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Heroic rat retiring from detecting land mines
- a0-prw 5y agoThank you to all the heroic commenters here. Now I have a beautiful, concrete example of a "storm in a teacup".
- krishnadevi 5y agoThe rat having informed consent about what this work entails (not possible, given a rat's limited ability to understand what land mines are) In good faith, the rat having been given many alternatives as to what it wishes to do, without coercion Enjoy doing a task, while still enjoying something else more. Sounds to me like this rat had a pretty good time eating bananas.
- beebmam 5y agoWhat a great example of how language can be used to obscure reality. This rat has no concept of the harm that may come to them when performing this job that has been forced upon them. Now one might say: "This rat enjoys this work!". One cannot make that claim without: 1. The rat having informed consent about what this work entails (not possible, given a rat's limited ability to understand what land mines are) 2. In good faith, the rat having been given many alternatives as to what it wishes to do, without coercion At its core, I see this as necessary work, whether it is automated by machines or performed by humans or non-human animals. But let's at least be clear what's happening here and not sugar coat it: this is forced/coerced labor, there's nothing heroic about it given that the rat has no idea what might happen to them, and it's not a 'retirement' (this rat didn't wake up and say, I'm going to retire today!), it's that the rat's handlers have decided to no longer force/coerce this animal to work.
- andrei_says_ 5y agoI love this analysis. If you don’t know it already I think you may resonate with George Lakoff’s work on framing and metaphors.
- trhway 5y ago>This rat has no concept of the harm that may come to them when performing this job that has been forced upon them. You're probably very wrong here. It is very probable that the rat feels the fear and sense of danger being experienced by her handlers around/toward the minefield (dogs and cats definitely feel the fear of their human companions), and she has been the one who has been going into that danger zone for 5 years. What she definitely doesn't know is that that danger isn't applicable to her. So 'heroic' may be very well applicable here.
- Jiocus 5y agoAccording to your definition, 1 and 2, I've been doing a "rat's work" more than once :)
- pibechorro 5y agoYup. This applies for almost all pets as well. Given the choice to be free, most cats dogs birds etc would "retire" away from us, asking only for food and affection on the ocassional visits. Humans have a long history of normalizing captivity and slavery of other life. Also rats are awesome creatures, highly misunderstood.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- whymauri 5y agoLove this analysis. It reminds me of Maggie Mae's breakdown of My Octopus Teacher as eco-horror film -- it ends up exploring the same themes around language and communication that you brought up here. [0] [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whb4unrhy44 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whb4unrhy44 Specific time stamp for section on language (Gorillas in the Congo): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whb4unrhy44&t=1016s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whb4unrhy44&t=1016s
- hyperion2010 5y agoThe even deeper horror is that they explored many alternate narratives, and this is the one that they collectively though would, and in reality did, resonate most strongly with viewers. The horror isn't the film makers, it is that this is the narrative that global society prefers to hear. For even deeper horror still I suggest reading Francis Bacon, since from square zero modern science is founded on the rape of nature.
- zaybqp 5y agoWhy do you have to be so negative? This rat is not at any risk of harm because it is too small to trigger the mines. I would say this rat has been and will continue to be very well taken care of. It is also wholesome that people celebrate its "retirement" and appreciate its accomplishments. Your criticism is off base and rabid.
- jaas 5y agoI think this story about the rat and what it did is cool, it makes me happy, but I do agree with OP that the language of the story misrepresents the reality of the situation. If I was given total control over your life and made you work for me, would you be ok with that so long as, according to me, I treated you well enough? I doubt it. That isn’t the point though. This is not a debate about whether anyone thinks the rat is being treated well. The rat did not consent to this (because it can’t), so this is, factually, forced labor. I am ok with it in this situation, but let’s call it what it is and express gratitude for what the rat did to clean up human messes. Second, you can’t do something heroically if you either 1) don’t know what you are doing and what the risks are or 2) there are no risks. Take your pick, but either way it isn’t heroic. The rat did a great thing for us but hero is not the right word.
- zaybqp 5y agoI am not debating anyone. I just pointed out an invalid and unreasonably negative criticism for what is a feel-good news story. Back to your point. Do we ask for consent from working dogs? Have you ever seen news about "heroic" rescue dogs? What is your point really? Is it that we need to stop employing animals? Do we need to stop using anthropomorphic terms? Do we need to establish a ministry of truth and speech to regulate that? To quote Zoolander, I feel like I am taking crazy pills responding to these comments.
- crooked-v 5y ago> The rat did not consent to this (because it can’t), so this is, factually, forced labor. On the other hand, anyone who's owned an uncooperative dog will know that it's nigh-impossible to effectively train an animal who just doesn't feel like playing along.
