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"Cook wrapped up the memo by saying that he's looking forward to seeing employee faces. "I know I'm not alone in missing the hum of activity, the energy, creati

"Cook wrapped up the memo by saying that he's looking forward to seeing employee faces. "I know I'm not alone in missing the hum of activity, the energy, creativity and collaboration of our in-person meetings and the sense of community we've all built," he wrote." CEO's all spout the same nonsense. The majority of people work because they need to earn money. They're not working to make a new 'family' or change the world or be around 'creative people'. It's generally the leadership teams at companies that think it's great to be in the office but that's because they've sacrificed a lot to get where they are and they care deeply about their job and the company. The majority of people just want to earn some money and do it as easily as possible. I think companies not offering full remote work options will see a lot of employee turnover and will have to change their policy very quickly.

pochamago 5y ago
There are also plenty of people who like their coworkers and enjoy spending time with them each day. I don't think everybody finds work to be an unfulfilling drain on their leisure time
- coldtea 5y ago
  >There are also plenty of people who like their coworkers and enjoy spending time with them each day Of course. Especially those that hate their families (or themselves and can't spend time alone).
  - filleduchaos 5y ago
    Not everyone is painfully asocial - and I say this as a rather asocial person myself who's only ever held remote or remote-friendly roles. I couldn't imagine wilfully remaining at a job with coworkers so toxic that regular interaction with them is an ordeal.
    - pseudalopex 5y ago
      Preferring to spend time with friends and family is normal. It doesn't mean someone's coworkers are so toxic that regular interaction with them is an ordeal.
      - colinmorelli 5y ago
        That very sentence has already suggested that your coworkers are not your friends (or else they'd be in the group of "friends and family" that you enjoy spending time with). I think the very point of GP is that there are many people who do, in fact, develop friendships with their coworkers.
        jtr1 5y ago
        I've certainly made many friends through work, but in my experience a for-profit workplace is an artificial environment with a lot of distorting incentives that make it more challenging to establish genuine friendship.
        colinmorelli 5y ago
        Fair enough. I believe there's some truth to this. I do think it's hard to separate between genuine friendships and transactional relationships that happen to be symbiotic while you're working together (but will rapidly deteriorate when you don't). Sometimes I do wonder how much of this is the fault of skewed incentives of the workplace, versus just a paradox of human interaction. We think we're developing friendships by spending a lot of time with people, without realizing that time spent is of a transactional nature rather than furthering some connection. I spend a lot of time with coworkers, therefore a feel close to them. However, when asked, I realize I know almost nothing about them below the surface. In any case, I can appreciate that forming friendships at work can be more challenging. But I do believe many people (including myself) have done this, and when it works it can be incredibly powerful and make work much more enjoyable.
        pjerem 5y ago
        Right. I did lost a long time friend when he became my manager.
  - staticautomatic 5y ago
    Why are so many people getting divorced today? It’s because most of us don’t have extended families anymore. It used to be that when a man and a woman got married, the bride got a lot more people to talk to about everything. The groom got a lot more pals to tell dumb jokes to. A few Americans, but very few, still have extended families. The Navahos. The Kennedys. But most of us, if we get married nowadays, are just one more person for the other person. The groom gets one more pal, but it’s a woman. The woman gets one more person to talk to about everything, but it’s a man. When a couple has an argument, they may think it’s about money or power or sex, or how to raise the kids, or whatever. What they’re really saying to each other, though, without realizing it, is this: “You are not enough people!” — Kurt Vonnegut
- d3ntb3ev1l 5y ago
  In the Bay Area I found it to be nothing but a draining slog when not able to work remote
- ajsnigrutin 5y ago
  Yep, random talks about random stuff, lunch together, practical jokes,... if you're a person who can make friends easily, even at work, you're missing a lot.
  - subsection1h 5y ago
    > random talks about random stuff, lunch together, practical jokes Thanks for reminding me why I started working remotely 15 years ago.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- PragmaticPulp 5y ago
  > I don't think everybody finds work to be an unfulfilling drain on their leisure time Well said. WFH doesn't fix a bad job or a draining company culture. If your job is miserable and you can't stand your coworkers then you need to find another job, remote or not.
  - pseudalopex 5y ago
    Preferring to spend time with friends and family doesn't mean someone can't stand their coworkers.
  - jtr1 5y ago
    I have fantastic colleagues and I'd still rather work remote. My commute easily gets up to 10 hours / week on a miserable public transit system. I prefer to spend that extra 10 hours with my family, friends, and neighbors, or on household chores, or hobbies, or just relaxing. I certainly understand that some people prefer the buzz of the office and I support people working in the environment that best suits their needs and personalities. That said, having worked with an effective team in a hybrid environment (even before the pandemic) the idea of companies forcing people back into the office mostly reads as a lack of trust in the people they've hired. To me, that indicates a different set of problems.
    - ashtonkem 5y ago
      I’m also seeing a lot of sunk cost thinking on the part of management, and have seen a few cringe worthy “remember how great the office was?” stuff from execs. I think when you’re a C level, the size and appeal of the office gets melded into your ego, and you can’t get the same boost from people working from home.
- swiley 5y ago
  >There are also plenty of people who like their coworkers and enjoy spending time with them You can do this without forcing them to be around you. That's apparently a new concept to a lot of people.
  - Buttons840 5y ago
    Yes, I very much enjoy my co-workers. Several nights a week I find myself lying in bed and notice I'm grinning while thinking about some jokes or fun we've had together. We all work 100% remote.
    - itsokimbatman 5y ago
      Right?! My company was mostly remote pre-pandemic, and we've gotten more remote friendly during the last year. We share memes, conversation, movie reviews, etc. all over Slack/Zoom/Signal/etc. I'll just get random weird texts from one of my co-workers. It helps that a lot of us have worked together through multiple companies, but even the ones that haven't... I've honestly never met my manager in person just due to timing issues and the pandemic. Literally all of our interaction has been online and we have a really good relationship. As long as I have the choice, I will never go back to an office on a regular basis. WFH works for me.
      - rovr138 5y ago
