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So why don't people in those groups speak out against it? When Reddit hired an admin with repeated links to child molestation, moderators of trans communities

by dannyw 5y ago

So why don't people in those groups speak out against it? When Reddit hired an admin with repeated links to child molestation, moderators of trans communities like r/LGBT staunchly took the position of the admin and called anyone speaking out against it transphobic. (The admin is trans). It kinda feels like law enforcement. The good apples aren't speaking out about the bad apples. If you see activists using your group to advance an agenda you disagree with, eject them. Don't just let them do their things.

mlang23 5y ago
Its not that easy to get rid of sticky activists. And it is also not easy to explain "You are not representing my views" without being attacked as either stupid or uninformed. I totally understand that after a few of those experiences, reasonable people just stop to voice their opinions, because the dirt fight is usually not worth it. I am a member of a minority group (disabled), and I see it very often that activists pull "me" into other activism simply because they are also catering for a minority group. I am expected to support them all, just because I am disabled. This is so weird and patronizing, it killed my remaining sympathy for the left in the last 5 years. I used to vote for the left. Watching the fallout of political activism has made me a non-voter.
- wccrawford 5y ago
  "I am expected to support them all," This, and the "If you're not with us, you're against us" attitude both disgust me. And I've yet to meet someone like that that didn't cherry pick some "other" group to vilify, making them hypocrites. But I do wish you'd vote. Please look beyond the left/right politics and vote for someone who you think will do the most good. That said, I fully understand if every single candidate looks like they'll do more harm than good, and you just can't bring yourself to support any of them.
  - treeman79 5y ago
    Growing up the goal was to try and treat everyone like equals. Not judge each other on color/etc. Get away from segregation and hate. Now that viewpoint is consider radical right and will get you all the unpleasant labels.
  - u801e 5y ago
    > But I do wish you'd vote. The problem is that candidates are becoming more extreme to cater to the more extreme parts of the electorate. That doesn't really moderates a real choice when deciding on whom to vote for.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- OzCrimson 5y ago
  I was with you until you made it political. I'm a member of a minority group and I'm fed up with wokeness. People like John McWhorter have described wokeness as a religion. That's a characterization that I agree with, and a religion isn't countered by being a Democrat, Republican, Independent or apolitical. I found the walk-away movement appealing when it first started. I agreed with the criticisms of the left. But the movement turned into switching uniforms ... walk across the field from the Dem side to the GOP side. It was more political than helpful. One of McWhorter's suggestions is that more of us need to tell the people in the religion, "no."
sampo 5y ago
> So why don't people in those groups speak out against it? You are asking why minority groups don't speak against dominantly rich, white and male majority?
- jasode 5y ago
  >You are asking why minority groups don't speak against dominantly rich, white and male majority? No. You've lost the train of conversation being developed in the replies. To paraphrase gp, he was saying : "So why don't people in those [minority] groups speak out against [others in their minority group with extreme views]?" See that context of minority identity group criticizing their own group from the prior comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27401731 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27401731
- smt87 5y ago
  Generally these activists are 'second tier' who want to usurp the perceived dominant rich white male. So they're usually rich white but female, rich male but Jewish, white male but unsuccessful, etc, who feel they deserve the easy success the rich white male has. They project those feelings of failure onto the marginalized groups they mean to represent. The minority groups often have totally different values then the activists ( who share the dominant value system and consider themselves and the minorities they represent the losers of that system ).
tim333 5y ago
The gay comedian Andrew Doyle does a good job as https://mobile.twitter.com/TitaniaMcGrath https://mobile.twitter.com/TitaniaMcGrath
- SV_BubbleTime 5y ago
  That was all really good. I didn’t have high hopes for humor going but some are fairly clever. Sadly rare.
rayiner 5y ago
