walks, it's not so I don't, together with the rest of almost everyone we meet with dogs on our daily walks.
- vimax 5y ago
  To me the issue isn't generally having a dog off the leash, but specifically having a dog off the leash at a wildlife reserve where they may be running around disturbing the wildlife. It isn't a dog park.
  - nitrogen 5y ago
    Indeed, there are areas (such as some federal land, dog parks, etc.) that specifically do not require dogs to be leashed, by design and intent. People who want to avoid dogs should avoid those places, and people who want to walk dogs off-leash should favor them.
- glennpratt 5y ago
  Anecdata: ~ I've been bitten in the hand drawing blood by two different dogs (not mine). ~ My daughter had a large dog nipping her face while the owner laughed. ~ I have too different acquaintances that were mauled on their face pretty badly. All these dogs had owners nearby. I love dogs and have had one or more the majority of my life, but people are irresponsible and arrogant.
  - diggan 5y ago
    That's really bad and obviously badly behaved dogs you have interacted with. I hope in all cases they got fined properly for the disturbance and ill caused, and hopefully improved over time, although unlikely... > people are irresponsible and arrogant Agree! And it does harm that people are behaving that way, but that doesn't give me reason to limit people who are not irresponsible and arrogant. Yes, some things are dangerous to consume for example, and irresponsible people can make it worse for everyone by consuming those things, but I don't think we should outlaw those things just because of that.
    - Bud 5y ago
      Not a good analogy at all. You're comparing inanimate objects that people consume, entirely by choice, to an animal that can maim or kill others? Find a different rhetorical device, I'd say.
    - seattle_spring 5y ago
      I philosophically agree with you, but the reality on the ground on US trails is that many people (dog owners or not) do not observe rules or etiquette. Go on a hike near Seattle and you'll probably leave with a Drake song memorized from how many kids are blasting it on their Bluetooth speakers. The actual trail is sometimes indistinguishable from the switchback cuts people make. Even take some time looking at US centric comments on this site lately: even with respect to a global pandemic, people will vehemently put their own wants over the greater good of society or the environment. The only solution is heavy handed enforcement. It sucks but I don't see a better way.
- cratermoon 5y ago
  Every stereotype of the off-leash dog owner on display here. Leash your dog. To do otherwise is selfish and rude.
  - diggan 5y ago
    > Every stereotype of the off-leash dog owner on display here. The comment I responded to called me "extremely inconsiderate", "hostile" and "violent" while I'm neither of those things (well, "inconsiderate" when it comes to how I handle my dogs seems to be up for debate at least). Are those the stereotypes you mean are visible in my comment? > Leash your dog. To do otherwise is selfish and rude. Thank you for sharing your opinion but it does not help me understand WHY, which I why I made my initial comment in the first place. You have something to contribute, contribute. But re-iterating exactly the same piece of information as what I replied to without any sort of addition or effort does not help anyone in this discussion. If you want to explain why you feel that way, please do.
    - cratermoon 5y ago
      Are you familiar with the term "sea-lioning"?
      - diggan 5y ago
        I wasn't but now I am. It doesn't seem like something we should subject HN to, so if that's what you're doing you should probably stop sooner rather than later.
- Bud 5y ago
  This comment basically drips with a fundamental inability to see this situation from the other person's perspective. Even to see the most basic thing, which is that other people have no oracular powers with which to discern whether you or your dog are well-behaved.
  - diggan 5y ago
    > This comment basically drips with a fundamental inability to see this situation from the other person's perspective Well... I mean yeah, that's why I asked for more information in order to understand the other persons perspective, what do you think this discussion is about? In case you missed it, here is the part I explicitly call out that I don't understand their perspective but I would like to, so please educate me: > How is inconsiderate if the dogs themselves are behaving? Maybe there is something I'm missing, and I'd like to understand your point of view. I could understand you think it's inconsiderate if people don't have control on their dogs and they annoy others while the owners do nothing, then I agree with you. But just because of being off-leash? Not sure I understand that line of reasoning. If you have something to contribute that can further my understanding, I'd be most appreciative. > other people have no oracular powers with which to discern whether you or your dog are well-behaved. Yeah, this is true but applies in so many things in life. New friend introduced by my other friend? Not sure they are well-behaved or not, but I'll default to that they won't murder me, but if they give signs that they might want to kill me, I'd stay away or contact authorities. I think in general society is adjusting well to the possibility of judging things as they come along, instead of painting broad strokes like "people with dogs off-leash are extremely inconsiderate", at least where I live, not sure how things look where you live.
- foobiter 5y ago
  it’s inconsiderate because you’re forcing strangers to trust you in a situation where you could alternatively follow a simple rule… it also sets a bad example for people with poorly trained dogs. We live in a society, not everything is about you.
- capedape 5y ago
  This and even if they are behaving that can change anytime, especially in nature. This is coming from someone who just broke an elbow because of off leash dogs on a trail. Trail allowed bikes and dogs on leash. Dogs were on the side of the trail sniffing, caught wind of something else and immediately jumped in front of bike. I was going slow and watching them like a hawk. Dodged one and couldn’t the other. Owners were on a jog and literally ran off after asking if I was ok once. If the trail says keep dogs on leash , there might be a good reason.
  - badgley 5y ago
    https://slco.org/parks/millcreek-canyon/ https://slco.org/parks/millcreek-canyon/ there's a great hike just outside Salt Lake City that solves this problem by allowing bikes on even numbered days and off-leash dogs on odd numbered days
- abandonliberty 5y ago
  Why do you have to follow [law] if you don't cause a problem for others? Would you make the same reasonable question for driving double the speed limit, not wearing a seatbelt, or carrying a gun in public? "How is it inconsiderate if I carry a gun in public? I've never shot or threatened anyone! If I met someone who asked me to put my gun away, I would obviously do so." :) Societies work because we agree to give up a measure of our personal freedoms, even when it's sometimes a bit inconvenient for us.
  - diggan 5y ago
    Generally law officers here apply laws against civilians based on preventing harm to others. If you have a wine bottle in the park and a officer walks by, they most likely wouldn't do anything. If you're loud and obnoxious, they would do something as you're disturbing others. Seemingly the police here are of the view that most dogs don't pose a threat to others and are not annoying when off leash, as I haven't been confronted when walking next to them with my leashed dog. Carrying a gun would obviously not be OK here as it's strictly outlawed. If I went to the US, I would probably feel the same way that some feel against dogs here but regarding guns, so that's actually a good point, thank you.
- GekkePrutser 5y ago
  I have to agree, here in Barcelona there's no issues with dogs in general. People and dogs are well behaved. There is an issue with the police though, killing dogs unnecessarily. https://english.elpais.com/elpais/2018/12/20/inenglish/1545303649_028656.html https://english.elpais.com/elpais/2018/12/20/inenglish/15453...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
blamazon 5y ago
Typified in the viral ‘Central Park Birdwatching Incident.’ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Park_birdwatching_incident https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Park_birdwatching_in...
- tolbish 5y ago
  I'm guessing she blamed cancel culture and the woke left for losing her job/dog instead of blaming her racism and foolishly filing a false police report.
  - birdyrooster 5y ago
    White women been filing false police reports for decades, it’s one of their super powers in America.
  - afiori 5y ago
    From wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Park_birdwatching_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Park_birdwatching_inci... > Christian asked Amy to leash her dog, and she allegedly refused. By his own account, Christian then said, "Look, if you're going to do what you want, I'm going to do what I want, but you're not going to like it," and beckoned the dog toward him with a dog treat.[3] Amy then yelled, "Don't you touch my dog!"[3] Christian then began recording on his cellphone.[1][3] And the man post where he tells his own side of the story (the [3] in the wikipedia article): https://nypost.com/2020/05/26/christian-cooper-recounts-amy-cooper-incident-before-video-footage/ https://nypost.com/2020/05/26/christian-cooper-recounts-amy-... > “ME: All you have to do is take him to the other side of the drive, outside the Ramble, and you can let him run off leash all you want. > “HER: It’s too dangerous. > “ME: Look, if you’re going to do what you want, I’m going to do what I want, but you’re not going to like it. > “HER: What’s that? > “ME (to the dog): Come here, puppy! > “HER: He won’t come to you. > “ME: We’ll see about that…” before adding, “I pull out the dog treats I carry for just for such intransigence. I didn’t even get a chance to toss any treats to the pooch before Karen scrambled to grab the dog. > “HER: DON’T YOU TOUCH MY DOG!!!!! > “That’s when I started video recording with my iPhone, and when her inner Karen fully emerged and took a dark turn.. I have no interest in defending or accusing anyone nor in discussing whether her action in the video where motivated and/or reasonable. But to say that she had no basis to perceive this as threathing behaviour (`filing a false police report`) feels a bit of a stretch. PS: Obviously this topic can be seen from many angles, my response to you comment is almost entirely due to the "false" in "filing a false police report", had you substituted "racially motivated" this comment would be moot.
acomjean 5y ago
I live near a wildlife refuge. They allowed dogs on leash for many years. But fewer and fewer complied. About 5 years ago after trying all sorts of signage they banned dogs altogether. I feel bad for the small minority of dog owners who complied and kept their dogs on-leash
- globular-toast 5y ago