        Similar setup. My team and I have been remote for years. We have channels on slack for non work stuff and we post memes, news, etc. We also have DM groups and just chat. We’ve got more people on the meme channels outside of the team. It’s a nice group. I even play games with some on my switch. I’ve only been to the company 3 times split between 2 locations. I’m looking to change teams soon. So advancement opportunities are there. Never met in person the manager, so it’s not that. Based on my experience, I believe it depends on the company, team culture and the people. By team culture I mean more how the team is run. Some are run very competitive others more collaborative.
      - xmprt 5y ago
        Off topic, but how does switching jobs along with your coworkers work? Do you guys all switch around the same time or is it more of a coincidence? Was it luck that you all passed the interview or was it more of a package deal where your current company wanted to hire you all together (ie, all or nothing)?
- ashtonkem 5y ago
  My coworkers are great, but do you know who is better? My family and friends.
  - max46 5y ago
    then get a job that requires less hours and/or less transit. Don't try to work at a place that requires a very high dedication with a lot of hours and then use wfh as a way to lie to you boss to spend more time with your kids when you are supposed to work.
    - lolgatekeeping 5y ago
      God people enjoy their wife/husband and kids.......... THE HORROR. Way to gate keep people's preferences. I don't lie to my coworkers when I say I want to be home by 7 to put my child to bed. You are delusional if you think that is abnormal. Also people can work wherever the frack (had to change to not offend the SF crowd) they please. You are correlating high dedication with high output which absolutely not the case quantitatively speaking. Gatekeep harder please... (lol flagged for a naughty word, sorry it hurt the tendies)
    - pjerem 5y ago
      That’s not what GP implied.
    - greycol 5y ago
      You can use a 15 minute break to be with family if you WFH. You can't use a 15 minute break to be with your family and complete a >15 minute round trip. If you believe being in the office is required, fine, but if that's your criteria for what a "very high dedication" employee is then you'll need to pay more remuneration(or offer other perks) than a business that requires the same skill set and dedication without requiring the employees to be in the office.
  - threeseed 5y ago
    Most engineers don't have a family. And some don't have close friends. Don't assume that your view of the world is the same for everyone.
- lolgatekeeping 5y ago
  Not everyone who prefers to WFH finds "work to be an unfulfilling drain on their leisure time", they just prefer to WFH for a myriad of reasons. (I like spending more time with my child, oof). If you aren't a middle manager and the employee is productive, then honestly why do you have an opinion?
- foogazi 5y ago
  > There are also plenty of people who like their coworkers and enjoy spending time with them each day. Not saying you are wrong, but The vast majority of people first get jobs to earn money THEN meet the coworkers AND having no other option besides interacting with coworkers during work hours, will try to get along
  - threeseed 5y ago
    The vast majority of IT people in Silicon Valley can yell on the street and get a job. So then it becomes which company has the best culture, values, people, environment etc.
    - xmprt 5y ago
      I think that line of thinking will be quickly replaced. Better culture, free food, people, environment, etc. all mattered when employees were expected to spend 8 hours a day at work (and often longer). If more companies allow working from home, then that trumps a lot of the other perks because employees can make their own perks such as more flexible hours, shorter/no commute, living where they want to instead of being forced to live close to the office, etc.
      - YuriNiyazov 5y ago
        "culture" is not just what happens in the office, it is the processes and norms of the company. They are more important remotely, not less.
    - yread 5y ago
      Why do so many people work at ad and spyware companies then?
      - biztos 5y ago
        Assuming you mean Google and Facebook et al for "ad companies" then I guess it's the very high compensation and nice work environment as well as the chance to work on super cool tech with really smart people if you're lucky or sufficiently motivated? Of course most folks there probably work on super uncool tech with very average people, but those are also getting paid a whole lot of money and can enjoy the nice work environment, etc. Morality, even if it were universal, is not a prime motivator in career choices for most people.
- antpls 5y ago
  Great, but that's not a reason to force people who don't want to do it
- dangerface 5y ago
  If you like your coworkers that much you could just talk to them all day like at the office. You can then meet up with them for pints after work too. Im not 20 any more so the idea of going for pints after work isn't appealing to me anymore.
aikinai 5y ago
Your comment might make sense in a completely different context, but this is Apple! Everyone there could be making more money for less stress somewhere else, but they’re at Apple since they believe in or appreciate something else about the company, whether that’s the vision, the colleagues, the hard problems, etc. Apple is probably the number one company where your comment is not true.
- k-mcgrady 5y ago
  True but my point was more than you will find every CEO that forces people to come back make a similar statement. Also - Apple is a large company. Not everybody there is working on the next big thing. I'm sure there are plenty of people doing their job at Apple for money alone like anywhere else.
- mattnewton 5y ago
  As a former Apple employee, I disagree that Apple is that different- YMMV depending on the group of course, but there are people who are overworked and underpaid drinking the kool-aid, and there are plenty of people underworking who wouldn't be able to get a similar job at a big company. I do agree that they tend to compensate you in brand value/equity instead of top of market salaries though :D
- jolux 5y ago
  Less stress probably, but don’t they pay pretty well?
  - aikinai 5y ago
    Not compared to peer companies. If you’re already at Apple, you could probably get a job at Google with way less stress and more pay.
  - astrange 5y ago
    Software pays less than other FAANGs but there also aren’t constant exec sex scandals like other FAANGs. CPUs pay slightly better than other places.
coldtea 5y ago
>CEO's all spout the same nonsense. The majority of people work because they need to earn money. And Cook knows it. When he writes the above, it's just performative. The actual message is "come, or be fired".
- amyjess 5y ago
  This is going to backfire hard as soon as one disgruntled employee decides that, when faced with the choice of being forced to come into an office they can't stand being in or losing their source of income and ending up homeless, takes the third option of bringing an AR-15 to work, shooting up their workplace, and turning the gun on themselves. Desperate people do desperate things, and mark my words, we will see a massive uptick in workplace mass shootings as a result of reckless CEOs forcing people back into the office.
  - axaxs 5y ago
    That feels... unrealistic. Apple pays well, and the folks who work there are likely able to find another job like... tomorrow. I doubt there are many financially desperate, mentally unstable people working there. That said, I suppose it could occur at some other type of job. But pinning that on the CEOs is really unfair. People had a job presumably where they went into an office. The companies decided, or were forced to decide, that people could work from home to ride this thing out. Now that anyone who wants a vaccine is vaccinated in most places, it's not 'evil' to ask people to come back.