Most people, unlike the activists, aren’t that politically involved. My parents are immigrants from a Muslim country, and are annoyed that progressive activists like Ilhan Omar have become “the face of Islam in America.” They tuned in long enough to vote for Biden in the primaries when it seemed like a progressive might win the nomination instead, but they’re not going to go out there and stir things up. The other problem is that the media narrative is controlled by white progressives who amplify the activists. Nobody invites my dad on CNN to express his view that he’s faced remarkably little racism living in America since 1989, most of that time in a red state. Nobody has my mom on TV defending Trump’s law and order stance and complaining why it took Biden so long to condemn rioting. Instead you have talking heads with degrees in cultural studies subjects that my parents wouldn’t even have allowed their kids to major in. FFS, 40% of men voted for Trump. When was the last time you ever saw one on TV? It’s been nice to see some normies speaking out about this. Zaid Jilani, who grew up as a Pakistani kid in the south, is one example: https://mobile.twitter.com/zaidjilani https://mobile.twitter.com/zaidjilani. Wesley Yang is great, and Matt Yglesias has been willing to broach the subject as well. Every now and then Fareed Zakaria on CNN chimes in with a take, like during last summer when he noted “hey immigrants actually love America and think it’s pretty good.” But center-left whites people need to defend their turf. The progressive left tries very hard to act like they’re speaking for all “people of color” and draw moral authority from that. They will amplify and retweet a handful of say Asian activists, and because there are so many more white people that really skews the perception of what Asians actually think and want. I think often times center-left white people are too scared of being labeled conservative to push back on that.
- aidenn0 5y ago
  > But center-left whites people need to defend their turf. As a center-right white person who was abandoned by the Republican party years ago, I wish the center-left good luck with that. My wife insists that I vote, so in national elections, I vote for a moderate in the primary that has zero chance at winning, and then a third party candidate that has zero chance at winning (my state and congressional district vote over 10pts more Democratic than the national average, so no need for strategic voting).
scrozart 5y ago
Not arguing with the sentiment, but pushing back on using Reddit as an example. The likelihood of the behavior we see on Reddit being attributable to actual humans or humans acting in good faith/not purposely sowing division is rapidly approaching zero. If they aren't a bot, they're a troll, and not the edgy comment kind. Also, Reddit does have verifiable problems with moderation, specifically little/no oversight of mods and a small handful of mods overseeing the vast bulk of subreddits.
vmception 5y ago
“They” are speaking out about it Their comments are greyed out, at the very bottom of all the threads, invisible, collapsed, flagged and otherwise censored And this is also one of those moments, so just add it to your generalizations so that you don't come to the same broad conclusion
throwaway894345 5y ago
I mean, every survey we do on these things indicates that like 80% of any given minority group doesn’t tie the progressive line on whatever issue (e.g., “abolishing the police”). I’m not sure what more needs to be done to “speak out”. It’s not like each race has a president that can speak on their behalf (although I probably shouldn’t give the woke folks any ideas).
- vkou 5y ago
  Do they tie the progressive line on "Make the police accountable and maybe not spend mountains of money on buying them tanks tanks and maybe not let them literally get away with murder?" Or is that not a 'progressive' line? (In which case, why the hell haven't we gotten it yet?) I think the likely explanation for this conundrum is that people don't support <whatever strawman of the week is used to attack a caricature of a position>.
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    > Do they tie the progressive line on "Make the police accountable and maybe not spend mountains of money on buying them tanks tanks and maybe not let them literally get away with murder?" If you’re asking “do black Americans want police reform”, then probably yes considering 90+% of all Americans favor police reform of some kind. So to answer your other question: > Or is that not a 'progressive' line? (In which case, why the hell haven't we gotten it yet?) Not uniquely, no. Why we haven’t gotten it yet: probably because our politics are broken by intense partisanship among other things. Frankly this isn’t a corporate issue (beyond some shallow virtue signaling), so it just doesn’t become a legislative priority. > I think the likely explanation for this conundrum is that people don't support <whatever strawman of the week is used to attack a caricature of a position>. This is a well-documented dodge. Leftists have been very clear that they want the police abolished. The media tried to make that message more palatable in advance of the recent presidential election by suggesting it was a euphemism for moderate police reform, and leftist activists clarified that they literally want to abolish the police. This is very explicitly not a caricature.