  What's the point of walking a dog on a leash, though? Dogs need to stretch their legs. They're supposed to run around. The underlying problem is people taking in animals as pets without taking the responsibility that should be required as a dog owner.
  - finiteseries 5y ago
    It’s a wildlife refuge, Brad.
    - wyager 5y ago
      His point is obviously that that is not an appropriate place to walk a dog at all.
      - finiteseries 5y ago
        Given the response, it’s obviously not.
        globular-toast 5y ago
        Given what response? It was my point.
        finiteseries 5y ago
        The dozen or so mistakenly angry replies and downvotes. If that is your point, it isn’t at all obvious from your comment.
FooBarBizBazz 5y ago
The dog, in this instance, is not sufficiently subject to the master-pet power relation for your comfort?
throwaway803453 5y ago
My last girlfriend picked me up in San Diego and we drove 6 hours to Tucson after we had been apart for about a month. During the drive with her two dogs she told me while I was away there was an incident where her dog mauled a smaller dog and then bit the owner's face when she bent over to rescue her small dog. Her take away was pride as she was smart enough to just run off with her dog implying an idiot like me would have stayed and taken responsibility. My response was there are two options, your dog either needs to be destroyed or never off leash again and we didn't discuss further. Then we stopped somewhere to take a break and she let her dogs run out of the car off leash. When my jaw dropped, she replied, "it's no problem, I don't see anyone around". So it's worse than getting "hostile" or "violent" as you mentioned. Many of these people never learn. You could sue them into oblivion and the take away would be they are the victim of an unjust world.
- sebmellen 5y ago
  Did that factor into the “last” prefix?
- adriancr 5y ago
  The other party can follow her to figure out where she lives or some car license plate, call the police and report incident. Once police get involved she will get fined and there is a risk that dogs get euthanised in some countries after biting someone... There is also a risk of someone hurting her dogs due to adrenaline...
- marvin 5y ago
  Don't know about the US, but in my jurisdiction, the dog would be killed by the police if it could be proved that it had bitten a human. There's very few exceptions to these rulings.
  - anonAndOn 5y ago
    It is the same in the US, thus why she picked up the dog and ran.
  - dathinab 5y ago
brandonmenc 5y ago
> they're also the type to get hostile and even violent if you say anything Or, they're the type who thinks everyone loves dogs and that you know their dog is just the sweetest thing ever. I live in Austin (which is ground zero for irresponsible dog owners) and I can't count the number of times some huge unleashed dog runs up on me out of nowhere, followed by their owner shouting "oh, he's really friendly!"
- fugfjj 5y ago
  Ground zero is Buenos Aires. Ive been to Austin. Its nice. In sure you have some very annoying dog owners. I grew up in BsAs. The city is a sidewalk of dog shit you have to avoid stepping on.
  - sonofhans 5y ago
    I’ve lived in both places. You’re totally right. Most Americans would be shocked at the level of public disruption dogs are allowed in many other places.
  - brandonmenc 5y ago
    I'm not talking about stray dogs.
    - YinzerNxtDoor 5y ago
      Neither is he
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago
My father told me a story of a man walking in a park one day when an unleashed dog walked up to him. The man took out his handgun and shot it.
- kodah 5y ago
  Thankfully this is a felony in at least some states now. > My father told me a story of a man walking in a park one day when an unleashed dog walked up to him. The man took out his handgun and shot it. Not a threatening dog, just a fucking dog walking up to somebody. This is a disgusting line of thought that anyone would take a life purely based on an animal approaching you. It makes me question my involvement in a community where people are so unhinged they think taking out a gun and shooting someone's random dog is appropriate. How far we've come from To Kill a Mockingbird is astounding. I think I am done with this place. What a disappointing thread.
  - fugfjj 5y ago
    Why thankfully? An unleashed dog comes up to you where its not supposed to. - What are its intentions? - Is it aggressive? - Is it rabid? Its no different than if a coyote came up and accosted you. Worse, because dogs are socialized not to fear man. My neighbor had an aggressive dog (german shepherd) and every time my kid was outside in the backyard I made sure to carry a weapon to kill it if need be. It didn't really matter, my kid was too scared of it to play in the backyard. I was planning on calling the city to have it destroyed but she moved out. And for all you down voters... yes I talked to her. It was obvious talking with her where the dog got its attitude from.
    - kodah 5y ago
      You have effectively picked the worst sample of dogs, and established a standard that a human being may take a life based on that standard. Dogs have tells too, and there's common ones that most dog owners will know: - ears backed with tail tucked or quick wagging - cowering / laying down (in a non-relaxed posture) - deep growls and a leg spread defensive stance And there's tells that occur far before the above. Dogs are domesticated animals (with millions of years of domestication, as opposed to cats), so comparing them in your head to a coyote is a false dichotomy from the get-go. Your situation and GPs are very different. GP has specifically framed a dog that walked up to them off-leash. You are talking about having to potentially defend a child's life. There's a massive chasm between the two both legally and ethically.
kodah 5y ago
I've not witnessed this hostility or violence, but as with all things there's probably some tiny fraction of the population that motivates comments like this one. I have had non-dog owners speak pretty nastily to me, whether it's about my dog doing something natural (like defecating, which I carry bags for) or not realizing that areas are off-leash. I typically find the latter when I go camping (though there are certainly trails and campgrounds that are non-off leash this usually isn't about the dog itself, but the presence of predatory or endangered wildlife). As a responsible dog owner, I check the beaches I'm going to, I check the parks (including trails and campgrounds) I go to, my dog is harnessed rather than collared, and my dog is properly socialized for both humans and animals (cats too!)
rcpt 5y ago
It's out of control in Santa Cruz. Can't even take small kids to the local beaches without risking a mailing. I don't know why California is so lax about this. Other states I've lived in actually enforced dog laws.
anonAndOn 5y ago
Many are often also surprised that their off-leash little companion suddenly wants chase me and go for my ankle as I bicycle past. I've had a couple narrow misses by sprinting away but as I age I'm becoming more willing to properly repel an attack. PSA: Please keep your dog away from cyclists.
- wott 5y ago
  There is perhaps worse than off-leash: on a bloody 16 feet retractable leash, with the dog on one side of the road, and the owner on the other side... So called "retractable", because you cannot pull anything. A friend suffered a bicycle crash and killed a dog like that. I can see from my place all the time the same situation waiting to happen, with women busy chatting on one side, and not caring at all about where the dog goes. When I had to walk the dog of a former girlfriend on a road/street side, I always took the short, fixed leash, and in places where room was scarce, I even kept my second hand further on the leash to be able to shorten it quickly if needed. Just a couple of days ago, a bit different situations. I was cycling uphill on a small road, and there was a woman (it's almost always a woman, in fact) with a dog at her feet on the right of the road. I prepared to move a bit to the left to give them space while taking over. But the dog started coming to me (not aggressively), and the woman let the leash unroll, and unroll, and unroll. She never stopped it, but started yelling: not at the dog to call it back (which has a dubious success rate in general but shows a little bit of conscience at least), but at me! She was telling me to slow down, that I was crazy and dangerous. I said it was uphill, and I suck at climbing, so I was cycling at the ridiculous speed of 5 mph (yes, five)... And I was now on the opposite side of the road. It's a very bad idea to yell at me, it makes me completely snap, so the result was not what she expected. Coming back to off-leash, I was bitten in the calf while riding last year by two dogs (so far dogs had only gone for my trousers, but this time they went through the trouser, through the sock, and through the skin). The owner was standing 10 yards away, he didn't do or say anything. He didn't give a damn. In the little "discussion" had with the cretin, he kept claiming his dogs do not bite... while they were biting and pulling my trouser again... At no point he tried to regain control of his dogs. As it should be done, I reported it to the Mayor, who MUST take measures: here, there is no immediate death penalty for such behaviour, but the Mayor MUST make sure the dog should first be sent to a vet for behavioural examination. She didn't do anything. At my place, there are plenty of dogs loose all day long. The (French) law is lax, but even the few restrictions are never enforced. They shit and dig holes in people's open gardens, they occasionally attack and sometimes kill other people's pets (dogs and cats). Then you have shepherds dogs, who attack cyclists and occasionally pedestrians, even on public roads (and it's not a matter of protection, these bastards generally attack people in the back, after they have passed by); often farmers' dogs haven't been trained at all, or in the case of livestock farmers only trained to one purpose and the relation with humans was not part of it. When I was living in another country, dogs were never loose: either in a fenced yard, or on a leash ; whether they were pet dogs, shepherds dogs, sledge dogs or whatever type of dog and dog owner you may imagine. But over here people will tell you this is impossible. Gee... There are plenty of dogs these days. Cats are even worse, it is a proliferation (their number was multiplied by 2 or 3 in a few decades, IIRC), and due to their nature, they are even less kept under control. Luckily, they are also less a danger to humans, but they are worse about gardens, because contrarily to dogs, they ignore fences :-) It's like everyone wants to own a pet for the fun side, but the negative externalities are for others to undergo. Of course I don't do justice to the owners who care and pay attention, they do exist :-) but of course the others are more noticeable.
dghughes 5y ago
There's a new fenced dog park near me. Lately people have been going there but letting their dogs off leash in the filed next to the park. There are many new homes and lots of kids in the area. It's maddening.

