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PayPal shuts down long-time Tor supporter
- timdaub 5y agoBiiiiitttccoooonnneeecccttttt
- joe_momma 5y agoDoge to a dollar, then crash, then reset
- swayvil 5y agoSounds like Paypal got one of those secret government demands that we aren't allowed to talk about on pain of imprisonment.
- readflaggedcomm 5y ago>This is the first time we have heard about financial persecution for defending internet freedom in the Tor community. But they don't know that. Paypal refuses to give details. He describes a second recipent, the hosting company, and there could be more. Paypal's fraud and crime detection is pitiful*, and their silence can cover both incompetence and malice. [*] https://slate.com/technology/2020/02/paypal-venmo-iran-syria-sanctions-crime-detection-system.html https://slate.com/technology/2020/02/paypal-venmo-iran-syria...
- lsaferite 5y ago> they don't know that Isn't that already covered by > first time we have heard about
- tssva 5y agoPaypal has denied that funding of Tor nodes is the reason for closing the account so the EFF is making claims without any proof.
- whizzwr 5y agoNo. Paypal denied giving any details. It could be 100% because of Tor, could be 100% unrelated to Tor. Who knows, that's what EFF is disputing.
- readflaggedcomm 5y agoThey didn't hear about it. They guessed. We know, because the article reveals Paypal provided no specific reasons. But I guess that's too true for HN.
- smoldesu 5y agoWhoever made this call must have been pretty inebriated. All of the bad actors here are willing to pay for their Tor nodes with crypto, which really only sabotages the legitimate users on the platform.
- tyingq 5y agoI don't understand how it's legal for PayPal to hold his money for 180 days because they don't like the nature of his transactions. Kick him off their platform, sure...that's their prerogative. But why do they get to hold the money hostage?
- lynndotpy 5y agoI believe that's in the ToS. At least in the US, they have a quite restrictive binding arbitration agreement.
- tyingq 5y agoInteresting. I wonder if a small claims court (assuming the balance wasn't too large) would help. Edit: found the text in the TOS: "Holds based on PayPal's risk decisions We may place a hold on payments sent to your PayPal account if, in our sole discretion, we believe that there may be a high level of risk associated with you, your PayPal account, or your transactions or that placing such a hold is necessary to comply with state or federal regulatory requirements... Risk-based holds generally remain in place for up to 21 days from the date the payment was received into your PayPal account. We may release the hold earlier under certain circumstances ..., but any earlier release is at our sole discretion. The hold may last longer than 21 days if the payment is challenged as a payment that should be invalidated and reversed based on a disputed transaction as discussed in the following paragraph below. In this case, we'll hold the payment in your PayPal account until the matter is resolved (but no longer than 180 days)." https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full
- staticautomatic 5y agoYes it could help. A breach of contract claim would force them to provide evidence that the amount withheld is disputed actually disputed.
- judge2020 5y agoIn general it might be there to ensure no fraud is happening - when my account was flagged for being under 18 (at the time), they held my money for the 180 days before letting me take it out. I imagine they do (or used to) experience fraud from people signing up for accounts using the identities of children.
- Ekaros 5y agoPaypal being Paypal? Nothing new on Internet. And this sort of action is exactly why I will never accept money via Paypal.
- unethical_ban 5y ago"We don't like what you are doing, and are going to hold your money for six months. I hope you don't subsist on it, or have any business obligations to attend to. We'll call you." This should be illegal for Paypal to do, period. Absolutely illegal. And if it is on behalf of a government or banking/fraud regulations, then the person should be referred to relevant agencies. Let's be clear and drop the pretense: They are confiscating his property.
- slownews45 5y agoAre you sure it is being confiscated? He will have a claim then. What can happen is when your credit card / other payment providers cuts you off is that you go out of business. You might fail to provide services to users - so they do a chargeback / ask for a refund from payment provider. So when a payment provider is shutting you down, they usually want to hold onto some money to be able to handle those refund requests. Very common in travel situations as well.
- mdoms 5y agoSo PayPal is holding onto his money in case he incurs expenses as a result of going out of business due to PayPal cutting him off? And this seems normal and good to you?
