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It's the same thing Apple is doing. They want every device to be a part of a low-power BLE network for Apple AirTags or Amazon Echo Tiles or whatever they are.

It's the same thing Apple is doing. They want every device to be a part of a low-power BLE network for Apple AirTags or Amazon Echo Tiles or whatever they are. They want a huge network so that these small low power devices can use everyones devices to connect to the internet. For what it's worth, the only way to Opt-Out from Apple's broad network like this is to disable all "Find My" network tracking, so you'll never be able to remote control your own phone using its standard radios if you wish to disable the tag network stuff.

Scoundreller 5y ago
To be honest, I find these ad hoc mobile mesh networks fascinating. With cheap flash, we could do a lot of high-latency high-bandwidth data transport with just existing movements. We could eliminate telecoms overnight but we just don’t have the organization to do it. Like, every house used to have a VHF/UHF receiving tower on it.
- FredPret 5y ago
  A content “delivery” network running on human movements. Now that’d be an interesting routing problem.
  - bellyfullofbac 5y ago
    Hah. Well, humans have easily predictable movement patterns right? Home, work, grocery store. Imagine wanting to move data from city A to city B, so they'd decide to do a Tinder match of a girl from City B to this guy from City A, so he'd visit her a lot and be the data conduit...
    - debo_ 5y ago
      This is a terrific idea for a short story.
      - fapjacks 5y ago
        I think "unwitting mule" is something been happening for thousands of years, just with different tools.
  - Scoundreller 5y ago
    Not just human movements, but any movements. In Northern Canada, we have tons of fly-in communities that exclusively use satellite internet. And few good opportunities for caching either. Would be cool to have a seamless system where you put in your Netflix request and a couple days later, the shows arrive because the aircraft has a Pi loaded with SD cards on it and boots at ground level.
    - ByteJockey 5y ago
      They'd just mail you dvds instead. This is what netflix used to do.
      - crtasm 5y ago
        They still do: https://dvd.netflix.com/ https://dvd.netflix.com/
        Scoundreller 5y ago
        In USA.
- drivingmenuts 5y ago
  Does it not also introduce the possibility of introducing possible vulnerabilities by sharing connections? I generally have a pretty good idea of what I’m doing on a network, but now my neighbor might be up to no good on my network and that seems like it would be a potentially big problem.
  - Scoundreller 5y ago
    Depends how it’s structured. At best, you’re like a TOR relay and have no real idea of what’s going in or out. But if you act like an exit node, you could be screwed if you live in a place where an IP is enough to be found guilty and nobody runs a public wifi. But you can always tunnel your outside traffic out over TOR.
- dasudasu 5y ago
  There are tons of cellular network antennas hidden atop buildings in regular urban environments. Thankfully, in the current paradigm, telcos pay rent to put down these antennas and occupy the space.
a4isms 5y ago
The idea of a mesh network is not what concerns most people. It’s the idea that devices from Amazon connect to it automatically and can do whatever they want with it. The canonical anti-example is this: You buy a smart TV, but don’t give it your WiFi password. No problem, it connects to any Amazon device whether in your house or next door, and now it can sell information about what you watch, how many people its camera can see are in the room, words you say aloud in its presence, &c. At the engineering level, Apple’s mesh looks like Amazon’s mesh in exactly the same way that at the engineering level, an iPhone looks a lot like a high-end Android phone. What’s different between them is what Amazon uses its mesh network for, just as what’s different between an iPhone and an Android phone is what Google uses its access to your devices for. Apple obstructs adtech and tracking. Google builds its business on adtech and tracking. Apple uses its mesh network to find items. People fear that Amazon will use its mesh network to spy on you in the name of revenue.
- deanCommie 5y ago
  > People fear that Amazon will use its mesh network to spy on you in the name of revenue. Amazon's track record with privacy and security is much more Apple-esque than Google-esque
- bootaccount 5y ago
  Amazon's Ad business is a monster that is growing faster and faster [1] so they'll want to track and absorb as much data as possible. FireTV is one of the noisiest devices in my home, second only to Roku, constantly phoning home. Selling access to a mesh network to other providers will become an additional source of recurring revenue from what would have otherwise been one time revenue source (hardware sale). It will be no different than Amazon competing w/ FedEx and UPS using it's delivery engine [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/29/amazons-ads-business-nears-7-billion-a-quarter-posts-77percent-growth.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/29/amazons-ads-business-nears-7...
caylus 5y ago
> the only way to Opt-Out from Apple's broad network like this is to disable all "Find My" network tracking, Not true. I just checked on my own phone, and the toggles for "Find My iPhone" and "Find My network" are separate. Disabling the latter only warns you you can't locate your phone "even if it's offline", i.e. if the "standard radio" is off.
katbyte 5y ago
it doesn't seem like the same thing to me at all, one is a very targeted "find a device" api/network that does nothing except allow airtags to send an encrypted "here i am" to a airtag owner while the amazon sidewalk network is "open to everyone and anyone to send anything" - what happens when someone co-ops it as a proxy for hacking? 80kps is enough for an ssh session. It's basically like having a slow unprotected wifi network piggybacking off your connection.