diggan 5y ago

I frequently walk my dogs without leash. They follow my command, don't disturb other people or dogs unless both parties engage and generally I don't do anything that someone who has a leash wouldn't be doing. They also walk side-by-side with me when off-leash. This is very common in the city I live and surrounding area (Barcelona, Spain and Catalunya). Both me and others without leashes are indistinctive from people who are using leashes. How is inconsiderate if the dogs themselves are behaving? Maybe there is something I'm missing, and I'd like to understand your point of view. I could understand you think it's inconsiderate if people don't have control on their dogs and they annoy others while the owners do nothing, then I agree with you. But just because of being off-leash? Not sure I understand that line of reasoning. Edit: Just to clarify further, if I did meet someone who asks me to leash my dog I would obviously do so without hostility or violence. In my ~6 years of having dogs in Barcelona, that has yet to happen even once.

tomjen3 5y ago
The wast majority of dogs that aren't leashed should be. If I encounter your dogs I can't know if they are one of the handful out of a hundred who are totally safe to keep off leash, or not. I can also not know if they are mostly fine off leash but react badly to bicyclists, other dogs or whatever. So when I encounter them I have to assume you are not a reponsible dog owner.
blamazon 5y ago
> How is it inconsiderate if the dogs themselves are behaving? This is the problem right here. We have no idea whether your dogs are properly trained or not. There is no certification or regulation for having a dog off leash. We have no idea if they’re going to suddenly snap and, in the worst case scenario, viciously attack a baby, something they are biologically quite capable of. It is probably different in collectivist societies where folks consider proper training a prerequisite to going off-leash, but where I’m from we have a scourge of ignorant owners who are not in control of their dogs. They ruin it for everybody.
- diggan 5y ago
  > We have no idea whether your dogs are properly trained or not I think the assumption is, at least from mine and others like me, is that if your dog is off-leash, you can handle your dog off-leash. The same if you bring friends to some social event, you wouldn't bring them if you can't handle them and they can behave in public. I'm not afraid they are gonna attack me, although sometimes humans do attack other humans, most of them are fine so no need to worry in general. > but where I’m from we have a scourge of ignorant owners who are not in control of their dogs. They ruin it for everybody. Yes, I agree, it's terrible when owners have no control over their dogs. But that's not relevant to the leash itself, that's relevant to the expertise of the owner. Dogs on leashes misbehave as well, and can easily (if wanted and the owner is a terrible one) unleash themselves by either raw power or the owner not paying attention.
  - TomVDB 5y ago
    > The same if you bring friends to some social event, you wouldn't bring them if you can't handle them and they can behave in public. No, this is not the same. You are legally responsible for the behavior of your dog.
    - musingsole 5y ago
      The legal responsibility angle of this all always leave my head spinning. If you let your dog off leash in a place where it is illegal to do so, congratulations: you've just lost the lawsuit. If anything remotely funny happens -- regardless of what -- the liability can and will fall on the dog-owner for their reckless behavior. The real sad part of this is when the dog gets put down for the stupid owner...but my point is the people who let their dogs off leash have also posted a big, red sign saying "I'm responsible for anything happening here" -- even though few of them seem aware of that fact. Liability only becomes a question again if there is another dog-owner with their dog off leash.
    - wang_li 5y ago
      Dogs should be treated like guns and other weapons. If a person gets a fine or jail time for shooting someone, a dog owner should get the same if their dog bites someone. If my gun would be taken away if I rubbed it in someone's crotch, then a dog should be taken away if it sticks its snout in someone's crotch. Perhaps one would say "it's not the owner's fault, the dog makes it's own decisions", well that makes it worse. my gun doesn't aim and fire itself. So maybe dogs should be regulated even more than guns.
asimpletune 5y ago
Do we just downvote people now who contradict the majority’s opinion? As far as I can say this adds to the discussion. Someone literally said people who don’t have their dogs on leashes are prone to violent confrontations. Then someone else retorted this is not the case for them and asked for elaboration to better understand their interlocutor’s point of view. We should not be abusing downvote privilegies by discouraging viewpoints that we disagree with, when these viewpoints are relevant to the discussion. In the long run that will be harmful to ths community here and the next generation of hackers will go to different forums, or, worse, learn from our example.
- randompwd 5y ago
  Meta comments do not belong.
totalZero 5y ago
I'm not the GP but I'd like to comment on this because it's an interesting question. Some people are afraid of dogs. Others come from cultures where dogs are considered ritually unclean. And no stranger can verify just by a glance that your dogs will behave themselves. To take the third point to its logical extreme, imagine a town where police wear street clothes and openly carry firearms. You, a visitor, cannot determine by observation alone that they are all highly trained officers of the law. You simply see people with firearms. That could be unsettling, despite the fact that the presence of those people actually makes you safer. I suppose that if everyone is walking their dogs without a leash, it's not really an issue because the culture has adapted to that practice.
- foobiekr 5y ago
  I have a friend whose pet dog killed one of his other pets, is known to growl at children, and to me seems genuinely dangerous. Friend insists that the dog is a good boy and wouldn’t ever hurt anything. Friend insists dog loves children. Friend is an intelligent, gregarious, kind hearted tech worker. He’s also completely delusional and in denial about his dangerous, demonstrably violent pit bull. Friend routinely takes dog off leash in places where that is not permitted. This is the problem.
CJefferson 5y ago
The problem is I don't know your dogs are well controlled. I've been bitten twice over the last year by leashless dogs. This could of course be solved by introducing stiff penalties for owners of unleashed dogs who bite -- how about a fixed 10,000 dollar fine?
- ptr2voidStar 5y ago
  >introducing stiff penalties for owners of unleashed dogs who bite -- how about a fixed 10,000 dollar fine? If such a law were ever to be passed, something tells me a lot of people with "well behaved" dogs would suddenly start to leash their dogs "just in case". Humans are very predictable in that fashion.
deleted 5y ago
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patcon 5y ago
Laws are about enforceability, not individual outcomes. Your doing what you're doing stabilizes a culture where there can be no consequences for anyone in this domain, because there's no clear line of enforcement. What's a low-wage enforcement officer expected to do in this context you advocate, where people "mind their own dog's abilities" and only get fined when some clear violation occurs? Are they supposed to fine people only when they see dogs chasing birds, or scarring a fearful child, or jumping up on an elderly person, or any number of other things with unclear lines? No, you just outlaw dogs off-leash, and allow the $20/h enforcement officer to clearly execute their pro-social task. The anti-social behavior get fined.
- admax88q 5y ago
  So basically the parties that are actually the problem are too hard to find, so we target everyone who fits into a similar category.
  - bradleyjg 5y ago
    Yes, because we don’t have infinite enforcement resources we need to decide if we are going to prioritize type I errors or type II. Given the balance of harms minimizing type II errors (i.e. requiring leashes where they aren’t necessary) seems the better choice.
- diggan 5y ago