- wearywanderer 5y agoThe beatings will continue until morale improves.
- slownews45 5y agoThis is the way many providers that offer recourse settlements handle things. They have data showing when they cut off a business from processing credit cards etc they may receive claims from customers who have already paid whose money they are either holding or have forwarded. If they are holding it they refund that customer, and business can ask for payment using another method. If they are not holding funds, they run into an issue of asking merchant for money (which is difficult to collect). So most providers of this type when making a decision to end a business relationship hold onto the funds for a while to let everything settle. This is not unique to paypal. Some providers don't hold funds if payor has no recourse. You usually need to be settling with what are called "good funds" for that to be the case, then merchant is paid out usually within 1 day under all circumstances. A fair number of B2B wire type clearing operations work like this. I'm just explaining what happens. They don't generally closely evaluate the reasons or likely outcomes of account closures, and there is enough fraud and profit motive / cost cutting in system that the rules tilt pretty heavily against merchant. That said, if OP is not lying and they really do confiscate the funds there will be an issue for them. Especially individuals, they'll send the unclaimed funds to the state generally even if not claimed by the person.
- convery 5y agoHolding the money hostage for half a year on a 20 year old account? Not surprising. Paypal and their other entities like Ebay are pretty shit when it comes to nuance and their impact on others. Had a 15 year old Paypal business account (parent started it and I took it over ~7 years ago) and last year they shut it down because I, as the new owner, was not 18 when the account was created. Nothing from the support but "computer said you bad, nothing we can do". In Ebays case I sold an item, got the regular email from Ebay (DMARK/SPF/IP verified) that they had received payment and was holding it until the item had been delivered. Then a week later I got another email from them saying they had blocked the buyer for abuse (i.e. a fraudulent transaction to them) and that I shouldn't ship the item they told me to ship a week ago. After 2 months of trying to get through to the support they just claimed that someone spoofed their DMARK, SPF, and servers IP. After explaining how impossible that would be their 'proof' that it was 'spoofed' was that there should be a copy of the message in the Ebay inbox where, after the reply, all messages about the auction ever existing were suddenly gone.
- syntheticnature 5y agoNot that it really matters to your points, but eBay and Paypal split in 2015.
- Qub3d 5y agoNot only did they split, they just forced all sellers to move from PayPal to direct deposit: https://gizmodo.com/ebay-and-paypal-finally-break-up-for-good-1847007130 https://gizmodo.com/ebay-and-paypal-finally-break-up-for-goo...
- FridayoLeary 5y agoThat sounds like good news. I don't see why i should have to give PP a cut of everything i sell on Ebay.
- Qub3d 5y agoI am ambivalent, but the reduced fees are nice.
- nonbirithm 5y agoI remember having my PayPal account locked for no specified reason, and they said because too much time had passed since it had been locked they would only reopen it if I physically mailed them a check with my bank information. Of course I refused such a ridiculous request and vowed never to use PayPal again. Yet I was still forced to use PayPal for another retailer because the retailer's credit card processing was broken, so I had to create a new account. It's frustrating when you have to go through a middleman or external company that treats you like garbage instead of being able to use an established payment system that works.
- danlugo92 5y ago#BitcoinFixesThis
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- xvector 5y agoI wonder where all the people that complain about cryptocurrency’s energy consumption went. It may be a problem, but it’s a hell of a lot better than situations like this. Cryptocurrency was created precisely for this reason - giving financial freedom back to the individual in a censorship-resistant manner, because it was obvious as day to the cypherpunks that created it, that governments and corporations would abuse our financial freedom where possible.
- richardwhiuk 5y agoThis problem is utterly immaterial to crypto.
- freedomben 5y agoI've been burned by Paypal a number of times. But until recently I hadn't yet been held hostage. Now I have. I wish I'd listened to people on the internet. DO NOT USE PAYPAL.
- swiley 5y agoIf you don't like cryptocurrency stop making it necessary.
- dandanua 5y agoAt this point I believe crypto whales will intentionally ruin conventional financial institutes and systems.
- xvector 5y agoThe systems are ruining themselves. Time and time again, “conventional financial institutes” have abused their positions of power wherever possible. It’s no surprise that people are looking towards crypto, which was created explicitly for the purpose of taking power back from these institutes. People finally have another option.