    - 5y ago
wearywanderer 5y ago
> So why don't people in those groups speak out against it? One example: https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2020/08/11/901398248/hispanic-latino-or-latinx-survey-says https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2020/08/11/901398248... 3% of US Latino adults use the term "Latinx". 20% do not use it, and 76% have never heard of it. Anecdotally, in Latin American countries, most people either mock it or have never heard of it. But this doesn't stop anglophone woke activists from trying to impose this word on Latinos.
- alephu5 5y ago
  I'm Peruvian and married to a Colombian and have never heard of this. On the other hand, right across the Hispanic world it's very common to use @ for gender neutrality: nosotr@s, latin@s, etc.
  - kelnos 5y ago
    Interesting, how do you pronounce those words with the @ in them?
    - pepelotas 5y ago
      It's only for written communication. When speaking you either use the gender neutral(male) form, or a conjunction of both. e.g.: "latinos y latinas"
  - KozmoNau7 5y ago
    That's so much more elegant! What's the proper pronunciation for those words?
  - umanwizard 5y ago
    > I'm Peruvian and married to a Colombian and have never heard of this. That’s not surprising, since it’s purely a product of “woke” culture in the USA, and the only people who use it are either multiple generations removed from their “ancestral” country, or have degrees in social sciences from Ivy League universities (or both).
waheoo 5y ago
They've been speaking out about it for years. You don't want to see it. https://youtube.com/watch?v=HROK6K0uzlY https://youtube.com/watch?v=HROK6K0uzlY And here come the downvotes.
- michaelmrose 5y ago
  Presumably because nobody wants to watch a rambling 20 minute video where we incredibly agonizingly slowly get around to proving Jordan Peterson isn't that bad because a person of color supports him. Here's a radical take he's an annoying talking head who is by turns educated and either uninformed or deceptive about the issues he's trying to spin out of control. What he isn't is worth attending to. The same can be said of this video. The downvotes aren't for wrongthink they are for the vastly more serious crime, on the internet at least, of being boring.
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    Dang. I’m no great JP fan—he’s certainly controversial—but I’ve found him reliably interesting in the handful of videos I’ve seen. To each his own.
    - waheoo 5y ago
      He's really not controversial though? All of his "controversy" I manufactured in hit pieces that misquote and take things out of context to push a narrative that isnt based on objective reality.
  - getlawgdon 5y ago
    Jordan Peterson is a complete charlatan. It's quite a spectacle to watch suckers lose their minds to his otherwise easily detectable hocus pocus.
    - prestigious 5y ago
      A charlatan in what sense? He’s an actual professor
hn_throwaway_99 5y ago
Tons of people DO speak out against it. I'm gay and I never read r/LGBT because it's such a shit-show of radical conformity. r/ainbow was started basically as a revolt against r/LGBT mods, and there are other places like r/gaybros and r/gaymers. r/LGBT basically got taken over by shitty mods, all they really have going for them at this point is their easily searchable name.
- junon 5y ago
  Same here. I was in SF and was "outed" as a centrist. I was labelled a Nazi a few times on Twitter - by people I knew, in real life, within proximity to my friends circle. I ultimately had to move out of SF as I felt incredibly out of place simply for not being far left. I'm no conservative, and I've seen plenty of hate for being gay from the right. But the last 5 or so years, much of that hate is coming from the far left now.
  - caeril 5y ago
    You see exactly the same thing in ecology/environmental circles. If you're concerned about climate change and resource constraints but you don't see a problem with migrating or bringing seven billion people up to American consumption and carbon emission standards, I don't know what to tell you. Neoliberalism has infected every progressive movement and it's disgusting.
    - cyanydeez 5y ago
      this entire thread is gibberish.
    - aeoleonn 5y ago
      That's an excellent point, it really shines a light on the hypocritical, dualism of the far left: - We must reduce carbon emissions! - We must allow more immigrants to become Americans (with our level of consumption & concomitant pollution production)!