  To be fair, walking your dogs without a leash in the city of Barcelona is already illegal. You can walk past the police and they won't do anything though, unless your dog is not behaving, then they'll use the law to give you a fine for not having a leash. So while it's setup like you say it is, in theory, what you think cannot happen is what happens in practice. Same with public drinking and other laws. The police usually look the other way unless you are abusing it somehow, being too drunk, loud or otherwise annoying. Sitting in the park with a bottle of wine is fine and won't end up with you getting a ticket, even though it's illegal. At worst they'll tell you to stop whatever you're doing, and if you follow their command, that's the end of the situation. Maybe the big difference here between law officers in Spain (Barcelona at least) and wherever you're based, is how strict they actually enforce the laws. Here is maybe a bit laxer, which also fits in with the whole culture here, and it's represented in how law officers behave as well.
dnh44 5y ago
Walking dogs off lead is totally normal in the UK as well.
- giobox 5y ago
  Dog attacks are common enough in the U.K. to be a topic you can subscribe to on the BBC news site. While it’s definitely pretty culturally acceptable to have a dog off leash there, I’m not so sure it should be, especially in places such as children’s parks or near livestock etc. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/c9q9301541xt/dog-attacks https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/c9q9301541xt/dog-attacks
  - diggan 5y ago
    Strangely enough, most of those stories are about dogs attacking their own owners/families and seems to indicate the dogs were leashed in most stories.
    - dnh44 5y ago
      Coincidentally a friend of mine was just attacked and bit by a large Alsatian. Luckily he is mostly okay! The dog was on the lead (or leash for you American English speakers) at the time of the attack though.
wheels 5y ago
Three things: - Laws are virtually never there to regulate the median case. They're there to reduce the risk of harm. The reason we don't let people have automatic weapons isn't because most people would go on a killing spree if they had one, it's that a tiny minority would, and that would be disastrous. - It's literally only been just yesterday that I watched someone's "well behaved" dog attack my friend's dog on a leash. He had to pull the (probably 3x larger) dog off of his. My brother had stitches on his face from being bitten as a kid by someone's "well behaved" dog. I have zero faith in dog owners' ability to self-regulate. - I'm sure you have the one dog in the world that doesn't chase birds. Most dogs do. This is specifically about that case.
- Enginerrrd 5y ago
  >- I'm sure you have the one dog in the world that doesn't chase birds. Most dogs do. This is specifically about that case. This really demonstrates your ignorance. Such dogs are not uncommon, particularly when well trained. My dog doesn't chase birds. She's a border collie that lives for frisbee and frisbee only. I taught her the herding maneuvers, but she does it lackadaisically and it's hard to get her to give eye to chickens. She's just not into it, but she'll humor me if I tell her to do it. Frisbee though... she is. And she can be at a dead sprint after a frisbee in flight and if I say "Stop" she'll stop on a dime. If the frisbee drifts off the field and into the street, she'll simply stop on the edge of the grass or sidewalk and wait for my ok to go get it without me saying anything. And my dog really isn't special. Honestly, she has been a difficult to train dog from day one, but she has still been trained. Her mother though... man she's a true pleasure to work with. I usually walk her off leash as well. When people ask me to put her on leash, I do, and I hold it with a loose pinky finger since it's kind of a joke because of how unneeded it is.
spicyramen 5y ago
I have a toddler and I absolutely hate people doing this. I don't know you nor your dog. Sometimes I go to the park and people assume we can read minds and let stranger dogs come close to us. Please leash your dog
smcl 5y ago
Strange you're getting so downvoted. While I am a dog owner (and therefore may have a bias) I don't think you've said anything wrong or even controversial. I've seen a lot of US-based people who cannot fathom the idea of a well-behaved dog being completely fine off-leash, so maybe this is why? I must say that in this sort of situation - an area near a nesting site - I absolutely agree a dog shouldn't be free to run around. But I imagine there are signs specifically warning people against doing that. There are areas here where I have to do the same, for example near areas where people hunt deer (a lot nearby) or where there are bears (only seen warnings in Slovakia). But outside of those areas, with an conscientious owner and an attentive, trained dog who listens to their owner - there's no reason not to unless it's someone who hasn't bothered training their dog.
- asimpletune 5y ago
  It is totally counter to HN ethos to downvote a opinion you don’t agree with, and I’m disappointed others don’t give pause and ask themselves why they’re doing it first. All the responses in this thread have been cordial and relevant, so it is disappointing to see some of them met with this kind of silent disapproval, which is reserved for non-sequitors, those acting in bad faith, or impolite speech.
  - smcl 5y ago
    I'm particularly confused because this comment of mine is downvoted despite me agreeing with the idea that dogs should be leashed in these situations. But I understand - people get annoyed and irritated, and really it's just meaningless internet numbers at stake so it doesn't matter :)
- bradleyjg 5y ago
  There are a lot of different dog cultures around the world and even within the US. In cities that have a lot of people from all over the country and world you end up with a lot of culture clashes. People do things that in the context they grew up in are totally reasonable and normal, but from someone else’s perspective seems uncomfortable or even dangerous. In theory municipal rules should harmonize, albeit with some people left unhappy, but it’s another American cultural quirk that some rules are widely ignored. But which ones is again a matter of geographic diversity.
stephenhuey 5y ago
You’re in the minority - too many dog owners think their dogs are fine and when their dog runs dozens of yards away from their master to bound up to us th egg cheerfully call out, “It’s a friendly dog!” Then they go on their merry way and I have to attend to my 2 crying toddlers. Maybe they only kicked my kids’ faces but sometimes they knock them down. I grew up with dogs in the 20th century - mine could obey and do tricks but I still didn’t make assumptions and grabbed them if we were in a situation like that. I don’t live out in the middle of nowhere - we’re in one of the largest cities in the USA and it’s illegal but dog owners think it’s a suggestion the way speeders on the road often do!
- diggan 5y ago
  > You’re in the minority Yes, if I was in the USA maybe I would be in the minority. But where I actually live (Barcelona, Spain) I'm not, as mentioned before. Countless people walk their dogs without leashes here, and no one bats an eye. > too many dog owners think their dogs are fine and when their dog runs dozens of yards away from their master to bound up to us th egg cheerfully call out, “It’s a friendly dog!” Sure that might be a friendly dog but in no way is that a well-behaved dog, it wouldn't run away yards away unless the owner explicitly calls out for them to behave that way. Living in ~16th or something biggest city in Europe, you wouldn't have your dog stray that far away from you, easily within a yard of yourself at all time, otherwise I wouldn't call them well-behaved. So back to the original point: off-leash dogs that don't behave properly have inconsiderate owners, yes I agree with this. Are all owners who let their dogs be off-leash inconsiderate? No.
  - varjag 5y ago
    If they leave their dogs off leash in leash-only areas, YES, they are being inconsiderate.
nanis 5y ago
> They follow my command That's great, as it should be. However, the majority of dog owners I encounter are at the mercy of their dogs, they treat the dogs not as dogs but as humans and try to bargain with them. This is merely annoying when the dogs is a golden lab, but can be mortal when it is a "sweet" "rescue" pit. You are right though, it doesn't matter if the dog is on a leash because people also get these 30ft (10m) leashes and all of a sudden, out of nowhere, someone's dog is trying to "just show affection" to a toddler. So, the golden rule is not to get a dog if you can't be pack leader. A very bad proxy for a person being able to control a dog is the dog being on a "short leash"[1]. So, people go for that rule. Then you get the 100 lb jogger (45 kg) who attaches a Doberman with a breakaway clip to their shorts. [1]: https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/on+a+short+leash https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/on+a+short+leash
- ptr2voidStar 5y ago