    - insaneirish 5y ago
      > Now that anyone who wants a vaccine is vaccinated in most places, it's not 'evil' to ask people to come back. Just because it's not 'evil' doesn't mean it's not stupid. If someone isn't performing, separation probably makes sense. But it shouldn't be because they've woken up and realized that being in an office all day is a soul sucking exercise that they'd rather avoid. I firmly believe this will all level out with people deciding to do what is best for them, because too many people have had the opportunity to realize how much better life is without a commute and physical restraints around where they do their work. (Side point: the idea that anyone who wants a vaccine can get one is incredibly privileged, myopic, and fundamentally wrong. Stare long and hard at this: https://blogs.imf.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/pandemic-plan-chart-1-1024x947.png https://blogs.imf.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/pandemic-pl...)
nojito 5y ago
Not at Apple but my company's internal data shows productivity is better as a hybrid vs pure WFH/In Office for many departments
- pjerem 5y ago
  In my company we are now in some unofficial hybrid approach where everyone works where they want or where they need to. It works really well. There is enough people at the office for it to be a sufficient socializing place, and enough people who WFH to « force » the remote way of work.
  - mLuby 5y ago
    That sounds nice. I'm surprised "work where you want" hasn't gotten more press time. Hybrid is so much weirder.
    - pjerem 5y ago
      It went naturally, we never were a remote first company before pandemic but working from home for personal reasons never felt like an issue. Nothing changed officially except that if WFH was socially an exception before, a lot of employees liked it to become their default, others don’t. So since nobody cares where others works, this new organization came organically. Our CEO is personally against remote as a standard, but there was never an official communication and since management is decently decentralized and managers just don’t care where you are, they know our job is to be done.
- k-mcgrady 5y ago
  Interesting, however I think any data gathered during the pandemic is not too useful. WFH is very abnormal currently for most. My current WFH productivity is certainly lower than when I WFH pre-pandemic. If I was making decisions about the future of a company I would allow totally flexibility for at least 6 months post-pandemic so I could gather more accurate data. Trying to make people decide what they want (remote/office/mix) now is going to lead to decisions that people end up changing a little down the line.
Solvitieg 5y ago
Considering that we spend most of our day doing this "work" thing, I find it much more tolerable to view my coworkers as close friends and my career as an opportunity. This is especially easy in such a privileged sector as tech where pay is excellent, office life is compelling, and work is challenging and exciting. I don't know how people survive day-to-day with a perspective like yours. I get that people can get fulfillment outside of work, but its actually possible to enjoy both. "Work is just a pay cheque culture" is just as toxic as "hustle culture".
- newsclues 5y ago
  I’ve worked in a military setting where brotherhood was real, but the only employer that pushed family (I found it to be cultish at the beginning) turned into a greedy soul sucking hell hole.
  - TecoAndJix 5y ago
    Some of my best work memories are from the military doing crap work with great people. Everyone just ate the shit sandwich together. Sometimes I miss it but then I remember how awful those sandwiches were. We had a pretty bad “event” at my current employer and as much as I didn’t sleep and eat I look back on it fondly. Something about shared misery builds rose colored memories
- lolgatekeeping 5y ago
  I don't know how people survive day-to-day with a perspective like yours. Work is life is equally as toxic. Some people don't have the same values as you... shocking.
- mssundaram 5y ago
  Have you ever been fired from your family? For some that analogy has happened, but for most people it's an exception, but for a job it's a much more real possibility. I'm a mercenary at my job. No allegiance but to my interests, because the leadership and shareholders have the same perspective
buzzert 5y ago
> The majority of people just want to earn some money and do it as easily as possible. That's true, and I don't blame anyone for that. However, I don't think one should expect to enjoy all of the benefits of an extremely high performing company (i.e., RSUs of great value, high pay, prestige, etc.) if they approach work in this way. It sounds very entitled to say "I'm just here for the paycheck" but expect all of the benefits of working at a highly productive company with none of the commitments.
- sfblah 5y ago
  I philosophically agree with your comment, but honestly my income over the past 20 years hasn't really followed what you're saying in any meaningful way. I've had places I didn't work very hard that paid me a ton, and places I worked like crazy and made little. In my experience, the factor that matters far more than anything else is the prevailing economy and, really, the stock market.
  - almost_usual 5y ago
    Agree, most of it is luck.
- slavapestov 5y ago
  I work my job for the paycheck, which includes those RSUs of great value. It’s a fine job, but if I didn’t need the money, I would quit. What kind of commitments should I be making and why?
  - buzzert 5y ago
    In this particular case, by commitments I mean fully commit to in-person collaboration. This doesn't mean sitting and working at your office desk instead of your home desk, it means actually making an effort to collaborate with other people. Sometimes in a spontaneous way, sometimes in a planned way. Collaboration is done better in person. I believe anyone who disagrees with that is actually only disagreeing for selfish reasons (i.e., they want to continue WFH), or they go through mental gymnastics to justify it in their head.
matthewfcarlson 5y ago
I’m convinced the majority of members of a previous team were secretly rich and could retire at any point if they so choose. Great team but there was a touch of “we are going to work on what we think is important, what are you going to do, fire me?” It had a really healthy team culture (largely due to the efforts of a few individuals) and I quite enjoyed going to work for that reason. Hated the commute.
- pjerem 5y ago
  Don’t know if it’s your situation, but I also saw that in an extremely poorly managed company. A chunk of the non management team had gained huge power (and money, I believe) because they were the only ones that were able to understand how the core product did works. The management were useless and nobody ever encouraged knowledge sharing. A lot of people complained about the under market salaries but those technical guys never complained or even speak about it.
mensetmanusman 5y ago
I don’t know, I work at a technology company and I am excited to go to work every day (because we are inventing the future). The research teams are fun, and the vision is exciting. I also am fortunate to have a strong work-life balance and try to only work 40 hours a week.
kamaal 5y ago