- dandanua 5y agoAha, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dI3MARgU0s8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dI3MARgU0s8
- richardwhiuk 5y agoMy bet would be that he's done non-Tor stuff with his account, and that's why it's been shut.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- StanislavPetrov 5y agoPerhaps you should read the linked article which states that the EFF examined his paypal history and found nothing remotely suspicious.
- richardwhiuk 5y agoFrom what he shared.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- arvindrajnaidu 5y agoLong-time Tor supporters are model citizens. How does PayPal not get this?
- shkkmo 5y agoIt isn't really clear what happened here, and that is a significant part of the problem. I think we are well past the time that we pass a law mandating the companies that provide public services do what the EFF has suggested: > Provide meaningful notice to users. If PayPal is choosing to shut down someone’s account, they should provide detailed guidance about what aspect of PayPal’s terms were violated or why the account was shut down, unless forbidden from doing so by a legal prohibition or in cases of suspected account takeover. This is a powerful mechanism for holding companies back from over-reliance on automated account suspensions. > Adopt a meaningful appeal process. If a user’s PayPal account is shut down, they should have an opportunity to appeal to a person that was not involved in the initial decision to shut down the account.
- seaourfreed 5y agoPayPal doesn't care about Tor. An intelligence service probably wanted to force this shutting down of Tor enter/exit nodes, so the percent of Tor enter/exit nodes were mostly the intelligence service. (For the best Doxing)
- gruez 5y ago>An intelligence service probably wanted to force this shutting down of Tor enter/exit nodes, so the percent of Tor enter/exit nodes were mostly the intelligence service. (For the best Doxing) It's a nice conspiracy, although I'm not going to believe it unless there's more evidence corroborating it (ie. mass reports of people getting their paypal banned or increased churn in tor relay nodes).
- livueta 5y ago> increased churn in tor relay nodes There actually was something kinda close to that recently: https://nusenu.medium.com/tracking-one-year-of-malicious-tor-exit-relay-activities-part-ii-85c80875c5df https://nusenu.medium.com/tracking-one-year-of-malicious-tor... But that's an increase in known-malicious relays and exits and doesn't speak to churn in existing, non-malicious nodes. The attribution efforts made in that article also suggest a different motive, though if I was a three-letterer attacking Tor I'd probably also try to look as if I was a Russian criminal bad at hiding my tracks.
- helios_invictus 5y agoStop using paypal. They neither pay or are your pal.
- Jiocus 5y agoPals don't let pals pay with Paypal.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- tr3ntg 5y agoI know I'm preaching to the choir as everyone here is aware of how terrible PayPal is, but I too have been burned by them. They shut down access to my personal account with no warning and no option for recourse. Thankfully I didn't have any funds stored there, but it was inconvenient and ruined any trust I previously had in them. Overall a terrible experience.
- the_optimist 5y agoFar from being illegal, this type of engagement has been historically preferred by US regulators. Perhaps someone can kindly check if this is a quiet reincarnation of Operation Choke Point? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Choke_Point https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Choke_Point
- amaccuish 5y agoWe turned off PayPal for certain countries, because the "buyer protection" found too often in an obviously fraudster favour. (reinjection of label into UPS network, forged label for return address etc. PayPal doesn't care as long as there is a tracking number... who cares where it goes to right?). Anyone who has ever had anything to do with PayPal as a Seller will tell you the same thing, as a buyer, always order with PayPal, and you'll always win.
- theturtletalks 5y agoEveryone is locked-in to PayPal at this point. Buyers have their credit cards on it and get buyer protection. Sellers have to support it since buyer's use PayPal as the default and don't trust companies with their credit card info.
- LegitShady 5y agoI dont actually know anyone who uses ebay or paypal today. I looked at ebay for a used book ($$$$) a while back and they weren't competitive with used book dealers, especially once shipping was factored in.
- mannerheim 5y agoI've had poor experiences with PayPal as a buyer as well. Tried to cancel an auto-renewed subscription, PayPal sided with the seller until I got my bank to reverse the transaction.