  >the majority of dog owners I encounter are at the mercy of their dogs, they treat the dogs not as dogs but as humans and try to bargain with them. The crux of the problem.
mbrameld 5y ago
> Both me and others without leashes are indistinctive from people who are using leashes. If this is true then you should have no problem putting a leash on them where it's required. By your own admission it wouldn't affect your activity.
- diggan 5y ago
  Indeed, if I do end up in a situation where it's required, I'll do it, no questions asked. But for day-to-day walks, it's not so I don't, together with the rest of almost everyone we meet with dogs on our daily walks.
vimax 5y ago
To me the issue isn't generally having a dog off the leash, but specifically having a dog off the leash at a wildlife reserve where they may be running around disturbing the wildlife. It isn't a dog park.
- nitrogen 5y ago
  Indeed, there are areas (such as some federal land, dog parks, etc.) that specifically do not require dogs to be leashed, by design and intent. People who want to avoid dogs should avoid those places, and people who want to walk dogs off-leash should favor them.
glennpratt 5y ago
Anecdata: ~ I've been bitten in the hand drawing blood by two different dogs (not mine). ~ My daughter had a large dog nipping her face while the owner laughed. ~ I have too different acquaintances that were mauled on their face pretty badly. All these dogs had owners nearby. I love dogs and have had one or more the majority of my life, but people are irresponsible and arrogant.
- diggan 5y ago
  That's really bad and obviously badly behaved dogs you have interacted with. I hope in all cases they got fined properly for the disturbance and ill caused, and hopefully improved over time, although unlikely... > people are irresponsible and arrogant Agree! And it does harm that people are behaving that way, but that doesn't give me reason to limit people who are not irresponsible and arrogant. Yes, some things are dangerous to consume for example, and irresponsible people can make it worse for everyone by consuming those things, but I don't think we should outlaw those things just because of that.
  - Bud 5y ago
    Not a good analogy at all. You're comparing inanimate objects that people consume, entirely by choice, to an animal that can maim or kill others? Find a different rhetorical device, I'd say.
  - seattle_spring 5y ago
    I philosophically agree with you, but the reality on the ground on US trails is that many people (dog owners or not) do not observe rules or etiquette. Go on a hike near Seattle and you'll probably leave with a Drake song memorized from how many kids are blasting it on their Bluetooth speakers. The actual trail is sometimes indistinguishable from the switchback cuts people make. Even take some time looking at US centric comments on this site lately: even with respect to a global pandemic, people will vehemently put their own wants over the greater good of society or the environment. The only solution is heavy handed enforcement. It sucks but I don't see a better way.
cratermoon 5y ago
Every stereotype of the off-leash dog owner on display here. Leash your dog. To do otherwise is selfish and rude.
- diggan 5y ago
  > Every stereotype of the off-leash dog owner on display here. The comment I responded to called me "extremely inconsiderate", "hostile" and "violent" while I'm neither of those things (well, "inconsiderate" when it comes to how I handle my dogs seems to be up for debate at least). Are those the stereotypes you mean are visible in my comment? > Leash your dog. To do otherwise is selfish and rude. Thank you for sharing your opinion but it does not help me understand WHY, which I why I made my initial comment in the first place. You have something to contribute, contribute. But re-iterating exactly the same piece of information as what I replied to without any sort of addition or effort does not help anyone in this discussion. If you want to explain why you feel that way, please do.
  - cratermoon 5y ago
    Are you familiar with the term "sea-lioning"?
    - diggan 5y ago
      I wasn't but now I am. It doesn't seem like something we should subject HN to, so if that's what you're doing you should probably stop sooner rather than later.
Bud 5y ago
This comment basically drips with a fundamental inability to see this situation from the other person's perspective. Even to see the most basic thing, which is that other people have no oracular powers with which to discern whether you or your dog are well-behaved.
- diggan 5y ago
  > This comment basically drips with a fundamental inability to see this situation from the other person's perspective Well... I mean yeah, that's why I asked for more information in order to understand the other persons perspective, what do you think this discussion is about? In case you missed it, here is the part I explicitly call out that I don't understand their perspective but I would like to, so please educate me: > How is inconsiderate if the dogs themselves are behaving? Maybe there is something I'm missing, and I'd like to understand your point of view. I could understand you think it's inconsiderate if people don't have control on their dogs and they annoy others while the owners do nothing, then I agree with you. But just because of being off-leash? Not sure I understand that line of reasoning. If you have something to contribute that can further my understanding, I'd be most appreciative. > other people have no oracular powers with which to discern whether you or your dog are well-behaved. Yeah, this is true but applies in so many things in life. New friend introduced by my other friend? Not sure they are well-behaved or not, but I'll default to that they won't murder me, but if they give signs that they might want to kill me, I'd stay away or contact authorities. I think in general society is adjusting well to the possibility of judging things as they come along, instead of painting broad strokes like "people with dogs off-leash are extremely inconsiderate", at least where I live, not sure how things look where you live.
foobiter 5y ago
it’s inconsiderate because you’re forcing strangers to trust you in a situation where you could alternatively follow a simple rule… it also sets a bad example for people with poorly trained dogs. We live in a society, not everything is about you.
capedape 5y ago
This and even if they are behaving that can change anytime, especially in nature. This is coming from someone who just broke an elbow because of off leash dogs on a trail. Trail allowed bikes and dogs on leash. Dogs were on the side of the trail sniffing, caught wind of something else and immediately jumped in front of bike. I was going slow and watching them like a hawk. Dodged one and couldn’t the other. Owners were on a jog and literally ran off after asking if I was ok once. If the trail says keep dogs on leash , there might be a good reason.
- badgley 5y ago
  https://slco.org/parks/millcreek-canyon/ https://slco.org/parks/millcreek-canyon/ there's a great hike just outside Salt Lake City that solves this problem by allowing bikes on even numbered days and off-leash dogs on odd numbered days
abandonliberty 5y ago
Why do you have to follow [law] if you don't cause a problem for others? Would you make the same reasonable question for driving double the speed limit, not wearing a seatbelt, or carrying a gun in public? "How is it inconsiderate if I carry a gun in public? I've never shot or threatened anyone! If I met someone who asked me to put my gun away, I would obviously do so." :) Societies work because we agree to give up a measure of our personal freedoms, even when it's sometimes a bit inconvenient for us.
- diggan 5y ago
  Generally law officers here apply laws against civilians based on preventing harm to others. If you have a wine bottle in the park and a officer walks by, they most likely wouldn't do anything. If you're loud and obnoxious, they would do something as you're disturbing others. Seemingly the police here are of the view that most dogs don't pose a threat to others and are not annoying when off leash, as I haven't been confronted when walking next to them with my leashed dog. Carrying a gun would obviously not be OK here as it's strictly outlawed. If I went to the US, I would probably feel the same way that some feel against dogs here but regarding guns, so that's actually a good point, thank you.
GekkePrutser 5y ago
I have to agree, here in Barcelona there's no issues with dogs in general. People and dogs are well behaved. There is an issue with the police though, killing dogs unnecessarily. https://english.elpais.com/elpais/2018/12/20/inenglish/1545303649_028656.html https://english.elpais.com/elpais/2018/12/20/inenglish/15453...
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blamazon 5y ago