>>The majority of people just want to earn some money and do it as easily as possible. The second part is the key. I think if you are a hard ware design shop, you need a certain amount of equipment in house to be productive. While being remote might be something web development folks prefer. I can imagine there are many teams which are inconvenienced. Even for software folks if you are dealing with something like datacenter ops, or other kinds of work that require some on the ground presence remote work is more of a problem than feasibility. For a lot of people its easy to work from offices than home.
cgio 5y ago
CEOs and leadership teams would not mind remote work I believe, at least not as a general rule, given there are benefits to the bottom line, e.g. real estate, other expenses, productivity arguably. What I think is the key concern for leadership teams, is that remote work does not allow for an environment to train the next generation of workers. Most of the experienced people do just fine remotely, but imagine wfh exclusively as a grad. That said, even that concern might be from the perspective of an "old" generation, given young people can probably navigate online collaboration more effectively and therefore adapt to learn the job with less face to face guidance.
- asciimov 5y ago
  I haven’t had a job do any sort of training in… 20+ years. But then I’ve had some odd luck/experiences at every job I’ve had, except my first one. That first job was when I was 14 and was mowing yards with my neighbor who was a grad student.
- dhx 5y ago
  What is the benefit of mentoring or guiding less experienced workers through new tasks in person as opposed to remotely with voice calls and screen sharing / live multi-user document editing / similar real time collaboration tools? I've generally found remote work a better model as all people involved can edit the same document / diagram / model / code at the same time collaboratively, or at least have a better view of a screen than what is projected at low quality on a wall or displayed on a single monitor that isn't large enough for people to read at a distance. Whiteboards are OK for toy problems but are a hindrance for anything complex.
  - PoignardAzur 5y ago
    My recent experience (I've started two different contracts since the pandemic started) is that companies are at lot worse at on-boarding when everyone is remote than when everyone is in the office. Maybe it's just that we all need to get new habits and adapt to this new medium, and it's only n=2, but so far my intuition is that on-boarding is harder when your colleagues with the relevant experience aren't one office away. Asking questions on Slack just isn't the same.
aerosmile 5y ago
I promise to you that there's a job out there that would change your mind. It might be impossible to get it for a number of practical reasons, but please know that those jobs do exist. I am only sharing this to encourage you to look around.
ashtonkem 5y ago
I still struggle to tell if CEOs are lying to our faces, or whether they've become delusional with their time on top.
- pjerem 5y ago
  I honestly think they feel like they are like any other employees and hardly remember on day to day basis that nobody else around them shares the same incentive to work. Sure, they know it, but also I think it’s pretty human to take your everyday life for granted. After all, it’s the foundation of political disagreement.
- ryandrake 5y ago
  They just live in a totally different world than us. They don’t struggle making ends meet each month. They don’t have a soul crushing commute. They don’t worry about child care or whether their kids are getting a proper education. They are surrounded by thousands of people utterly dependent on them for their lifestyles, and who will never tell them No. They REALLY think that the general employees care about the “hum of activity, the energy, creativity and collaboration” just because in the exec’s world he actually does.
lolgatekeeping 5y ago
It exceedingly hilarious that you didn't flame your co-workers here or talk negatively about office culture, yet.... most the replies seem to focus on how you imply that office culture is not for you or somehow toxic. I feel like the stalwarts here are most likely young and bushy tailed. Wanting to pander to their really toxic boss, who says the only way to get promoted is to work 80 hour weeks and make them look good. Sorry, that isn't sustainable in any industry. Have fun (Cool I am going to report the really arrogant replies to this thread... which at this point are literally most of them)
lsllc 5y ago
If Tim's "missing the hum of activity, the energy, creativity and collaboration" then he's not paying attention to his employees.
- ryandrake 5y ago
  Whenever an exec waxes poetically about the “hum of activity, the energy, creativity and collaboration,” I can’t help but believe what he’s really enamored with is the physical act of surveying his fiefdom, watching and hearing all his serfs shuffling to and fro acting busy and looking like they are doing things. That’s what these guys get a rise out of. The vast number of soldiers under their command and behold! There the army is in all its glory! This is also why open offices are so popular with the exec class but nobody else. Cubicles and offices hide all those glorious bodies shuffling about visibly doing work.
  - mLuby 5y ago
    They should just get everyone together for an annual parade—it's what any good autocrat would do. Think WWDC but with scrum teams in matching hoodies marching by Cook's podium.
tdeck 5y ago
I wonder if some part of this is the ego trip of seeing your workers in your building working for you. As an executive, that's got to be more fulfilling than looking at some OKR slides and an employee roster. I don't believe this is the only motivator but it's surely somewhere in the mix.
- deagle50 5y ago
  Totally. Also seeing and hearing the fear and subordination, a sociopath's delight.
- dannyw 5y ago
  How about the fact that executives are regular people, who (1) have their human emotions, including possibly a natural desire to have in-person interaction with the people they work with, and (2) listen to other employees, some of which are in the pro-office camp (as seen in this HN thread)? Executives ain't some mystical species. They are regular people in a position of power.
  - tdeck 5y ago
    Not sure how that contradicts what I've said. I, as a regular person, understand the thrill of walking around a place I own. I enjoy playing SimCity-style games and seeing everything running in the city I built, but I don't get the same result looking at the stats screen. If I were in such a position of power, this would be a perk of return-to-office that would apply to me more than to my subordinates.
intricatedetail 5y ago
For many CEO dragging people across the city every day and see their tired faces gives them arousal and pleasure. Power is a drug.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Grustaf 5y ago
> The majority of people work because they need to earn money That might be the reason they work at all, but that's not why you work for Apple, or a similar company. And I don't even think "people work because they need to earn money" is completely true, in the sense that most people, definitely people with relatively advanced jobs like at Apple, would prefer working to not working, even if someone gave them free money every month. People enjoy the intellectual challenge, the structure, the community etc.
AnimalMuppet 5y ago
It's not necessarily nonsense. In particular, "creativity". People can spark ideas in other people. I suspect that it happens more often in-person than on a group video chat. I would find it perfectly reasonable that Tim Cook thinks that, too - genuinely thinks it, not just spouting nonsense. Now, that's "it's better for the company" rather than "it's better for you". But when that happens, it can feel pretty good. So in that sense, it can be better for employees too.