- xvector 5y agoNews like this is proof that cryptocurrencies like Monero are necessary. It’s proof (not that we needed any) that centralized finance does not have your best interests at heart, and they can and will abuse their power.
- skrowl 5y agoMonero + Distributed Exchanges will go a long way to fix these kinds of online payment problems. Unfortunately, at least near term you'll still need fiat-tether "on ramps" to convert your local currency back and forth to tether before you move them to a distributed (or at least a non-KYC) exchange to Monero, then sending to your local wallet, then use online.
- xvector 5y agoYup. It’s worth checking out LocalMonero [1] and the Haveno DEX [2]. The former already works and lets you buy Monero without relying on a KYC exchange. [1] https://localmonero.co/ https://localmonero.co/ [2] https://github.com/haveno-dex/haveno https://github.com/haveno-dex/haveno
- CapricornNoble 5y agoThanks for sharing Haveno. Sounds like it's not a mature app though. I would recommend Bisq as a more refined alternative: https://bisq.network/ https://bisq.network/
- xvector 5y agoYeah, Haveno is a WIP fork of Bisq for Monero that doesn't require BTC as a middleman and will have a much better UI/UX for newbies. Bisq doesn't even work on my M1 Mac, and the interface is kind of a nightmare.
- liquidify 5y agoNot touching tether with a 10 ft' pole. Stay away from that junk. Use USDC or something else to on ramp.
- croes 5y agoThis IT company bans are always like out of a Kafka novel. We ban you for your wrongdoing, you can't do anything about it and we won't tell you what you did wrong.
- mpol 5y agoSo, what is the alternative for PayPal? I sell only small-time. I don't want to do Creditcard, no Stripe either (I don't have a registered company) and iDEAL is only working in the Netherlands. So what is the internet alternative for international selling. And, please, no crypto-currencies :) I am off to sleep, see you tomorrow.
- mattnewton 5y agoSounds like you are aware of many alternatives to Paypal. Why not register a company and use Stripe?
- kenniskrag 5y agowhy not a traditional bank? You can open the account on your name or the company (depends on the legal form). The advantage is, that you can reach them by phone or in an office. Cross country cash transfer are usually no problems and you can manage your account on an e-banking website or sometimes on an app.
- adamcstephens 5y agoI’d even say go one step better and join a credit union. Less to worry about when you’re a member-owner of an organization that is focused on its members and community over corporate shareholders.
- dalmo3 5y agoCan't you use Stripe as Individual/Sole proprietor?
- c01n 5y agoPaypal is a scam. Use crypto-coins!!!
- lostgame 5y agoSo I can pay with crypto on Amazon? Etsy? Discogs? I don’t understand why there are so many posts here saying ‘just use crypto’, like - PayPal is a scam and needs a replacement but the problem is until sites start accepting crypto as simply as PayPal works then things will stay the same. What you’re saying to do in your comment - on most major online retailers - is not yet possible, and it will probably take a long time even if it can find critical mass. Crypto is another currency - it’s not another payment processor and while those are starting to exist we are nowhere close. I believe the laments here are more so related to PayPal’s dominance - for most websites it’s that or your credit card.
- ls15 5y agoMaybe "Use crypto-coins" was a message to Amazon, Etsy and Discogs.
- fsflover 5y agoMany stories how PayPal kills FLOSS projects: https://web.archive.org/web/20191011190010/https://minifree.org/paypal/ https://web.archive.org/web/20191011190010/https://minifree....
- bobthechef 5y agoYou know this sort of thing is going to become more common, right? I guess we just have to accept it and obey. Anything else might make life less comfortable.
- theknocker 5y agoI removed all of my payment information from paypal when I noticed they would readily engage in what amount to political sanctions.