by dannyw 5y ago

mlang23 5y ago

Its not that easy to get rid of sticky activists. And it is also not easy to explain "You are not representing my views" without being attacked as either stupid or uninformed. I totally understand that after a few of those experiences, reasonable people just stop to voice their opinions, because the dirt fight is usually not worth it. I am a member of a minority group (disabled), and I see it very often that activists pull "me" into other activism simply because they are also catering for a minority group. I am expected to support them all, just because I am disabled. This is so weird and patronizing, it killed my remaining sympathy for the left in the last 5 years. I used to vote for the left. Watching the fallout of political activism has made me a non-voter.

wccrawford 5y ago
"I am expected to support them all," This, and the "If you're not with us, you're against us" attitude both disgust me. And I've yet to meet someone like that that didn't cherry pick some "other" group to vilify, making them hypocrites. But I do wish you'd vote. Please look beyond the left/right politics and vote for someone who you think will do the most good. That said, I fully understand if every single candidate looks like they'll do more harm than good, and you just can't bring yourself to support any of them.
- treeman79 5y ago
  Growing up the goal was to try and treat everyone like equals. Not judge each other on color/etc. Get away from segregation and hate. Now that viewpoint is consider radical right and will get you all the unpleasant labels.
- u801e 5y ago
  > But I do wish you'd vote. The problem is that candidates are becoming more extreme to cater to the more extreme parts of the electorate. That doesn't really moderates a real choice when deciding on whom to vote for.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
OzCrimson 5y ago
I was with you until you made it political. I'm a member of a minority group and I'm fed up with wokeness. People like John McWhorter have described wokeness as a religion. That's a characterization that I agree with, and a religion isn't countered by being a Democrat, Republican, Independent or apolitical. I found the walk-away movement appealing when it first started. I agreed with the criticisms of the left. But the movement turned into switching uniforms ... walk across the field from the Dem side to the GOP side. It was more political than helpful. One of McWhorter's suggestions is that more of us need to tell the people in the religion, "no."

sampo 5y ago

> So why don't people in those groups speak out against it? You are asking why minority groups don't speak against dominantly rich, white and male majority?

jasode 5y ago
>You are asking why minority groups don't speak against dominantly rich, white and male majority? No. You've lost the train of conversation being developed in the replies. To paraphrase gp, he was saying : "So why don't people in those [minority] groups speak out against [others in their minority group with extreme views]?" See that context of minority identity group criticizing their own group from the prior comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27401731 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27401731
smt87 5y ago
Generally these activists are 'second tier' who want to usurp the perceived dominant rich white male. So they're usually rich white but female, rich male but Jewish, white male but unsuccessful, etc, who feel they deserve the easy success the rich white male has. They project those feelings of failure onto the marginalized groups they mean to represent. The minority groups often have totally different values then the activists ( who share the dominant value system and consider themselves and the minorities they represent the losers of that system ).

tim333 5y ago

The gay comedian Andrew Doyle does a good job as https://mobile.twitter.com/TitaniaMcGrath https://mobile.twitter.com/TitaniaMcGrath

SV_BubbleTime 5y ago
That was all really good. I didn’t have high hopes for humor going but some are fairly clever. Sadly rare.

