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It‘s probably way too late to change the rules now, but even though it‘s totally legal according to the rules on the leaderboards, using a keyboard seems like q

It‘s probably way too late to change the rules now, but even though it‘s totally legal according to the rules on the leaderboards, using a keyboard seems like quite a difference from using a controller, and from the end of the video, sounds like it does make certain moves easier.

ranie93 5y ago
The video mentions this sentiment in passing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rIJNT7dCmE&t=2624s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rIJNT7dCmE&t=2624s
detaro 5y ago
From what I've seen, speedrunning communities tend to be pragmatic about that: If something like this becomes a concern, the leaderboards are typically just split and a new category added. (Although I guess for a console game there is a fundamental question if keyboard is an extra category or gets allowed for the "main" one) For some games there are tons of categories for different variations or restrictions. (It can even happen that when a new fundamental glitch is found, a category "Game X without this one specific glitch" is added if people enjoy running the game without it anyways)
stormbrew 5y ago
It's complicated. Keyboards are almost certainly 'better' in the abstract if they're good enough (low activation threshold, not a lot of bus latency on whatever you're using to connect it, etc) because it's easier to press complex sequences of buttons when you're not holding the thing you're pressing them on ('fat thumb') or you can choose the layout of the relevant keys (vs. 'claw' or 'piano' gripping a controller). But there are advantages to controllers too -- it tends to be easier to press two buttons on the same frame for eg. And the thing is, it's not like there's only one controller you can perfectly standardize on. Even if you require only an 'original controller from the console manufacturer', well does that mean you have to be using the original rubber contact pads? Those are mostly all dead by now. Are all replacement rubbers equal? What about putting tape in the middle of the dpad to make diagonals more consistent? And then it's also an accessibility issue. A lot of people can't use the original controllers. A lot of people who are otherwise very good at video games. Many of them can't use them because they played so many video games on them and they've gotten RSIs. All that said there are usually limits. Almost no games allow macros (exception: Celeste allows a macro for a dash technique) or any other "press one button for multiple inputs" kinda stuff. Very few games allow turbo (exceptions: some RPGs do because mashing through cutscenes is very bad for your hands). A lot of games do require controllers that are at least no more capable than one that came with the console though. But then there are things like one-handed controllers that are no more capable but could potentially change what's easy/hard. So.. yeah it's complicated. It's just down to the game and its 'community' to decide what makes sense. That's largely how the whole speedrunning world works these days. But no it's not too late to change the rules. Speedrun leaderboard rules change all the time to accommodate new information, techniques, and glitches. If people who run SMB feel it's unfair, it might change.
- to11mtm 5y ago
  >A lot of games do require controllers that are at least no more capable than one that came with the console though. An example of this would be if the original controller won't let you press both left and right at the same time, and being able to do so gives an unfair advantage due to the way the game was programmed (I think Castlevania SOTN is one of these.)
  - joshschreuder 5y ago
    As mentioned in this vid, there is also a TAS of SMB that uses left/right simultaneously to surpass the human limit
  - sciolistse 5y ago
    This is generally handled by an input cleaner, either in the controller itself if you hook it up to an original system, or via an emulator if you're using one. In the case of SMB1 L+R is disallowed (and it does give some in game time advantages) and all allowed emulators will give 'neutral' inputs if you press both L and R simultaneously so it will act as if you've pressed neither.
    - stormbrew 5y ago
      On the NES or SNES and any console with a dpad like those (which was patented by nintendo so until that expired there were other designed), it's actually just physically impossible. The directions are on a physical rocker that can't be pressed in two parallel directions at once. Though if the controller pcb is really worn down by the rocker's center nub, it can start to become possible, and then there really is nothing stopping you. It's not uncommon for really well-loved controllers to end up like this. It's definitely a letter-of-the-law thing where you could claim "but it's an original controller!" but no speedrun leaderboard is gonna let you get away with it. Also I don't think emulators do a neutral input if you press both, that would be quite weird (and unlike how it happens with a real controller when you move from one to the other). Instead I think they prioritize the first input.
elihu 5y ago
The video mentions that moves that can only be done by pressing right and left at the same time aren't allowed, as that can't be done on a controller. I wonder if keyboard input is tolerated but only if it blocks impossible combinations, or if it's just on the honor system not to do those moves?
- stormbrew 5y ago
  It'd be impossible to do that on the honour system. It would take an absurd amount of coordination to avoid ever doing it in a game like SMB, and the effects would be pretty immediately obvious. If you're using an emulator, you have to enable allowing it. If you're using a hardware adapter you'd have to have your adapter blocking it.
undersuit 5y ago
So I'm going to use the GameCube controller with the keyboard in the middle or I'll make a custom controller board or use a high end fighting games pad. Though an original NES controller speedrun coming close should definitely be a legit accomplishment.

