5 ms·

Here in France, as a contractor, if I bill a client 100 000€ annually and decide to get as much as possible in personal income, 30 000€ will go as social taxes

by edp 5y ago

Here in France, as a contractor, if I bill a client 100 000€ annually and decide to get as much as possible in personal income, 30 000€ will go as social taxes (health, retirement ...) and for the remaining 70 000€ you will have to pay around 25% as income tax (if you don't have any children). You will have an income of ~52 000€ for 100 000€ billed during the year. You're not earning millions and yet around 50% of revenue was paid for tax purposes.

rorykoehler 5y ago
25% is what I would expect. You're getting some of the other expenses back eventually (hopefully) in form of pensions, unemployment (if you ever need it) etc. Health itself is a service you are buying. I wouldn't call it a tax despite it being mandatory. I think taxes are too high and the system needs to be redesigned but I just think we need to be exact on our figures when we discuss this stuff.
- disiplus 5y ago
  it sure feels like taxes because it is based on your pay. In other countries like Switzerland it costs the same if you earn 5 or 10 k CHF.
  - rorykoehler 5y ago
    In Germany health insurance for example is also based on income but it's capped. My point is that it is more nuanced than 40%. No one counts the money they get back from these programs when they need to use them in their calculation etc
- Algent 5y ago
  His numbers aren't false for France. I don't have my last payslip on hand right now but it show cost for employer and it's roughly the double of what you get after taxes. Something like 3k€/month before tax turn into around 2100€ for you but your boss have social charges on top of it so for him it's more like a 4k€ cost.
- edp 5y ago
  I get what you're saying, it's not strictly income tax, but the end result is the same : it's a mandatory tax, based on what you earn. As for getting these expenses back, I hope I will have work and be healthy for as long as possible, and I'm happy to pay these taxes for poorer people to get access to healthcare or unemployment benefits. But I sure feel ~50% of my income is going into taxes without being a millionaire.
- Grustaf 5y ago
  You can expect whatever you want, but no middle class person pays as little as 25% in Europe, only the wealthy and the desperately poor get away that cheap.
  - tluyben2 5y ago
    Unless you do not mind moving every 7-10 years.
  - rorykoehler 5y ago
    I'm middle class and that's about what I pay (effective tax rate) in Germany. It's a bit less actually.
    - Grustaf 5y ago
      As I wrote elsewhere, if you make below 50 k in Germany and your wife isn't working, I don't think that's a very comfortable life style.
      - rorykoehler 5y ago
        I want for nothing. Edit: I just want you be clear here. I think the tax rate is way too high even at 25% effective tax rate. The system is overburdening poor people no doubt about it but I also think we should not fudge the numbers by claiming we pay the top tax band rates as effective rate because it invalidates whatever else we say after that. It’s dishonest. IMO effective tax rate should be <5% and actually 0% for most of us.
        Grustaf 5y ago
        As I wrote somewhere, most middle class people people in Europe pay way more than 25%, the average in Denmark being 45%. With payroll tax it would be more like 55%, and it really makes no sense NOT to count payroll taxes. And 5% is not realistic, even if you eliminate all the pork, corruption and inefficiencies. You can't provide education and healthcare and maintain infrastructure for 5%. I hate paying taxes but 20% would definitely not feel unreasonable for all those things, I'd pay that happily.
seanmcdirmid 5y ago
1099 income works roughly the same way in the states.
megaman821 5y ago
In the US as a contractor making $100,000. You would pay $15,000 in social taxes. Around 25% in income tax depending on which state you lived in and still need to pay for health insurance. So taking home 50% of your pay after taxes and insurance is about what you would expect.

by edp 5y ago

rorykoehler 5y ago

25% is what I would expect. You're getting some of the other expenses back eventually (hopefully) in form of pensions, unemployment (if you ever need it) etc. Health itself is a service you are buying. I wouldn't call it a tax despite it being mandatory. I think taxes are too high and the system needs to be redesigned but I just think we need to be exact on our figures when we discuss this stuff.

disiplus 5y ago
it sure feels like taxes because it is based on your pay. In other countries like Switzerland it costs the same if you earn 5 or 10 k CHF.
- rorykoehler 5y ago
  In Germany health insurance for example is also based on income but it's capped. My point is that it is more nuanced than 40%. No one counts the money they get back from these programs when they need to use them in their calculation etc
Algent 5y ago
His numbers aren't false for France. I don't have my last payslip on hand right now but it show cost for employer and it's roughly the double of what you get after taxes. Something like 3k€/month before tax turn into around 2100€ for you but your boss have social charges on top of it so for him it's more like a 4k€ cost.
edp 5y ago
I get what you're saying, it's not strictly income tax, but the end result is the same : it's a mandatory tax, based on what you earn. As for getting these expenses back, I hope I will have work and be healthy for as long as possible, and I'm happy to pay these taxes for poorer people to get access to healthcare or unemployment benefits. But I sure feel ~50% of my income is going into taxes without being a millionaire.
Grustaf 5y ago
You can expect whatever you want, but no middle class person pays as little as 25% in Europe, only the wealthy and the desperately poor get away that cheap.
- tluyben2 5y ago
  Unless you do not mind moving every 7-10 years.
- rorykoehler 5y ago
  I'm middle class and that's about what I pay (effective tax rate) in Germany. It's a bit less actually.
  - Grustaf 5y ago
    As I wrote elsewhere, if you make below 50 k in Germany and your wife isn't working, I don't think that's a very comfortable life style.
    - rorykoehler 5y ago
      I want for nothing. Edit: I just want you be clear here. I think the tax rate is way too high even at 25% effective tax rate. The system is overburdening poor people no doubt about it but I also think we should not fudge the numbers by claiming we pay the top tax band rates as effective rate because it invalidates whatever else we say after that. It’s dishonest. IMO effective tax rate should be <5% and actually 0% for most of us.
      - Grustaf 5y ago
        As I wrote somewhere, most middle class people people in Europe pay way more than 25%, the average in Denmark being 45%. With payroll tax it would be more like 55%, and it really makes no sense NOT to count payroll taxes. And 5% is not realistic, even if you eliminate all the pork, corruption and inefficiencies. You can't provide education and healthcare and maintain infrastructure for 5%. I hate paying taxes but 20% would definitely not feel unreasonable for all those things, I'd pay that happily.

seanmcdirmid 5y ago

1099 income works roughly the same way in the states.

megaman821 5y ago

In the US as a contractor making $100,000. You would pay $15,000 in social taxes. Around 25% in income tax depending on which state you lived in and still need to pay for health insurance. So taking home 50% of your pay after taxes and insurance is about what you would expect.