5 ms·

Consumers don't have as much choice as you make it out to be. I can't choose the sourcing of my power utility's generation. Nor can I choose to get an EV becaus

by Forbo 5y ago

Consumers don't have as much choice as you make it out to be. I can't choose the sourcing of my power utility's generation. Nor can I choose to get an EV because my home doesn't have the ability to support charging. So I'm stuck with buying renewable energy credits from a third party in order to attempt to offset the dirty power generation sources and driving an inferior hybrid car.

j_wtf_all_taken 5y ago
But we don't even make use of the little choice that we have. And for example in Germany, you can choose electricity providers that only use renewables.
- TeMPOraL 5y ago
  Because people have neither time nor money for any of this. Most of the population worries about short-term things like "having food on the table", "keeping that job", "keeping myself healthy", "giving my children a better future, so that their lives aren't as hard as mine". We've just signed a new contract with our electricity provider in Poland. Renewable usage didn't even enter the discussion - none of us even realized there's a choice there. Only when reading the details of the agreement I realized the provider is committing themselves to deliver electricity from renewable sources. So now, I'm powering my computer with green energy, and so is likely my entire neighbourhood. Not because any of us made that choice - it's because the power company did. Systemic incentives are what's needed to save us. Getting a power company to go green is much more cost-effective than trying to make an equivalent number of consumers to switch individually.
  - j_wtf_all_taken 5y ago
    > "giving my children a better future, so that their lives aren't as hard as mine" Although they'll have a pretty hard live if we don't do something against climate change. And yes, many people do not have the resources to do these tings. > Because people have neither time nor money for any of this. Many people do not have that, yes. But many others do, and they could start doing it and as they are probably the ones better off, their over-proportional influence as consumers would make a huge difference. Its a complete failure of the "middle class". > Systemic incentives are what's needed to save us. Well yeah, I agree that politics/elections are a better way. Its just that ... we do neither. We do not take our individual responsibilities serious, neither when voting, nor when consuming.
- bluGill 5y ago
  >n Germany, you can choose electricity providers that only use renewables. That is a false choice - unless electricity providers have wires all the way to your house you have no idea where the electricity came from. All you know is they buy enough renewable to cover what you use. However if you didn't use them the renewable power would mostly be generated at the same time anyway, just at a lower cost. The above isn't completely true, as the higher price you pay does get a bit more renewable power into the mix. However overall it isn't a big factor unless most people choose the same provider.
  - j_wtf_all_taken 5y ago
    They're not more expensive. And of course it changes something when enough people change providers, as those providers then have more money to invest in renewables, just as you said. If enough people switch, coal power plants would have to shut down as no one would buy their elecricity.
  - imtringued 5y ago
    >All you know is they buy enough renewable to cover what you use. And where is the problem with that? The coal plant you got your electricity from is the real sucker here because they didn't get paid and more people doing this is a real problem for them.
scatters 5y ago
Did you consider the ability to charge an EV when buying (renting?) your home? Will you factor that in when moving in future? Consumers have more choice than you think; not everyone, but a definite proportion come into a position to make a choice on a continual basis. And economically, it is the margin that matters.
- m4x 5y ago
  What if he had considered EV charging? Or chose to move again this month? Somebody would still be living in his current house and driving a non-EV because that's what's available. These "choices" are largely meaningless. The choices that matter are ones which reduce emissions or waste across society, not for one individual. Upgrading to an EV does little to prevent climate change. Do all new EV owners have their old ICE vehicles responsibly destroyed? No, they mostly just sell them on. All you do by choosing to buy an EV and a house with charging is push the emissions onto somebody else. The important choices, the ones that determine the overwhelming bulk of the outcomes, are being decided by elites and politicians. And they are choosing in the wrong direction.
- 8note 5y ago
  *rich customers have more choice than you think Poor customers go with what they can afford

by Forbo 5y ago

j_wtf_all_taken 5y ago

But we don't even make use of the little choice that we have. And for example in Germany, you can choose electricity providers that only use renewables.

TeMPOraL 5y ago
Because people have neither time nor money for any of this. Most of the population worries about short-term things like "having food on the table", "keeping that job", "keeping myself healthy", "giving my children a better future, so that their lives aren't as hard as mine". We've just signed a new contract with our electricity provider in Poland. Renewable usage didn't even enter the discussion - none of us even realized there's a choice there. Only when reading the details of the agreement I realized the provider is committing themselves to deliver electricity from renewable sources. So now, I'm powering my computer with green energy, and so is likely my entire neighbourhood. Not because any of us made that choice - it's because the power company did. Systemic incentives are what's needed to save us. Getting a power company to go green is much more cost-effective than trying to make an equivalent number of consumers to switch individually.
- j_wtf_all_taken 5y ago
  > "giving my children a better future, so that their lives aren't as hard as mine" Although they'll have a pretty hard live if we don't do something against climate change. And yes, many people do not have the resources to do these tings. > Because people have neither time nor money for any of this. Many people do not have that, yes. But many others do, and they could start doing it and as they are probably the ones better off, their over-proportional influence as consumers would make a huge difference. Its a complete failure of the "middle class". > Systemic incentives are what's needed to save us. Well yeah, I agree that politics/elections are a better way. Its just that ... we do neither. We do not take our individual responsibilities serious, neither when voting, nor when consuming.
bluGill 5y ago
>n Germany, you can choose electricity providers that only use renewables. That is a false choice - unless electricity providers have wires all the way to your house you have no idea where the electricity came from. All you know is they buy enough renewable to cover what you use. However if you didn't use them the renewable power would mostly be generated at the same time anyway, just at a lower cost. The above isn't completely true, as the higher price you pay does get a bit more renewable power into the mix. However overall it isn't a big factor unless most people choose the same provider.
- j_wtf_all_taken 5y ago
  They're not more expensive. And of course it changes something when enough people change providers, as those providers then have more money to invest in renewables, just as you said. If enough people switch, coal power plants would have to shut down as no one would buy their elecricity.
- imtringued 5y ago
  >All you know is they buy enough renewable to cover what you use. And where is the problem with that? The coal plant you got your electricity from is the real sucker here because they didn't get paid and more people doing this is a real problem for them.

scatters 5y ago

Did you consider the ability to charge an EV when buying (renting?) your home? Will you factor that in when moving in future? Consumers have more choice than you think; not everyone, but a definite proportion come into a position to make a choice on a continual basis. And economically, it is the margin that matters.

m4x 5y ago
What if he had considered EV charging? Or chose to move again this month? Somebody would still be living in his current house and driving a non-EV because that's what's available. These "choices" are largely meaningless. The choices that matter are ones which reduce emissions or waste across society, not for one individual. Upgrading to an EV does little to prevent climate change. Do all new EV owners have their old ICE vehicles responsibly destroyed? No, they mostly just sell them on. All you do by choosing to buy an EV and a house with charging is push the emissions onto somebody else. The important choices, the ones that determine the overwhelming bulk of the outcomes, are being decided by elites and politicians. And they are choosing in the wrong direction.
8note 5y ago
*rich customers have more choice than you think Poor customers go with what they can afford