ranie93 5y ago

The video mentions this sentiment in passing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rIJNT7dCmE&t=2624s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rIJNT7dCmE&t=2624s

detaro 5y ago

From what I've seen, speedrunning communities tend to be pragmatic about that: If something like this becomes a concern, the leaderboards are typically just split and a new category added. (Although I guess for a console game there is a fundamental question if keyboard is an extra category or gets allowed for the "main" one) For some games there are tons of categories for different variations or restrictions. (It can even happen that when a new fundamental glitch is found, a category "Game X without this one specific glitch" is added if people enjoy running the game without it anyways)

stormbrew 5y ago

It's complicated. Keyboards are almost certainly 'better' in the abstract if they're good enough (low activation threshold, not a lot of bus latency on whatever you're using to connect it, etc) because it's easier to press complex sequences of buttons when you're not holding the thing you're pressing them on ('fat thumb') or you can choose the layout of the relevant keys (vs. 'claw' or 'piano' gripping a controller). But there are advantages to controllers too -- it tends to be easier to press two buttons on the same frame for eg. And the thing is, it's not like there's only one controller you can perfectly standardize on. Even if you require only an 'original controller from the console manufacturer', well does that mean you have to be using the original rubber contact pads? Those are mostly all dead by now. Are all replacement rubbers equal? What about putting tape in the middle of the dpad to make diagonals more consistent? And then it's also an accessibility issue. A lot of people can't use the original controllers. A lot of people who are otherwise very good at video games. Many of them can't use them because they played so many video games on them and they've gotten RSIs. All that said there are usually limits. Almost no games allow macros (exception: Celeste allows a macro for a dash technique) or any other "press one button for multiple inputs" kinda stuff. Very few games allow turbo (exceptions: some RPGs do because mashing through cutscenes is very bad for your hands). A lot of games do require controllers that are at least no more capable than one that came with the console though. But then there are things like one-handed controllers that are no more capable but could potentially change what's easy/hard. So.. yeah it's complicated. It's just down to the game and its 'community' to decide what makes sense. That's largely how the whole speedrunning world works these days. But no it's not too late to change the rules. Speedrun leaderboard rules change all the time to accommodate new information, techniques, and glitches. If people who run SMB feel it's unfair, it might change.

to11mtm 5y ago
>A lot of games do require controllers that are at least no more capable than one that came with the console though. An example of this would be if the original controller won't let you press both left and right at the same time, and being able to do so gives an unfair advantage due to the way the game was programmed (I think Castlevania SOTN is one of these.)
- joshschreuder 5y ago
  As mentioned in this vid, there is also a TAS of SMB that uses left/right simultaneously to surpass the human limit
- sciolistse 5y ago
  This is generally handled by an input cleaner, either in the controller itself if you hook it up to an original system, or via an emulator if you're using one. In the case of SMB1 L+R is disallowed (and it does give some in game time advantages) and all allowed emulators will give 'neutral' inputs if you press both L and R simultaneously so it will act as if you've pressed neither.
  - stormbrew 5y ago
    On the NES or SNES and any console with a dpad like those (which was patented by nintendo so until that expired there were other designed), it's actually just physically impossible. The directions are on a physical rocker that can't be pressed in two parallel directions at once. Though if the controller pcb is really worn down by the rocker's center nub, it can start to become possible, and then there really is nothing stopping you. It's not uncommon for really well-loved controllers to end up like this. It's definitely a letter-of-the-law thing where you could claim "but it's an original controller!" but no speedrun leaderboard is gonna let you get away with it. Also I don't think emulators do a neutral input if you press both, that would be quite weird (and unlike how it happens with a real controller when you move from one to the other). Instead I think they prioritize the first input.

elihu 5y ago

The video mentions that moves that can only be done by pressing right and left at the same time aren't allowed, as that can't be done on a controller. I wonder if keyboard input is tolerated but only if it blocks impossible combinations, or if it's just on the honor system not to do those moves?

stormbrew 5y ago
It'd be impossible to do that on the honour system. It would take an absurd amount of coordination to avoid ever doing it in a game like SMB, and the effects would be pretty immediately obvious. If you're using an emulator, you have to enable allowing it. If you're using a hardware adapter you'd have to have your adapter blocking it.

undersuit 5y ago

So I'm going to use the GameCube controller with the keyboard in the middle or I'll make a custom controller board or use a high end fighting games pad. Though an original NES controller speedrun coming close should definitely be a legit accomplishment.