Typified in the viral ‘Central Park Birdwatching Incident.’ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Park_birdwatching_incident https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Park_birdwatching_in...

tolbish 5y ago
I'm guessing she blamed cancel culture and the woke left for losing her job/dog instead of blaming her racism and foolishly filing a false police report.
- birdyrooster 5y ago
  White women been filing false police reports for decades, it’s one of their super powers in America.
- afiori 5y ago
  From wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Park_birdwatching_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Park_birdwatching_inci... > Christian asked Amy to leash her dog, and she allegedly refused. By his own account, Christian then said, "Look, if you're going to do what you want, I'm going to do what I want, but you're not going to like it," and beckoned the dog toward him with a dog treat.[3] Amy then yelled, "Don't you touch my dog!"[3] Christian then began recording on his cellphone.[1][3] And the man post where he tells his own side of the story (the [3] in the wikipedia article): https://nypost.com/2020/05/26/christian-cooper-recounts-amy-cooper-incident-before-video-footage/ https://nypost.com/2020/05/26/christian-cooper-recounts-amy-... > “ME: All you have to do is take him to the other side of the drive, outside the Ramble, and you can let him run off leash all you want. > “HER: It’s too dangerous. > “ME: Look, if you’re going to do what you want, I’m going to do what I want, but you’re not going to like it. > “HER: What’s that? > “ME (to the dog): Come here, puppy! > “HER: He won’t come to you. > “ME: We’ll see about that…” before adding, “I pull out the dog treats I carry for just for such intransigence. I didn’t even get a chance to toss any treats to the pooch before Karen scrambled to grab the dog. > “HER: DON’T YOU TOUCH MY DOG!!!!! > “That’s when I started video recording with my iPhone, and when her inner Karen fully emerged and took a dark turn.. I have no interest in defending or accusing anyone nor in discussing whether her action in the video where motivated and/or reasonable. But to say that she had no basis to perceive this as threathing behaviour (`filing a false police report`) feels a bit of a stretch. PS: Obviously this topic can be seen from many angles, my response to you comment is almost entirely due to the "false" in "filing a false police report", had you substituted "racially motivated" this comment would be moot.