- jopsen 5y agoYou make a good valid point.. that being being said... Free food for life in exchange for sniffing out 71 landmines that I'm too lightweight to trigger... If I was a rat, I would take that deal... considering that the alternative is, well, being an actual rat :) Yeah, sure, we didn't ask for consent, but I'll confess my hamburger probably didn't consent either -- though I think we only have get consent if we serve cookies :) (Bad jokes may be present)
- treeman79 5y agoHad a rat that loved packing peanuts. One night he found a stash and kept grabbing them. After taking away the fourth one, he ran up my arm and stared me straight in the eye for about 30 seconds. He then proceeded to grab one and move the further away. I’m quite sure I got chewed out by a rat.
- vidanay 5y ago---
- uhtred 5y agoCan you link to any evidence that rats simply exist and don't understand the concept of options?
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- summm 5y agoThat's no different to people keeping dogs as pets. They are exploiting pack behaviour, without really asking those animals.
- dgb23 5y agoDogs are typically strong, fast and dangerous enough so you really can’t do squat if they don’t want to live with you. Well except if you keep them in cages and use weapons and tools to control them. Their relationship also has utility for them. They use us for problem solving. Civilization is scary and complex. I also worry sometimes about what you’re trying to convey though.
- lostlogin 5y agoI'd prefer he stayed and keep him fenced, but he could leave within 20 seconds if he wanted to.
- spywaregorilla 5y ago> 1. The rat having informed consent about what this work entails (not possible, given a rat's limited ability to understand what land mines are) You can totally enjoy something while being ignorant to aspects of the task > 2. In good faith, the rat having been given many alternatives as to what it wishes to do, without coercion You can enjoy doing a task, while still enjoying something else more. Sounds to me like this rat had a pretty good time eating bananas.
- vidanay 5y ago---
- nicoburns 5y agoYou have no idea what it's like to be a rat, and no basis by which to make this claim. Given that they are intelligent mammals closely related to humans and with similar brain structures, it seems plausible, even likely, that they experience emotions thst are similar (if not entirely the same) as ours. Humans are driven by food and reproduction too, but that doesn't mean we don't also experience a wide range of complex emotions.
- ceejayoz 5y agoRats enjoy and seek out tickling. https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/article/rats-tickling-brains-moods https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/article/rats-tick... > Panksepp and Burgdorf showed that the animals remembered areas in their enclosures where they had been tickled before and routinely returned to those sites. > And in the current study, rats were observed performing something called Freudensprünge, or “joy jumps,” after tickling. They can also apparently feel regret: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/rats-experience-feelings-of-regret/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/rats-experience-f... > Rats showed both a behavioral sign of regret (turning and looking at the missed high-value reward) and were then more willing to wait for a reward following regret-inducing instances, indicating that they learned from their mistake.
- treeman79 5y agoAh typical old school scientific Nonsense. Similar to old theories that babies don’t feel pain. Spend a significant amount of time around animals and you will see a lot beyond the more base rutting instincts.
- slver 5y agoOK, well, if we start dissecting our human acts the same way, we'd literally end society. Most people are coerced into their jobs, due to society taking away their means of alternate survival, and job availability.
- gcheong 5y agoSocieties should exist for the benefit of the people living in them. If aspects of it do not serve the people living in them well then they should be abolished.
- slver 5y agoThat doesn't really mean anything. Society benefits some, is to the detriment of others, and for most it's a mixed bag.
- gcheong 5y agoI said should and, if you haven't noticed, the things people have often fought hardest for are changes to society that increase benefits to the people living in them that don't currently enjoy such benefits.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- slver 5y agoThe fact people have fought about things doesn't tell us much either. Did they get what they fought about. Or not. Typically not. Also is fighting to get more "society"? It happens even without society. So it's not an example of society.
- dTal 5y agoWell written. This was my thought as well. "Heroic" language is also deployed to distract from the exploitation of humans financially coerced into doing dangerous or stressful jobs. The clearest example I can think of is the public glorying, on certain types of public holiday, in the "heroic sacrifice" of all the soldiers who were marched pointlessly into machine gun fire in WW1.