pochamago 5y ago

There are also plenty of people who like their coworkers and enjoy spending time with them each day. I don't think everybody finds work to be an unfulfilling drain on their leisure time

coldtea 5y ago
>There are also plenty of people who like their coworkers and enjoy spending time with them each day Of course. Especially those that hate their families (or themselves and can't spend time alone).
- filleduchaos 5y ago
  Not everyone is painfully asocial - and I say this as a rather asocial person myself who's only ever held remote or remote-friendly roles. I couldn't imagine wilfully remaining at a job with coworkers so toxic that regular interaction with them is an ordeal.
  - pseudalopex 5y ago
    Preferring to spend time with friends and family is normal. It doesn't mean someone's coworkers are so toxic that regular interaction with them is an ordeal.
    - colinmorelli 5y ago
      That very sentence has already suggested that your coworkers are not your friends (or else they'd be in the group of "friends and family" that you enjoy spending time with). I think the very point of GP is that there are many people who do, in fact, develop friendships with their coworkers.
      - jtr1 5y ago
        I've certainly made many friends through work, but in my experience a for-profit workplace is an artificial environment with a lot of distorting incentives that make it more challenging to establish genuine friendship.
        colinmorelli 5y ago
        Fair enough. I believe there's some truth to this. I do think it's hard to separate between genuine friendships and transactional relationships that happen to be symbiotic while you're working together (but will rapidly deteriorate when you don't). Sometimes I do wonder how much of this is the fault of skewed incentives of the workplace, versus just a paradox of human interaction. We think we're developing friendships by spending a lot of time with people, without realizing that time spent is of a transactional nature rather than furthering some connection. I spend a lot of time with coworkers, therefore a feel close to them. However, when asked, I realize I know almost nothing about them below the surface. In any case, I can appreciate that forming friendships at work can be more challenging. But I do believe many people (including myself) have done this, and when it works it can be incredibly powerful and make work much more enjoyable.
        pjerem 5y ago
        Right. I did lost a long time friend when he became my manager.
- staticautomatic 5y ago
  Why are so many people getting divorced today? It’s because most of us don’t have extended families anymore. It used to be that when a man and a woman got married, the bride got a lot more people to talk to about everything. The groom got a lot more pals to tell dumb jokes to. A few Americans, but very few, still have extended families. The Navahos. The Kennedys. But most of us, if we get married nowadays, are just one more person for the other person. The groom gets one more pal, but it’s a woman. The woman gets one more person to talk to about everything, but it’s a man. When a couple has an argument, they may think it’s about money or power or sex, or how to raise the kids, or whatever. What they’re really saying to each other, though, without realizing it, is this: “You are not enough people!” — Kurt Vonnegut
d3ntb3ev1l 5y ago
In the Bay Area I found it to be nothing but a draining slog when not able to work remote
ajsnigrutin 5y ago
Yep, random talks about random stuff, lunch together, practical jokes,... if you're a person who can make friends easily, even at work, you're missing a lot.
- subsection1h 5y ago
  > random talks about random stuff, lunch together, practical jokes Thanks for reminding me why I started working remotely 15 years ago.
deleted 5y ago
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PragmaticPulp 5y ago
> I don't think everybody finds work to be an unfulfilling drain on their leisure time Well said. WFH doesn't fix a bad job or a draining company culture. If your job is miserable and you can't stand your coworkers then you need to find another job, remote or not.
- pseudalopex 5y ago
  Preferring to spend time with friends and family doesn't mean someone can't stand their coworkers.
- jtr1 5y ago
  I have fantastic colleagues and I'd still rather work remote. My commute easily gets up to 10 hours / week on a miserable public transit system. I prefer to spend that extra 10 hours with my family, friends, and neighbors, or on household chores, or hobbies, or just relaxing. I certainly understand that some people prefer the buzz of the office and I support people working in the environment that best suits their needs and personalities. That said, having worked with an effective team in a hybrid environment (even before the pandemic) the idea of companies forcing people back into the office mostly reads as a lack of trust in the people they've hired. To me, that indicates a different set of problems.
  - ashtonkem 5y ago
    I’m also seeing a lot of sunk cost thinking on the part of management, and have seen a few cringe worthy “remember how great the office was?” stuff from execs. I think when you’re a C level, the size and appeal of the office gets melded into your ego, and you can’t get the same boost from people working from home.
swiley 5y ago
>There are also plenty of people who like their coworkers and enjoy spending time with them You can do this without forcing them to be around you. That's apparently a new concept to a lot of people.
- Buttons840 5y ago
  Yes, I very much enjoy my co-workers. Several nights a week I find myself lying in bed and notice I'm grinning while thinking about some jokes or fun we've had together. We all work 100% remote.
  - itsokimbatman 5y ago
    Right?! My company was mostly remote pre-pandemic, and we've gotten more remote friendly during the last year. We share memes, conversation, movie reviews, etc. all over Slack/Zoom/Signal/etc. I'll just get random weird texts from one of my co-workers. It helps that a lot of us have worked together through multiple companies, but even the ones that haven't... I've honestly never met my manager in person just due to timing issues and the pandemic. Literally all of our interaction has been online and we have a really good relationship. As long as I have the choice, I will never go back to an office on a regular basis. WFH works for me.
    - rovr138 5y ago
      Similar setup. My team and I have been remote for years. We have channels on slack for non work stuff and we post memes, news, etc. We also have DM groups and just chat. We’ve got more people on the meme channels outside of the team. It’s a nice group. I even play games with some on my switch. I’ve only been to the company 3 times split between 2 locations. I’m looking to change teams soon. So advancement opportunities are there. Never met in person the manager, so it’s not that. Based on my experience, I believe it depends on the company, team culture and the people. By team culture I mean more how the team is run. Some are run very competitive others more collaborative.
    - xmprt 5y ago
      Off topic, but how does switching jobs along with your coworkers work? Do you guys all switch around the same time or is it more of a coincidence? Was it luck that you all passed the interview or was it more of a package deal where your current company wanted to hire you all together (ie, all or nothing)?
ashtonkem 5y ago
My coworkers are great, but do you know who is better? My family and friends.
- max46 5y ago
  then get a job that requires less hours and/or less transit. Don't try to work at a place that requires a very high dedication with a lot of hours and then use wfh as a way to lie to you boss to spend more time with your kids when you are supposed to work.
  - lolgatekeeping 5y ago
    God people enjoy their wife/husband and kids.......... THE HORROR. Way to gate keep people's preferences. I don't lie to my coworkers when I say I want to be home by 7 to put my child to bed. You are delusional if you think that is abnormal. Also people can work wherever the frack (had to change to not offend the SF crowd) they please. You are correlating high dedication with high output which absolutely not the case quantitatively speaking. Gatekeep harder please... (lol flagged for a naughty word, sorry it hurt the tendies)
  - pjerem 5y ago
    That’s not what GP implied.
  - greycol 5y ago
    You can use a 15 minute break to be with family if you WFH. You can't use a 15 minute break to be with your family and complete a >15 minute round trip. If you believe being in the office is required, fine, but if that's your criteria for what a "very high dedication" employee is then you'll need to pay more remuneration(or offer other perks) than a business that requires the same skill set and dedication without requiring the employees to be in the office.
- threeseed 5y ago
  Most engineers don't have a family. And some don't have close friends. Don't assume that your view of the world is the same for everyone.
lolgatekeeping 5y ago
Not everyone who prefers to WFH finds "work to be an unfulfilling drain on their leisure time", they just prefer to WFH for a myriad of reasons. (I like spending more time with my child, oof). If you aren't a middle manager and the employee is productive, then honestly why do you have an opinion?
foogazi 5y ago
> There are also plenty of people who like their coworkers and enjoy spending time with them each day. Not saying you are wrong, but The vast majority of people first get jobs to earn money THEN meet the coworkers AND having no other option besides interacting with coworkers during work hours, will try to get along
- threeseed 5y ago
  The vast majority of IT people in Silicon Valley can yell on the street and get a job. So then it becomes which company has the best culture, values, people, environment etc.
  - xmprt 5y ago
    I think that line of thinking will be quickly replaced. Better culture, free food, people, environment, etc. all mattered when employees were expected to spend 8 hours a day at work (and often longer). If more companies allow working from home, then that trumps a lot of the other perks because employees can make their own perks such as more flexible hours, shorter/no commute, living where they want to instead of being forced to live close to the office, etc.
    - YuriNiyazov 5y ago
      "culture" is not just what happens in the office, it is the processes and norms of the company. They are more important remotely, not less.
  - yread 5y ago
    Why do so many people work at ad and spyware companies then?
    - biztos 5y ago
      Assuming you mean Google and Facebook et al for "ad companies" then I guess it's the very high compensation and nice work environment as well as the chance to work on super cool tech with really smart people if you're lucky or sufficiently motivated? Of course most folks there probably work on super uncool tech with very average people, but those are also getting paid a whole lot of money and can enjoy the nice work environment, etc. Morality, even if it were universal, is not a prime motivator in career choices for most people.
antpls 5y ago
Great, but that's not a reason to force people who don't want to do it
dangerface 5y ago
If you like your coworkers that much you could just talk to them all day like at the office. You can then meet up with them for pints after work too. Im not 20 any more so the idea of going for pints after work isn't appealing to me anymore.