rayiner 5y ago

Most people, unlike the activists, aren’t that politically involved. My parents are immigrants from a Muslim country, and are annoyed that progressive activists like Ilhan Omar have become “the face of Islam in America.” They tuned in long enough to vote for Biden in the primaries when it seemed like a progressive might win the nomination instead, but they’re not going to go out there and stir things up. The other problem is that the media narrative is controlled by white progressives who amplify the activists. Nobody invites my dad on CNN to express his view that he’s faced remarkably little racism living in America since 1989, most of that time in a red state. Nobody has my mom on TV defending Trump’s law and order stance and complaining why it took Biden so long to condemn rioting. Instead you have talking heads with degrees in cultural studies subjects that my parents wouldn’t even have allowed their kids to major in. FFS, 40% of men voted for Trump. When was the last time you ever saw one on TV? It’s been nice to see some normies speaking out about this. Zaid Jilani, who grew up as a Pakistani kid in the south, is one example: https://mobile.twitter.com/zaidjilani https://mobile.twitter.com/zaidjilani. Wesley Yang is great, and Matt Yglesias has been willing to broach the subject as well. Every now and then Fareed Zakaria on CNN chimes in with a take, like during last summer when he noted “hey immigrants actually love America and think it’s pretty good.” But center-left whites people need to defend their turf. The progressive left tries very hard to act like they’re speaking for all “people of color” and draw moral authority from that. They will amplify and retweet a handful of say Asian activists, and because there are so many more white people that really skews the perception of what Asians actually think and want. I think often times center-left white people are too scared of being labeled conservative to push back on that.

aidenn0 5y ago
> But center-left whites people need to defend their turf. As a center-right white person who was abandoned by the Republican party years ago, I wish the center-left good luck with that. My wife insists that I vote, so in national elections, I vote for a moderate in the primary that has zero chance at winning, and then a third party candidate that has zero chance at winning (my state and congressional district vote over 10pts more Democratic than the national average, so no need for strategic voting).

scrozart 5y ago

Not arguing with the sentiment, but pushing back on using Reddit as an example. The likelihood of the behavior we see on Reddit being attributable to actual humans or humans acting in good faith/not purposely sowing division is rapidly approaching zero. If they aren't a bot, they're a troll, and not the edgy comment kind. Also, Reddit does have verifiable problems with moderation, specifically little/no oversight of mods and a small handful of mods overseeing the vast bulk of subreddits.

vmception 5y ago

“They” are speaking out about it Their comments are greyed out, at the very bottom of all the threads, invisible, collapsed, flagged and otherwise censored And this is also one of those moments, so just add it to your generalizations so that you don't come to the same broad conclusion

throwaway894345 5y ago

I mean, every survey we do on these things indicates that like 80% of any given minority group doesn’t tie the progressive line on whatever issue (e.g., “abolishing the police”). I’m not sure what more needs to be done to “speak out”. It’s not like each race has a president that can speak on their behalf (although I probably shouldn’t give the woke folks any ideas).

vkou 5y ago
Do they tie the progressive line on "Make the police accountable and maybe not spend mountains of money on buying them tanks tanks and maybe not let them literally get away with murder?" Or is that not a 'progressive' line? (In which case, why the hell haven't we gotten it yet?) I think the likely explanation for this conundrum is that people don't support <whatever strawman of the week is used to attack a caricature of a position>.
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  > Do they tie the progressive line on "Make the police accountable and maybe not spend mountains of money on buying them tanks tanks and maybe not let them literally get away with murder?" If you’re asking “do black Americans want police reform”, then probably yes considering 90+% of all Americans favor police reform of some kind. So to answer your other question: > Or is that not a 'progressive' line? (In which case, why the hell haven't we gotten it yet?) Not uniquely, no. Why we haven’t gotten it yet: probably because our politics are broken by intense partisanship among other things. Frankly this isn’t a corporate issue (beyond some shallow virtue signaling), so it just doesn’t become a legislative priority. > I think the likely explanation for this conundrum is that people don't support <whatever strawman of the week is used to attack a caricature of a position>. This is a well-documented dodge. Leftists have been very clear that they want the police abolished. The media tried to make that message more palatable in advance of the recent presidential election by suggesting it was a euphemism for moderate police reform, and leftist activists clarified that they literally want to abolish the police. This is very explicitly not a caricature.
  - 5y ago

wearywanderer 5y ago

> So why don't people in those groups speak out against it? One example: https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2020/08/11/901398248/hispanic-latino-or-latinx-survey-says https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2020/08/11/901398248... 3% of US Latino adults use the term "Latinx". 20% do not use it, and 76% have never heard of it. Anecdotally, in Latin American countries, most people either mock it or have never heard of it. But this doesn't stop anglophone woke activists from trying to impose this word on Latinos.