- toss1 5y agoAt least I'm not being held hostage, but PayPal has just had their last interaction with me. After few sales of an un-marketed old product for most of the pandemic, someone tracked me down and wanted to purchase. Agreed on options and I said I'd have an invoice out in minutes. Should be easy, right? Login to PayPal, fill out invoice info, hit [Send] . . . . Nope, something wrong, contact support. Phone w/half-hour+ wait times, support ppl 'cant hear' and line drops, repeat, send email, both put me off, took a bit of info and said a specialist would get back to me quickly. Yeah, right. While I was waiting, I apologized to my customer and checked out alternatives. I'd worked with Stripe on a previous project, and they now have manual invoices (i.e., not only code-generated from website=>API). Signed up, got authenticated, setup invoicing, sent invoice, got paid, and the money is in my account, and the product packaged and on the loading dock -- all within an hour or so. More importantly, Stripe did a setup and execution from scratch in less time than I squandered even getting to initial PayPal help, and more than an order of magnitude faster than PayPal even began to send a useful answer my issue. Done with PayPal - strongly recommend not using them -- and never store money there.
- jes 5y agoAgree. I do all that I can to avoid using them.
- meowster 5y agoI think support people will claim they can't hear you in order to get the caller to hang up so it improves their metrics (short call time and the caller hung up). I always say "I have plenty of time and will wait until you can hear me, and I won't hang up" or something along those lines. The connections always seem to magical improve after saying that.
- toss1 5y agoYup, but in this case, they hung up while I kept trying to talk.
- wydfre 5y agoWhy would anyone support Tor? I mean, really, it allows for absolute evil. I would rather read about terrorist attacks in countries because of discontent than read about a tor site, okay? I used it once to try and find an anti-government website, something like the anarchy cookbook but practical and a forum, and I found a Tor site that looked normal but just scared the bejesus out of me. Never used Tor since. Well, I did get forgetful in college and tried to Torrent through Tor because I wanted to not get arrested for pirating or kicked off the uni network. Brain-damage and memory loss sometimes go hand in hand with schizophrenia. I am a paranoid schizophrenic - who has been paranoid of the government for a very long time - I don't use Tor. I will NEVER use Tor. I would rather be arrested for anti-government writing or something than use Tor. I would rather be charged with promoting terrorism because of my own server on my AWS account than use that goddamn evil network. At least I would include instructions that indicate Tor exit nodes as viable terrorist strikes.
- qualudeheart 5y agoPlease do not pollute the informational commons.
- wydfre 5y agoHave you ever read about a Tor network in the news and wanted to drink until you have liver damage? Quit being smart enough to justify evil apparent. At least I don't have to worry about where my monero or zcash is going; you do. Cash is anonymous - but mine at worst came from a strip joint, drug deal or hooker. And you work in national security at Anduril. Please be a normal consistent person.
- 3np 5y agoNowhere do you write exactly what you are afraid of and why, and what with the Tor network you consider evil. Could you elaborate on that rather than how angry you are?
- qualudeheart 5y agoWhat are the exact problems with tor? That it ennables immoral behavior? So does cash. So do these strip clubs and drug deals that you talk about. I mean I`m a libertarian and sex positive person and I think drugs should in most cases be legalized but I don`t see how that makes me somehow problematic or inconsistent! Can you elaborate?
- geswit2x 5y agoThis is where cryptocurrencies can play a role
- tediousdemise 5y agoThis type of virtue signaling is rampant in modern societies. There needs to be legislation to prevent companies from deplatforming users who aren’t doing anything illegal. Nebulous ToSes are not laws.
- darkstar999 5y ago> PayPal denied that the shutdown was related to the concerns about Tor, claiming only that “the situation has been determined appropriately” and refusing to offer a specific explanation. I feel like everyone is ignoring this part. Paypal says it isn't about Tor. Are they believable?
- MauranKilom 5y agoThis looks a lot like what might happen due to a Suspicious Activity Report. [1] > This section ensures that national banks file a Suspicious Activity Report when they detect a known or suspected violation of Federal law or a suspicious transaction related to a money laundering activity or a violation of the Bank Secrecy Act. Note also this part [1]: > No national bank, and no director, officer, employee, or agent of a national bank, shall disclose a SAR or any information that would reveal the existence of a SAR. Any national bank, and any director, officer, employee, or agent of any national bank that is subpoenaed or otherwise requested to disclose a SAR, or any information that would reveal the existence of a SAR, shall decline to produce the SAR or such information, citing this section and 31 U.S.C. 5318(g)(2)(A)(i), and shall notify the following of any such request and the response thereto: [...] I don't know to what extent this applies to PayPal, but it seems to be happening more and more frequently that people are just essentially barred from having any kind of bank account because of some opaque reporting trigger ("could be money laundering"), during/after which no bank will probably want to do business with you. [2] Let me also leave you with something whose sheer existence should be horrifying given the above. [3] [1]: https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/12/21.11 https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/12/21.11 [2]: https://sperrinlaw.net/suspicious-activity-reports-would-you-know-what-to-do-if-your-bank-account-was-frozen/ https://sperrinlaw.net/suspicious-activity-reports-would-you... [3]: https://verafin.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/suspicious-activity-reporting-for-dummies-DE-Verafin.pdf https://verafin.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/suspicious-ac...