aikinai 5y ago

Your comment might make sense in a completely different context, but this is Apple! Everyone there could be making more money for less stress somewhere else, but they’re at Apple since they believe in or appreciate something else about the company, whether that’s the vision, the colleagues, the hard problems, etc. Apple is probably the number one company where your comment is not true.

k-mcgrady 5y ago
True but my point was more than you will find every CEO that forces people to come back make a similar statement. Also - Apple is a large company. Not everybody there is working on the next big thing. I'm sure there are plenty of people doing their job at Apple for money alone like anywhere else.
mattnewton 5y ago
As a former Apple employee, I disagree that Apple is that different- YMMV depending on the group of course, but there are people who are overworked and underpaid drinking the kool-aid, and there are plenty of people underworking who wouldn't be able to get a similar job at a big company. I do agree that they tend to compensate you in brand value/equity instead of top of market salaries though :D
jolux 5y ago
Less stress probably, but don’t they pay pretty well?
- aikinai 5y ago
  Not compared to peer companies. If you’re already at Apple, you could probably get a job at Google with way less stress and more pay.
- astrange 5y ago
  Software pays less than other FAANGs but there also aren’t constant exec sex scandals like other FAANGs. CPUs pay slightly better than other places.

coldtea 5y ago

>CEO's all spout the same nonsense. The majority of people work because they need to earn money. And Cook knows it. When he writes the above, it's just performative. The actual message is "come, or be fired".

amyjess 5y ago
This is going to backfire hard as soon as one disgruntled employee decides that, when faced with the choice of being forced to come into an office they can't stand being in or losing their source of income and ending up homeless, takes the third option of bringing an AR-15 to work, shooting up their workplace, and turning the gun on themselves. Desperate people do desperate things, and mark my words, we will see a massive uptick in workplace mass shootings as a result of reckless CEOs forcing people back into the office.
- axaxs 5y ago
  That feels... unrealistic. Apple pays well, and the folks who work there are likely able to find another job like... tomorrow. I doubt there are many financially desperate, mentally unstable people working there. That said, I suppose it could occur at some other type of job. But pinning that on the CEOs is really unfair. People had a job presumably where they went into an office. The companies decided, or were forced to decide, that people could work from home to ride this thing out. Now that anyone who wants a vaccine is vaccinated in most places, it's not 'evil' to ask people to come back.
  - insaneirish 5y ago
    > Now that anyone who wants a vaccine is vaccinated in most places, it's not 'evil' to ask people to come back. Just because it's not 'evil' doesn't mean it's not stupid. If someone isn't performing, separation probably makes sense. But it shouldn't be because they've woken up and realized that being in an office all day is a soul sucking exercise that they'd rather avoid. I firmly believe this will all level out with people deciding to do what is best for them, because too many people have had the opportunity to realize how much better life is without a commute and physical restraints around where they do their work. (Side point: the idea that anyone who wants a vaccine can get one is incredibly privileged, myopic, and fundamentally wrong. Stare long and hard at this: https://blogs.imf.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/pandemic-plan-chart-1-1024x947.png https://blogs.imf.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/pandemic-pl...)