- ALittleLight 5y agoI agree that it's not heroic since the rat has no real conception of what it's doing. I was curious after reading your comment what the mortality rate among mine detecting rats was. This organization says that none of their rats have ever died as a result of their detection work. As I understand it the rats are too light to detonate the mines. Their role is just to detect them and they don't have to worry about accidental detonation. That makes sense if you think about it. If these mines were the kind of thing that could be detonated by a curious rodent, they probably wouldn't have lasted so long in rural areas. That's another reason not to call the rats heroic. There is no real hardship for them in this work. They explore and smell and get a reward when they find something. I'd bet it may be better than a wild life, though a moral ideal might be letting the rats choose to work or not. (I wouldn't suggest actually doing that, since I think the forced labor of rats is a small price to pay to save human lives, but ideally the rats would be employees rather than slaves) https://www.apopo.org/en/herorats/faqs https://www.apopo.org/en/herorats/faqs
- Retric 5y agoHeroes don’t need to risk death to be heroes. People volunteering to fill out sandbags in a flood can save a community with no real risk to themselves, but their still making a sacrifice for others.
- nopcode 5y agoWhat about the rats that fail the training/final exam? I understood most don’t make the cut. I can’t imagine the dropouts have long and interesting lives.
- bayesian_horse 5y agoIt sounds way better to call them heroic. That's reason enough for me.
- ALittleLight 5y agoSure, it would sound better if I introduced myself as an NBA player, but that doesn't make it true. "Life-saving rats" sounds pretty good and is defensible. "Hero" seems like a bit of a stretch.
- wesleywt 5y agoThe article was not written for rats but for humans who love to anthropomorphize. So you comment is moot.
- djur 5y agoAnd, perhaps more importantly, the article was written in order to bring attention to the work that is being done to remove land mines. Giving medals to "hero rats" seems like a pretty cheap way to secure additional funding for a worthwhile cause.
- shoo 5y agoThis comment is written for rats.
- scotty79 5y agoI think it's very apt that they use military language when talking about this rat. Same language was used to describe heroic soldiers wanting to save lives with exactly the same disregard of what actual enlisted humans think and feel.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- uses 5y agoThe rats aren't in danger though...that's the whole point. > Though they have terrible eyesight, the rats are ideal for such work, with their extraordinary sense of smell and their size – they are too light to trigger the mines. When they detect a mine, they lightly scratch atop it, signaling to their handler what they've found.
- aaron695 5y agoEverything you say applies to the humans doing this work. To bring it back to the rat is also obscuring reality. For the workers these dumb things just make everyone's lives better, rat and humans alike.
- Havoc 5y ago>there's nothing heroic about it The whole medal thing is laying it on a bit thick and sure the rat doesn't know wtf is going on, but I do think the word is warranted. This rat found 71 land mines. That's 71 mines that are not stepped on by some kid playing soccer in a field. Yes there are issues with forcing animals do thing, but that seems pretty worthy of grandiose terms.
- whymauri 5y agoAfter working with rats for two years I came to the conclusion that they're basically cats that drew the shortest end of the cute stick. They more intelligent than people think and they have about the same variance in personality as traditional pets like cats/dogs.
- detaro 5y agobut rats are really cute. You just don't get to see a nicely cared for one all that often compared to cats.
- rchaud 5y agoCats live much longer than rats however.
- whymauri 5y agoYeah, rat cancer is no joke.
- dcx 5y agoBut at least we have thousands of different of cures for it!
- bartman 5y agoNone of which sadly make it into routine vet practice. I’m keeping rats of over 5 years now, and even the treatment options at one of the most experienced rat vets in the area feel just above medieval. There are basically 5 medications that are tried (NSAIDs, antibiotics, bronchiodialators and diuretics, cortisol) based on the presumed diagnosis, and easily located tumors can be operated on (depending on the skill of the vet). Our vet aptly described the state of the art in veterinary care for rats as knowing the LD50 dose of all medications for rats, but there being nearly no literature or experience on therapeutic doses. Through trial and error vets have developed therapeutic protocols for rats over the last decades, but the speed it’s been going at is slow and availability of medicine in the right dosages scarce (rats are tiny after all). Just now we’re going through treatment of a respiratory issue where the medicine of choice is no longer being produced, and our main option after the vet uses up her remaining 2 vials is to start experimenting with dosing for a yet unknown in rats (aside from LD50) replacement medicine. For what it’s worth, the rats in this article are gambian pouched rats which have life expectancies of around 5-7 years, vs. 1.5 - 2.5 years for domestic fancy rats.
- motohagiography 5y agoMakes you wonder whether you could train birds by burying peanuts over fake mines and then look for where they are scratching for them. Less intelligent birds are best, because smarter birds like crows would only scratch at some of the mines to attract people intending to dispose of them, only to watch them trigger buried ones in their path. It's something a cat would do as well.
- lovemenot 5y agoYou need to have confidence that a piece of land is cleared. If a trained bird does not scratch a surface, does it give you enough confidence to play football on it?