- hik 5y agoThis is why the idea that people who are being censored by large tech organizations should "build their own platform" is an inherently bad faith apologia.
- jaimex2 5y agoIf you absolutely have to use PayPal it should always be a payment proxy and should never hold a cent longer than necessary. Whenever people snub cryptocurrency I always bring up examples like these.
- gonational 5y agoI see a lot of outrage in here and I truly love that. Honest question: would you express the same level of outrage, if the service in question was primarily a purveyor of political content that you disagreed with, or "hate speech"? I see a lot of libertarian-minded comments whenever the service in question is some form of file sharing/hacker related service, but I don't really see much outrage when the same culprits use their weight to censor political content, and / or wrong think. PayPal, Visa, YouTube, Amazon, all of these big companies have been engaging in censorship. Too many seem to be OK with others' rights being taken away, as long as they disagree with those who are losing their rights. How is that any different than what happened to this Tor supporter?
- teddyh 5y agoAs long as there’s some ‘other’ group that’s designated “bad” by the zeitgeist, it’s acceptable, even commended, to punish that group with whatever you have at hand.
- pitay 5y agoWell as someone who does that on occasion, not very often, far more on this site than real life, the answer is fear. If I was to do argue for free speech, I'd think twice because from experience I know that I will get called names and have terrible arguments against me that sound good but don't apply to what I said. In the IRL space (the actual like 2 times I've done this rather than the who knows how many times I have remained silent) it has been people who are absolutely fine with whatever horrible things happening to other people as long as those people are the ones the media has told them to hate. The funny thing about these people is that you know they will scream if this was applied to groups that they support or are part of, the hypocrisy is lost on them. In the online space, I think it is a mix of the former people I have mentioned and actual malicious people working for powerful groups destroying peoples ability to talk about important things. So in the end do I want to get into arguments with either malicious people or people who already have their mind set, get called names, have people deliberately portray what I am saying as something else and call it stupid when that was not what I said at all. Most of the time I really don't want to deal with that BS. Most of the people want to post about this are reluctant to do so and in many times don't, this is not just extrapolating from my experience, but what I have observed from other sources as well (such as asking whether they agreed with something shown, seeing no hands go up, then asking whether the didn't put there hands up because they were afraid and seeing almost all the hands go up).
- YeBanKo 5y agoRecently the was a rant against cryptocurrency, now this is a case for it. I thought there were regulations in the US that would prohibit a financial institution to hold money that long. Looks like there aren’t.
- Blikkentrekker 5y agoIt's odd enough that there are no rules against refusing service on arbitrary grounds for companies. I do not believe this to be legal in the E.U., but from how I understand it, In the U.S.A., a store can refuse any customer service on arbitrary grounds without having to say what the reason was. This is even more troublesome because the U.S.A. is a country of low population density where in some rural areas many people will have only one grocery store available to them, that could actually refuse them service simply because it's manager did not like the looks on their faces.
- YeBanKo 5y agoWell, to make analogy with the grocery store complete, it’s not just refusing service, but accepting the money and refusing goods, while holding the money for 180 days.
- cutler 5y agoHow is it even legal to deny him access to his funds for 180 days?
- NickKampe 5y agoI love how hackernews cares deeply about financial censorship then dogs on cryptocurrency. I'll never understand this community.
- hebetude 5y agoMan discovers banking system is centralized and prone to corruption? Shocker! Why do you think crypto tokens are skyrocketing in value?