nojito 5y ago

Not at Apple but my company's internal data shows productivity is better as a hybrid vs pure WFH/In Office for many departments

pjerem 5y ago
In my company we are now in some unofficial hybrid approach where everyone works where they want or where they need to. It works really well. There is enough people at the office for it to be a sufficient socializing place, and enough people who WFH to « force » the remote way of work.
- mLuby 5y ago
  That sounds nice. I'm surprised "work where you want" hasn't gotten more press time. Hybrid is so much weirder.
  - pjerem 5y ago
    It went naturally, we never were a remote first company before pandemic but working from home for personal reasons never felt like an issue. Nothing changed officially except that if WFH was socially an exception before, a lot of employees liked it to become their default, others don’t. So since nobody cares where others works, this new organization came organically. Our CEO is personally against remote as a standard, but there was never an official communication and since management is decently decentralized and managers just don’t care where you are, they know our job is to be done.
k-mcgrady 5y ago
Interesting, however I think any data gathered during the pandemic is not too useful. WFH is very abnormal currently for most. My current WFH productivity is certainly lower than when I WFH pre-pandemic. If I was making decisions about the future of a company I would allow totally flexibility for at least 6 months post-pandemic so I could gather more accurate data. Trying to make people decide what they want (remote/office/mix) now is going to lead to decisions that people end up changing a little down the line.

Solvitieg 5y ago

Considering that we spend most of our day doing this "work" thing, I find it much more tolerable to view my coworkers as close friends and my career as an opportunity. This is especially easy in such a privileged sector as tech where pay is excellent, office life is compelling, and work is challenging and exciting. I don't know how people survive day-to-day with a perspective like yours. I get that people can get fulfillment outside of work, but its actually possible to enjoy both. "Work is just a pay cheque culture" is just as toxic as "hustle culture".

newsclues 5y ago
I’ve worked in a military setting where brotherhood was real, but the only employer that pushed family (I found it to be cultish at the beginning) turned into a greedy soul sucking hell hole.
- TecoAndJix 5y ago
  Some of my best work memories are from the military doing crap work with great people. Everyone just ate the shit sandwich together. Sometimes I miss it but then I remember how awful those sandwiches were. We had a pretty bad “event” at my current employer and as much as I didn’t sleep and eat I look back on it fondly. Something about shared misery builds rose colored memories
lolgatekeeping 5y ago
I don't know how people survive day-to-day with a perspective like yours. Work is life is equally as toxic. Some people don't have the same values as you... shocking.
mssundaram 5y ago
Have you ever been fired from your family? For some that analogy has happened, but for most people it's an exception, but for a job it's a much more real possibility. I'm a mercenary at my job. No allegiance but to my interests, because the leadership and shareholders have the same perspective

buzzert 5y ago

> The majority of people just want to earn some money and do it as easily as possible. That's true, and I don't blame anyone for that. However, I don't think one should expect to enjoy all of the benefits of an extremely high performing company (i.e., RSUs of great value, high pay, prestige, etc.) if they approach work in this way. It sounds very entitled to say "I'm just here for the paycheck" but expect all of the benefits of working at a highly productive company with none of the commitments.

sfblah 5y ago
I philosophically agree with your comment, but honestly my income over the past 20 years hasn't really followed what you're saying in any meaningful way. I've had places I didn't work very hard that paid me a ton, and places I worked like crazy and made little. In my experience, the factor that matters far more than anything else is the prevailing economy and, really, the stock market.
- almost_usual 5y ago
  Agree, most of it is luck.
slavapestov 5y ago
I work my job for the paycheck, which includes those RSUs of great value. It’s a fine job, but if I didn’t need the money, I would quit. What kind of commitments should I be making and why?
- buzzert 5y ago
  In this particular case, by commitments I mean fully commit to in-person collaboration. This doesn't mean sitting and working at your office desk instead of your home desk, it means actually making an effort to collaborate with other people. Sometimes in a spontaneous way, sometimes in a planned way. Collaboration is done better in person. I believe anyone who disagrees with that is actually only disagreeing for selfish reasons (i.e., they want to continue WFH), or they go through mental gymnastics to justify it in their head.

matthewfcarlson 5y ago

I’m convinced the majority of members of a previous team were secretly rich and could retire at any point if they so choose. Great team but there was a touch of “we are going to work on what we think is important, what are you going to do, fire me?” It had a really healthy team culture (largely due to the efforts of a few individuals) and I quite enjoyed going to work for that reason. Hated the commute.

pjerem 5y ago
Don’t know if it’s your situation, but I also saw that in an extremely poorly managed company. A chunk of the non management team had gained huge power (and money, I believe) because they were the only ones that were able to understand how the core product did works. The management were useless and nobody ever encouraged knowledge sharing. A lot of people complained about the under market salaries but those technical guys never complained or even speak about it.

mensetmanusman 5y ago

I don’t know, I work at a technology company and I am excited to go to work every day (because we are inventing the future). The research teams are fun, and the vision is exciting. I also am fortunate to have a strong work-life balance and try to only work 40 hours a week.

