6 ms·

This type of practice is what makes me not even consider FAANG jobs. I've (tactfully) told their recruiters I'm not interested; you'd have to pay me 500k minimu

This type of practice is what makes me not even consider FAANG jobs. I've (tactfully) told their recruiters I'm not interested; you'd have to pay me 500k minimum to even consider having to live on the west coast, dealing with their terrible work life balance, and having to worry about firing on top of everything else. Per this article, you could unknowingly have an expiration date on your employment. From personal contacts at Facebook, they specifically want you to get "needs improvement" on performance reviews to show that you're really pushing yourself; if you're doing well, you're not being pushed hard enough. I'm definitely not masochistic or interested in money/tech enough to work at a place like that.

wheybags 5y ago
I don't think it explicitly said it in the article, but I'm pretty sure the hiring-to-fire is happening in warehouses, not dev offices.
- cyrialize 5y ago
  IIRC Amazon has a fairly high PIP rate, it's something like 10%. Although what this article is talking about is probably separate from this. https://www.viamaven.com/blog/amazon-pip-what-is-it-what-to-do https://www.viamaven.com/blog/amazon-pip-what-is-it-what-to-...
  - cratermoon 5y ago
    How interesting that a 10% PIP rate aligns so closely with the bottom distribution of stack-ranking: https://lattice.com/library/what-is-stack-ranking-and-why-is-it-a-problem https://lattice.com/library/what-is-stack-ranking-and-why-is...
  - bpodgursky 5y ago
    Is 10% actually fairly high? I read that as "if you hire two teams of 5 people, on average one person on one of them ends up not performing and getting PIP'd. That seems... not crazy to me?
    - mter 5y ago
      Having it happen once isn't toxic. The part that creates the terrible culture is that it happens every year. Imagine trying to build a team and good culture when someone on your team is put into a performance plan/fired every year. Now add in unreasonable demands from management on delivery dates, churn from people trying to work at a company that doesn't fire one of their coworkers every year, and a lack of new hire support because if you don't bring your new hires up to speed very fast, they're more likely to get fired than you/your friends are. Also, those new hires get paid more than you do if they were brought in at the same level because they're "bar raising" and you aren't.
    - willcipriano 5y ago
      From the article GP provided: "About 10% of Amazonians receive a PIP. This is fairly high; at other companies, 0.5 to 3 percent of employees receive a PIP." Seems to be 3 - 20x the average. That's high.
    - BeetleB 5y ago
      10% is quite high. It's more like 3% in my company. And using invalid assumptions, if the probability that you will get PIP'd every year is 10%, assuming it's just a random dart shot, that means the likelihood you'll get PIP'd at some point in the first 4 years is 35%.
- stadium 5y ago
  It's absolutely happening in software roles.
cyan_atrus 5y ago
the good news is, 500k is indeed a floor for a lot of FAANG roles (when you factor in equity comp)
- cratermoon 5y ago
  No sane person (or nobody with more than three years in the industry) counts equity comp in with base compensation.
  - influx 5y ago
    For a pre-ipo company, sure. For a company like Amazon or Facebook, you are way over generalizing.
  - xenihn 5y ago
    i'm surprised to run across so many purported tech professionals who still don't know the difference between options and RSUs, and how the latter are as good as cash
    - sidlls 5y ago
      I'm not. Our industry is filled with people who have bought hook, line and sinker into the "I'm passionate about what I do and that's all I need" cult, especially in the Bay Area/startup world. They assume they're well compensated (a few are--maybe a higher fraction than in other industries, even--but most of them aren't) and don't pay attention to that sort of thing much.
  - autarch 5y ago
    At a public company, equity comp is a stock grant. This has a greater likelihood of being valuable than equity in a private company, though of course the value could still go down.
  - 6gvONxR4sf7o 5y ago
    At an early stage startup, no sane person counts equity comp. But at a company that’s been public for 15+ years, why wouldn’t you?
yaitsyaboi 5y ago
Well for one, they can probably get you pretty close to if not over 500k if you’re senior. I also think Amazon and FB stand out for that kind of mean spirited meat grinder vibe. Netflix doesn’t screw around with any of it and lets you go without the fuss, but my understanding is that you get a lot of signals from your manager and they aren’t about doing weird psychological tricks to push you harder. It’s just a matter of meeting a reasonable productivity bar. Google is very far from this and a nice relaxed place to work.
- luffapi 5y ago
  > Google is very far from this and a nice relaxed place to work. Google seems like possibly the worst place to work. They have major, thoroughly discussed issues with their review process. They were some of the initiators of ultra grueling interviews, elitist hiring practices… Google is well known for killing products and you often hear that is a by-product of their review process. Google offices are infantalized (just like FB) and often filthy (worse than FB). That’s on top of their well known issues with internal political fighting, sexual harassment from execs and unethical business model.