acomjean 5y ago

I live near a wildlife refuge. They allowed dogs on leash for many years. But fewer and fewer complied. About 5 years ago after trying all sorts of signage they banned dogs altogether. I feel bad for the small minority of dog owners who complied and kept their dogs on-leash

globular-toast 5y ago
What's the point of walking a dog on a leash, though? Dogs need to stretch their legs. They're supposed to run around. The underlying problem is people taking in animals as pets without taking the responsibility that should be required as a dog owner.
- finiteseries 5y ago
  It’s a wildlife refuge, Brad.
  - wyager 5y ago
    His point is obviously that that is not an appropriate place to walk a dog at all.
    - finiteseries 5y ago
      Given the response, it’s obviously not.
      - globular-toast 5y ago
        Given what response? It was my point.
        finiteseries 5y ago
        The dozen or so mistakenly angry replies and downvotes. If that is your point, it isn’t at all obvious from your comment.

FooBarBizBazz 5y ago

The dog, in this instance, is not sufficiently subject to the master-pet power relation for your comfort?

throwaway803453 5y ago

My last girlfriend picked me up in San Diego and we drove 6 hours to Tucson after we had been apart for about a month. During the drive with her two dogs she told me while I was away there was an incident where her dog mauled a smaller dog and then bit the owner's face when she bent over to rescue her small dog. Her take away was pride as she was smart enough to just run off with her dog implying an idiot like me would have stayed and taken responsibility. My response was there are two options, your dog either needs to be destroyed or never off leash again and we didn't discuss further. Then we stopped somewhere to take a break and she let her dogs run out of the car off leash. When my jaw dropped, she replied, "it's no problem, I don't see anyone around". So it's worse than getting "hostile" or "violent" as you mentioned. Many of these people never learn. You could sue them into oblivion and the take away would be they are the victim of an unjust world.

sebmellen 5y ago
Did that factor into the “last” prefix?
adriancr 5y ago
The other party can follow her to figure out where she lives or some car license plate, call the police and report incident. Once police get involved she will get fined and there is a risk that dogs get euthanised in some countries after biting someone... There is also a risk of someone hurting her dogs due to adrenaline...
marvin 5y ago
Don't know about the US, but in my jurisdiction, the dog would be killed by the police if it could be proved that it had bitten a human. There's very few exceptions to these rulings.
- anonAndOn 5y ago
  It is the same in the US, thus why she picked up the dog and ran.
- dathinab 5y ago

brandonmenc 5y ago

> they're also the type to get hostile and even violent if you say anything Or, they're the type who thinks everyone loves dogs and that you know their dog is just the sweetest thing ever. I live in Austin (which is ground zero for irresponsible dog owners) and I can't count the number of times some huge unleashed dog runs up on me out of nowhere, followed by their owner shouting "oh, he's really friendly!"

fugfjj 5y ago
Ground zero is Buenos Aires. Ive been to Austin. Its nice. In sure you have some very annoying dog owners. I grew up in BsAs. The city is a sidewalk of dog shit you have to avoid stepping on.
- sonofhans 5y ago
  I’ve lived in both places. You’re totally right. Most Americans would be shocked at the level of public disruption dogs are allowed in many other places.
- brandonmenc 5y ago
  I'm not talking about stray dogs.
  - YinzerNxtDoor 5y ago
    Neither is he