kamaal 5y ago

>>The majority of people just want to earn some money and do it as easily as possible. The second part is the key. I think if you are a hard ware design shop, you need a certain amount of equipment in house to be productive. While being remote might be something web development folks prefer. I can imagine there are many teams which are inconvenienced. Even for software folks if you are dealing with something like datacenter ops, or other kinds of work that require some on the ground presence remote work is more of a problem than feasibility. For a lot of people its easy to work from offices than home.

cgio 5y ago

CEOs and leadership teams would not mind remote work I believe, at least not as a general rule, given there are benefits to the bottom line, e.g. real estate, other expenses, productivity arguably. What I think is the key concern for leadership teams, is that remote work does not allow for an environment to train the next generation of workers. Most of the experienced people do just fine remotely, but imagine wfh exclusively as a grad. That said, even that concern might be from the perspective of an "old" generation, given young people can probably navigate online collaboration more effectively and therefore adapt to learn the job with less face to face guidance.

asciimov 5y ago
I haven’t had a job do any sort of training in… 20+ years. But then I’ve had some odd luck/experiences at every job I’ve had, except my first one. That first job was when I was 14 and was mowing yards with my neighbor who was a grad student.
dhx 5y ago
What is the benefit of mentoring or guiding less experienced workers through new tasks in person as opposed to remotely with voice calls and screen sharing / live multi-user document editing / similar real time collaboration tools? I've generally found remote work a better model as all people involved can edit the same document / diagram / model / code at the same time collaboratively, or at least have a better view of a screen than what is projected at low quality on a wall or displayed on a single monitor that isn't large enough for people to read at a distance. Whiteboards are OK for toy problems but are a hindrance for anything complex.
- PoignardAzur 5y ago
  My recent experience (I've started two different contracts since the pandemic started) is that companies are at lot worse at on-boarding when everyone is remote than when everyone is in the office. Maybe it's just that we all need to get new habits and adapt to this new medium, and it's only n=2, but so far my intuition is that on-boarding is harder when your colleagues with the relevant experience aren't one office away. Asking questions on Slack just isn't the same.

aerosmile 5y ago

I promise to you that there's a job out there that would change your mind. It might be impossible to get it for a number of practical reasons, but please know that those jobs do exist. I am only sharing this to encourage you to look around.

ashtonkem 5y ago

I still struggle to tell if CEOs are lying to our faces, or whether they've become delusional with their time on top.

pjerem 5y ago
I honestly think they feel like they are like any other employees and hardly remember on day to day basis that nobody else around them shares the same incentive to work. Sure, they know it, but also I think it’s pretty human to take your everyday life for granted. After all, it’s the foundation of political disagreement.
ryandrake 5y ago
They just live in a totally different world than us. They don’t struggle making ends meet each month. They don’t have a soul crushing commute. They don’t worry about child care or whether their kids are getting a proper education. They are surrounded by thousands of people utterly dependent on them for their lifestyles, and who will never tell them No. They REALLY think that the general employees care about the “hum of activity, the energy, creativity and collaboration” just because in the exec’s world he actually does.

lolgatekeeping 5y ago

It exceedingly hilarious that you didn't flame your co-workers here or talk negatively about office culture, yet.... most the replies seem to focus on how you imply that office culture is not for you or somehow toxic. I feel like the stalwarts here are most likely young and bushy tailed. Wanting to pander to their really toxic boss, who says the only way to get promoted is to work 80 hour weeks and make them look good. Sorry, that isn't sustainable in any industry. Have fun (Cool I am going to report the really arrogant replies to this thread... which at this point are literally most of them)

lsllc 5y ago

If Tim's "missing the hum of activity, the energy, creativity and collaboration" then he's not paying attention to his employees.

ryandrake 5y ago
Whenever an exec waxes poetically about the “hum of activity, the energy, creativity and collaboration,” I can’t help but believe what he’s really enamored with is the physical act of surveying his fiefdom, watching and hearing all his serfs shuffling to and fro acting busy and looking like they are doing things. That’s what these guys get a rise out of. The vast number of soldiers under their command and behold! There the army is in all its glory! This is also why open offices are so popular with the exec class but nobody else. Cubicles and offices hide all those glorious bodies shuffling about visibly doing work.
- mLuby 5y ago
  They should just get everyone together for an annual parade—it's what any good autocrat would do. Think WWDC but with scrum teams in matching hoodies marching by Cook's podium.

tdeck 5y ago

I wonder if some part of this is the ego trip of seeing your workers in your building working for you. As an executive, that's got to be more fulfilling than looking at some OKR slides and an employee roster. I don't believe this is the only motivator but it's surely somewhere in the mix.

deagle50 5y ago
Totally. Also seeing and hearing the fear and subordination, a sociopath's delight.
dannyw 5y ago
How about the fact that executives are regular people, who (1) have their human emotions, including possibly a natural desire to have in-person interaction with the people they work with, and (2) listen to other employees, some of which are in the pro-office camp (as seen in this HN thread)? Executives ain't some mystical species. They are regular people in a position of power.
- tdeck 5y ago
  Not sure how that contradicts what I've said. I, as a regular person, understand the thrill of walking around a place I own. I enjoy playing SimCity-style games and seeing everything running in the city I built, but I don't get the same result looking at the stats screen. If I were in such a position of power, this would be a perk of return-to-office that would apply to me more than to my subordinates.

intricatedetail 5y ago

For many CEO dragging people across the city every day and see their tired faces gives them arousal and pleasure. Power is a drug.

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Grustaf 5y ago

> The majority of people work because they need to earn money That might be the reason they work at all, but that's not why you work for Apple, or a similar company. And I don't even think "people work because they need to earn money" is completely true, in the sense that most people, definitely people with relatively advanced jobs like at Apple, would prefer working to not working, even if someone gave them free money every month. People enjoy the intellectual challenge, the structure, the community etc.

AnimalMuppet 5y ago

It's not necessarily nonsense. In particular, "creativity". People can spark ideas in other people. I suspect that it happens more often in-person than on a group video chat. I would find it perfectly reasonable that Tim Cook thinks that, too - genuinely thinks it, not just spouting nonsense. Now, that's "it's better for the company" rather than "it's better for you". But when that happens, it can feel pretty good. So in that sense, it can be better for employees too.