wheybags 5y ago

I don't think it explicitly said it in the article, but I'm pretty sure the hiring-to-fire is happening in warehouses, not dev offices.

cyrialize 5y ago
IIRC Amazon has a fairly high PIP rate, it's something like 10%. Although what this article is talking about is probably separate from this. https://www.viamaven.com/blog/amazon-pip-what-is-it-what-to-do https://www.viamaven.com/blog/amazon-pip-what-is-it-what-to-...
- cratermoon 5y ago
  How interesting that a 10% PIP rate aligns so closely with the bottom distribution of stack-ranking: https://lattice.com/library/what-is-stack-ranking-and-why-is-it-a-problem https://lattice.com/library/what-is-stack-ranking-and-why-is...
- bpodgursky 5y ago
  Is 10% actually fairly high? I read that as "if you hire two teams of 5 people, on average one person on one of them ends up not performing and getting PIP'd. That seems... not crazy to me?
  - mter 5y ago
    Having it happen once isn't toxic. The part that creates the terrible culture is that it happens every year. Imagine trying to build a team and good culture when someone on your team is put into a performance plan/fired every year. Now add in unreasonable demands from management on delivery dates, churn from people trying to work at a company that doesn't fire one of their coworkers every year, and a lack of new hire support because if you don't bring your new hires up to speed very fast, they're more likely to get fired than you/your friends are. Also, those new hires get paid more than you do if they were brought in at the same level because they're "bar raising" and you aren't.
  - willcipriano 5y ago
    From the article GP provided: "About 10% of Amazonians receive a PIP. This is fairly high; at other companies, 0.5 to 3 percent of employees receive a PIP." Seems to be 3 - 20x the average. That's high.
  - BeetleB 5y ago
    10% is quite high. It's more like 3% in my company. And using invalid assumptions, if the probability that you will get PIP'd every year is 10%, assuming it's just a random dart shot, that means the likelihood you'll get PIP'd at some point in the first 4 years is 35%.
stadium 5y ago
It's absolutely happening in software roles.

cyan_atrus 5y ago

the good news is, 500k is indeed a floor for a lot of FAANG roles (when you factor in equity comp)

cratermoon 5y ago
No sane person (or nobody with more than three years in the industry) counts equity comp in with base compensation.
- influx 5y ago
  For a pre-ipo company, sure. For a company like Amazon or Facebook, you are way over generalizing.
- xenihn 5y ago
  i'm surprised to run across so many purported tech professionals who still don't know the difference between options and RSUs, and how the latter are as good as cash
  - sidlls 5y ago
    I'm not. Our industry is filled with people who have bought hook, line and sinker into the "I'm passionate about what I do and that's all I need" cult, especially in the Bay Area/startup world. They assume they're well compensated (a few are--maybe a higher fraction than in other industries, even--but most of them aren't) and don't pay attention to that sort of thing much.
- autarch 5y ago
  At a public company, equity comp is a stock grant. This has a greater likelihood of being valuable than equity in a private company, though of course the value could still go down.
- 6gvONxR4sf7o 5y ago
  At an early stage startup, no sane person counts equity comp. But at a company that’s been public for 15+ years, why wouldn’t you?

yaitsyaboi 5y ago

Well for one, they can probably get you pretty close to if not over 500k if you’re senior. I also think Amazon and FB stand out for that kind of mean spirited meat grinder vibe. Netflix doesn’t screw around with any of it and lets you go without the fuss, but my understanding is that you get a lot of signals from your manager and they aren’t about doing weird psychological tricks to push you harder. It’s just a matter of meeting a reasonable productivity bar. Google is very far from this and a nice relaxed place to work.

luffapi 5y ago
> Google is very far from this and a nice relaxed place to work. Google seems like possibly the worst place to work. They have major, thoroughly discussed issues with their review process. They were some of the initiators of ultra grueling interviews, elitist hiring practices… Google is well known for killing products and you often hear that is a by-product of their review process. Google offices are infantalized (just like FB) and often filthy (worse than FB). That’s on top of their well known issues with internal political fighting, sexual harassment from execs and unethical business model.