Scoundreller 5y ago

To be honest, I find these ad hoc mobile mesh networks fascinating. With cheap flash, we could do a lot of high-latency high-bandwidth data transport with just existing movements. We could eliminate telecoms overnight but we just don’t have the organization to do it. Like, every house used to have a VHF/UHF receiving tower on it.

FredPret 5y ago
A content “delivery” network running on human movements. Now that’d be an interesting routing problem.
- bellyfullofbac 5y ago
  Hah. Well, humans have easily predictable movement patterns right? Home, work, grocery store. Imagine wanting to move data from city A to city B, so they'd decide to do a Tinder match of a girl from City B to this guy from City A, so he'd visit her a lot and be the data conduit...
  - debo_ 5y ago
    This is a terrific idea for a short story.
    - fapjacks 5y ago
      I think "unwitting mule" is something been happening for thousands of years, just with different tools.
- Scoundreller 5y ago
  Not just human movements, but any movements. In Northern Canada, we have tons of fly-in communities that exclusively use satellite internet. And few good opportunities for caching either. Would be cool to have a seamless system where you put in your Netflix request and a couple days later, the shows arrive because the aircraft has a Pi loaded with SD cards on it and boots at ground level.
  - ByteJockey 5y ago
    They'd just mail you dvds instead. This is what netflix used to do.
    - crtasm 5y ago
      They still do: https://dvd.netflix.com/ https://dvd.netflix.com/
      - Scoundreller 5y ago
        In USA.
drivingmenuts 5y ago
Does it not also introduce the possibility of introducing possible vulnerabilities by sharing connections? I generally have a pretty good idea of what I’m doing on a network, but now my neighbor might be up to no good on my network and that seems like it would be a potentially big problem.
- Scoundreller 5y ago
  Depends how it’s structured. At best, you’re like a TOR relay and have no real idea of what’s going in or out. But if you act like an exit node, you could be screwed if you live in a place where an IP is enough to be found guilty and nobody runs a public wifi. But you can always tunnel your outside traffic out over TOR.
dasudasu 5y ago
There are tons of cellular network antennas hidden atop buildings in regular urban environments. Thankfully, in the current paradigm, telcos pay rent to put down these antennas and occupy the space.

a4isms 5y ago

The idea of a mesh network is not what concerns most people. It’s the idea that devices from Amazon connect to it automatically and can do whatever they want with it. The canonical anti-example is this: You buy a smart TV, but don’t give it your WiFi password. No problem, it connects to any Amazon device whether in your house or next door, and now it can sell information about what you watch, how many people its camera can see are in the room, words you say aloud in its presence, &c. At the engineering level, Apple’s mesh looks like Amazon’s mesh in exactly the same way that at the engineering level, an iPhone looks a lot like a high-end Android phone. What’s different between them is what Amazon uses its mesh network for, just as what’s different between an iPhone and an Android phone is what Google uses its access to your devices for. Apple obstructs adtech and tracking. Google builds its business on adtech and tracking. Apple uses its mesh network to find items. People fear that Amazon will use its mesh network to spy on you in the name of revenue.

deanCommie 5y ago
> People fear that Amazon will use its mesh network to spy on you in the name of revenue. Amazon's track record with privacy and security is much more Apple-esque than Google-esque
bootaccount 5y ago
Amazon's Ad business is a monster that is growing faster and faster [1] so they'll want to track and absorb as much data as possible. FireTV is one of the noisiest devices in my home, second only to Roku, constantly phoning home. Selling access to a mesh network to other providers will become an additional source of recurring revenue from what would have otherwise been one time revenue source (hardware sale). It will be no different than Amazon competing w/ FedEx and UPS using it's delivery engine [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/29/amazons-ads-business-nears-7-billion-a-quarter-posts-77percent-growth.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/29/amazons-ads-business-nears-7...

caylus 5y ago

> the only way to Opt-Out from Apple's broad network like this is to disable all "Find My" network tracking, Not true. I just checked on my own phone, and the toggles for "Find My iPhone" and "Find My network" are separate. Disabling the latter only warns you you can't locate your phone "even if it's offline", i.e. if the "standard radio" is off.

katbyte 5y ago

it doesn't seem like the same thing to me at all, one is a very targeted "find a device" api/network that does nothing except allow airtags to send an encrypted "here i am" to a airtag owner while the amazon sidewalk network is "open to everyone and anyone to send anything" - what happens when someone co-ops it as a proxy for hacking? 80kps is enough for an ssh session. It's basically like having a slow unprotected wifi network piggybacking off your connection.