alephu5 5y ago
I'm Peruvian and married to a Colombian and have never heard of this. On the other hand, right across the Hispanic world it's very common to use @ for gender neutrality: nosotr@s, latin@s, etc.
- kelnos 5y ago
  Interesting, how do you pronounce those words with the @ in them?
  - pepelotas 5y ago
    It's only for written communication. When speaking you either use the gender neutral(male) form, or a conjunction of both. e.g.: "latinos y latinas"
- KozmoNau7 5y ago
  That's so much more elegant! What's the proper pronunciation for those words?
- umanwizard 5y ago
  > I'm Peruvian and married to a Colombian and have never heard of this. That’s not surprising, since it’s purely a product of “woke” culture in the USA, and the only people who use it are either multiple generations removed from their “ancestral” country, or have degrees in social sciences from Ivy League universities (or both).

waheoo 5y ago

They've been speaking out about it for years. You don't want to see it. https://youtube.com/watch?v=HROK6K0uzlY https://youtube.com/watch?v=HROK6K0uzlY And here come the downvotes.

michaelmrose 5y ago
Presumably because nobody wants to watch a rambling 20 minute video where we incredibly agonizingly slowly get around to proving Jordan Peterson isn't that bad because a person of color supports him. Here's a radical take he's an annoying talking head who is by turns educated and either uninformed or deceptive about the issues he's trying to spin out of control. What he isn't is worth attending to. The same can be said of this video. The downvotes aren't for wrongthink they are for the vastly more serious crime, on the internet at least, of being boring.
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  Dang. I’m no great JP fan—he’s certainly controversial—but I’ve found him reliably interesting in the handful of videos I’ve seen. To each his own.
  - waheoo 5y ago
    He's really not controversial though? All of his "controversy" I manufactured in hit pieces that misquote and take things out of context to push a narrative that isnt based on objective reality.
- getlawgdon 5y ago
  Jordan Peterson is a complete charlatan. It's quite a spectacle to watch suckers lose their minds to his otherwise easily detectable hocus pocus.
  - prestigious 5y ago
    A charlatan in what sense? He’s an actual professor

hn_throwaway_99 5y ago

Tons of people DO speak out against it. I'm gay and I never read r/LGBT because it's such a shit-show of radical conformity. r/ainbow was started basically as a revolt against r/LGBT mods, and there are other places like r/gaybros and r/gaymers. r/LGBT basically got taken over by shitty mods, all they really have going for them at this point is their easily searchable name.

junon 5y ago
Same here. I was in SF and was "outed" as a centrist. I was labelled a Nazi a few times on Twitter - by people I knew, in real life, within proximity to my friends circle. I ultimately had to move out of SF as I felt incredibly out of place simply for not being far left. I'm no conservative, and I've seen plenty of hate for being gay from the right. But the last 5 or so years, much of that hate is coming from the far left now.
- caeril 5y ago
  You see exactly the same thing in ecology/environmental circles. If you're concerned about climate change and resource constraints but you don't see a problem with migrating or bringing seven billion people up to American consumption and carbon emission standards, I don't know what to tell you. Neoliberalism has infected every progressive movement and it's disgusting.
  - cyanydeez 5y ago
    this entire thread is gibberish.
  - aeoleonn 5y ago
    That's an excellent point, it really shines a light on the hypocritical, dualism of the far left: - We must reduce carbon emissions! - We must allow more immigrants to become Americans (with our level of consumption & concomitant pollution production)!