- nestorD 5y agoAPOPO (the association behind this initiative) lets you "adopt" a rat: in exchange for money they give you regular information on what and how it is doing. This sounded like a great gift so I did that for a friend but, sadly, passed the "thank you for adopting your rat, here are some information about him", he received no more information.
- rchaud 5y agoThe "Sponsor a ____" is a marketing tactic, the end result is the same as setting up a regular monthly donation, it all goes into the same pot, unless it's marked for a specific cause or appeal. However, there is a way to do this right. I donate to the Sheldrick Wildlife Trust, an elephant conservation region in Kenya. You can sponsor an orphan baby elephant, and they send you monthly updates on the elephant's growth, role in the herd (Bull, matriarch, mini-matriarch, etc), and you can follow their progress as they are rehabilitated and released into the wild. If you just take the money and run, that sours people on giving monthly.
- noir_lord 5y agoMy Mum does the same with some donkey/dog charities. They are smaller in scope but they are also way more involved with keeping people in touch with what is happening - it's good because she can see where the money is been used pretty clearly. They also do a thing where they run a raffle where the winner gets to name the new foal/a puppy - which is a neat idea.
- distribot 5y agoI don’t understand. It’s a marketing tactic except for this place you’re doing this exact thing with?
- rchaud 5y agoYes, because by framing the donation as supporting something specific, such as the care of a specific endangered animal, makes people feel more connected to the cause. It is disclosed that the money is still ultimately going into a bigger pot that supports the entire organization. However, donors can still see the impact of their gift if the digital team is diligent about providing updates for the particular animal being cared for. Sheldrick Trust does this by being highly active on social media with daily videos showing feeding times for the ophans, while the caretakers talk about individual elephants and how they're health and social skills are developing inside the herd.
- rchaud 5y agoThe article made absolutely no mention of how or why those land mines got there in the first place. Considering that they exist in such quantities that they are still being cleared up 40+ years after the end of the Vietnam war, it should have at least had a link to a story with more detail.
- stickfigure 5y agoWhich Vietnam war? You have several to choose from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indochina_Wars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indochina_Wars The Cambodian–Vietnamese War ended in 1989, so the mines are possibly not that old.
- zaybqp 5y agoMost of the unexploded ordinances in this country were dropped from big planes. Think clustered munitions and such. Those big planes came from a far away land.
- Vaslo 5y agoSource?
- bugbuddy 5y agoThe still-incomplete database (it has several “dark” periods) reveals that from October 4, 1965, to August 15, 1973, the United States dropped far more ordnance on Cambodia than was previously believed: 2,756,941 tons’ worth, dropped in 230,516 sorties on 113,716 sites. US Air Force bombers like this B-52, shown releasing its payload over Vietnam, helped make Cambodia one of the most heavily bombed countries in history — perhaps the most heavily bombed. To put 2,756,941 tons into perspective, the Allies dropped just over 2 million tons of bombs during all of World War II. Cambodia may be the most heavily bombed country in history. https://gsp.yale.edu/sites/default/files/walrus_cambodiabombing_oct06.pdf https://gsp.yale.edu/sites/default/files/walrus_cambodiabomb...
- jsw97 5y ago"We really trust our rats, because very often after clearing a minefield, our teams will play a game of soccer on the cleared field to assure the quality of our work," he said.
- PoignardAzur 5y agoWow. That's dedication. I don't even think that's necessary to reassure the local population. Often the area they're de-mining is being actively used by locals who have no other choice.
- viktorcode 5y agoAs a side note, biologically this is not a rat, but a pouched mouse. Still, as a rat dad this makes me feel happy. Another example as animals help to unfuck human errors
- pvaldes 5y agoFinally somebody noticed this. This is not a lab rat. Is a tropical rainforest species of pouched rat. Much bigger and totally different creatures in many aspects. Is like calling rabbit to a hare, or bison to a cow. Walking around and exploring until finding food is not "forced labor", is what rodents do all the time in the wild. They are inquisitive mammals by nature. I'm 100% sure that the rat enjoy finding mines (= fruit) in the same way as we enjoy hitting bricks in supermario games. Not to mention being safe from predators at night, the veterinary healthcare services, being cleaned from nasty parasites, the food, water and the human company in an animal that is more or less social by nature. It seems a very good deal for the animal. Trying to claim "animal cruelty!" here is a total nonsense.
- antsam 5y agoMagawa is set to spend the rest of his days living in the engine compartment of my car.
- ggm 5y agoAs a rat, I entirely approve of this story.
- racl101 5y agoThat rat is a mensch.