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2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago

My father told me a story of a man walking in a park one day when an unleashed dog walked up to him. The man took out his handgun and shot it.

kodah 5y ago
Thankfully this is a felony in at least some states now. > My father told me a story of a man walking in a park one day when an unleashed dog walked up to him. The man took out his handgun and shot it. Not a threatening dog, just a fucking dog walking up to somebody. This is a disgusting line of thought that anyone would take a life purely based on an animal approaching you. It makes me question my involvement in a community where people are so unhinged they think taking out a gun and shooting someone's random dog is appropriate. How far we've come from To Kill a Mockingbird is astounding. I think I am done with this place. What a disappointing thread.
- fugfjj 5y ago
  Why thankfully? An unleashed dog comes up to you where its not supposed to. - What are its intentions? - Is it aggressive? - Is it rabid? Its no different than if a coyote came up and accosted you. Worse, because dogs are socialized not to fear man. My neighbor had an aggressive dog (german shepherd) and every time my kid was outside in the backyard I made sure to carry a weapon to kill it if need be. It didn't really matter, my kid was too scared of it to play in the backyard. I was planning on calling the city to have it destroyed but she moved out. And for all you down voters... yes I talked to her. It was obvious talking with her where the dog got its attitude from.
  - kodah 5y ago
    You have effectively picked the worst sample of dogs, and established a standard that a human being may take a life based on that standard. Dogs have tells too, and there's common ones that most dog owners will know: - ears backed with tail tucked or quick wagging - cowering / laying down (in a non-relaxed posture) - deep growls and a leg spread defensive stance And there's tells that occur far before the above. Dogs are domesticated animals (with millions of years of domestication, as opposed to cats), so comparing them in your head to a coyote is a false dichotomy from the get-go. Your situation and GPs are very different. GP has specifically framed a dog that walked up to them off-leash. You are talking about having to potentially defend a child's life. There's a massive chasm between the two both legally and ethically.

kodah 5y ago

I've not witnessed this hostility or violence, but as with all things there's probably some tiny fraction of the population that motivates comments like this one. I have had non-dog owners speak pretty nastily to me, whether it's about my dog doing something natural (like defecating, which I carry bags for) or not realizing that areas are off-leash. I typically find the latter when I go camping (though there are certainly trails and campgrounds that are non-off leash this usually isn't about the dog itself, but the presence of predatory or endangered wildlife). As a responsible dog owner, I check the beaches I'm going to, I check the parks (including trails and campgrounds) I go to, my dog is harnessed rather than collared, and my dog is properly socialized for both humans and animals (cats too!)

rcpt 5y ago

It's out of control in Santa Cruz. Can't even take small kids to the local beaches without risking a mailing. I don't know why California is so lax about this. Other states I've lived in actually enforced dog laws.

anonAndOn 5y ago

Many are often also surprised that their off-leash little companion suddenly wants chase me and go for my ankle as I bicycle past. I've had a couple narrow misses by sprinting away but as I age I'm becoming more willing to properly repel an attack. PSA: Please keep your dog away from cyclists.

wott 5y ago
There is perhaps worse than off-leash: on a bloody 16 feet retractable leash, with the dog on one side of the road, and the owner on the other side... So called "retractable", because you cannot pull anything. A friend suffered a bicycle crash and killed a dog like that. I can see from my place all the time the same situation waiting to happen, with women busy chatting on one side, and not caring at all about where the dog goes. When I had to walk the dog of a former girlfriend on a road/street side, I always took the short, fixed leash, and in places where room was scarce, I even kept my second hand further on the leash to be able to shorten it quickly if needed. Just a couple of days ago, a bit different situations. I was cycling uphill on a small road, and there was a woman (it's almost always a woman, in fact) with a dog at her feet on the right of the road. I prepared to move a bit to the left to give them space while taking over. But the dog started coming to me (not aggressively), and the woman let the leash unroll, and unroll, and unroll. She never stopped it, but started yelling: not at the dog to call it back (which has a dubious success rate in general but shows a little bit of conscience at least), but at me! She was telling me to slow down, that I was crazy and dangerous. I said it was uphill, and I suck at climbing, so I was cycling at the ridiculous speed of 5 mph (yes, five)... And I was now on the opposite side of the road. It's a very bad idea to yell at me, it makes me completely snap, so the result was not what she expected. Coming back to off-leash, I was bitten in the calf while riding last year by two dogs (so far dogs had only gone for my trousers, but this time they went through the trouser, through the sock, and through the skin). The owner was standing 10 yards away, he didn't do or say anything. He didn't give a damn. In the little "discussion" had with the cretin, he kept claiming his dogs do not bite... while they were biting and pulling my trouser again... At no point he tried to regain control of his dogs. As it should be done, I reported it to the Mayor, who MUST take measures: here, there is no immediate death penalty for such behaviour, but the Mayor MUST make sure the dog should first be sent to a vet for behavioural examination. She didn't do anything. At my place, there are plenty of dogs loose all day long. The (French) law is lax, but even the few restrictions are never enforced. They shit and dig holes in people's open gardens, they occasionally attack and sometimes kill other people's pets (dogs and cats). Then you have shepherds dogs, who attack cyclists and occasionally pedestrians, even on public roads (and it's not a matter of protection, these bastards generally attack people in the back, after they have passed by); often farmers' dogs haven't been trained at all, or in the case of livestock farmers only trained to one purpose and the relation with humans was not part of it. When I was living in another country, dogs were never loose: either in a fenced yard, or on a leash ; whether they were pet dogs, shepherds dogs, sledge dogs or whatever type of dog and dog owner you may imagine. But over here people will tell you this is impossible. Gee... There are plenty of dogs these days. Cats are even worse, it is a proliferation (their number was multiplied by 2 or 3 in a few decades, IIRC), and due to their nature, they are even less kept under control. Luckily, they are also less a danger to humans, but they are worse about gardens, because contrarily to dogs, they ignore fences :-) It's like everyone wants to own a pet for the fun side, but the negative externalities are for others to undergo. Of course I don't do justice to the owners who care and pay attention, they do exist :-) but of course the others are more noticeable.

dghughes 5y ago

There's a new fenced dog park near me. Lately people have been going there but letting their dogs off leash in the filed next to the park. There are many new homes and lots of kids in the area. It's maddening.