7 ms·

How much violence in society is a reaction to cumulative rejection? I'd guess a good deal if not most of it. Our ancient lobster-shared neural mechanisms take i

How much violence in society is a reaction to cumulative rejection? I'd guess a good deal if not most of it. Our ancient lobster-shared neural mechanisms take it deadly seriously whether we do consciously or not. From the long perspective of our selfish genes, rejection is a mortal threat. I appreciate the sympathetic treatment of incels in this article, which seems like an exception to the norm. I think most of us can sense the pain that goes with this designation. At least with race or gender based rejection we can see progress and action and a way forward. But how do you deal with rejection that isn't about your group, but is about your personal characteristics, your character and attractiveness? Things you either can't change or would make you someone else if you did? Violence is a loathsome reaction, but not one that's hard to understand. I think that's why incels attract such hate. We usually can't help them, so our empathy becomes just frustration and shared pain. We imagine the mix of anger and depression a lifetime of that would cause us, which leads us to fear them. We reject people for suffering too much rejection, a vicious circle. Yet much rejection is utterly necessary. You can't be a friend, lover or business partner with everyone. We must sometimes cause as well as recieve such deep pain. It's not a solvable problem.

andi999 5y ago
Do you know any peer reviewed scientific paper which confirms the lobster shared neural mechanism? Was looking for evidence for this claim a while back, couldn't find it.
- hirundo 5y ago
  E.g https://www.jneurosci.org/content/17/2/697 https://www.jneurosci.org/content/17/2/697 Homo sapiens have a similar response to seratonin manipulation. I wouldn't call this confirmation, and I'm not sure what I would accept. But I do think it's a compelling association.
virgil_disgr4ce 5y ago
> I think that's why incels attract such hate. I'm pretty sure it's because they are largely unbe-LIEV-ably misogynistic and hateful towards women.
- umanwizard 5y ago
  I don’t think so, because there are plenty of socially normal people who are misogynistic towards women too, and they don’t engender the same level of visceral disgust.
- jcims 5y ago
  Their lived experience, whether perceived or by proxy, is that women hated them first. The 'incel culture' is really just the same echo chamber amplification that the Internet enables with any marginalized group. Some are going to get out and lead a normal life, some are going to lean into it and get more and more detached from reality.
  - teachrdan 5y ago
    > Their lived experience, whether perceived or by proxy, is that women hated them first. How do we define "hate" here? There are incels who literally claim that they are entitled to sex with virginal women who are also extremely conventionally attractive. Does it rise to the level of hate when they are rejected by such women? There have also been incels who have gone on killing sprees and murdered multiple women -- and those killers have then been celebrated by other incels. It is a false equivalence to say, "They hated me, which made me hate them." I know of no cases where women have created a community where they encouraged each other to kill incels and then made heroes of them after the fact. This behavior is specific to incel culture.
    - jcims 5y ago
      >How do we define "hate" here? This is a question we should all ask when the term is used. It's a pet peeve of mine when people throw an unqualified 'hate' around and here I am doing the same thing. Hormones are an extremely powerful, relentless motivator. It requires an equally profound level of rejection to override that signal. When a young person finally admits 'defeat' in seeking a relationship and then sees the person they are interested in select someone that's a polar opposite of them instead, it doesn't just feel like they are being rejected in the instance, but categorically rejected. It's not that 'she doesn't want anything to do with me', it's 'she doesn't want anything to do with anyone like me'. When this happens once, their ego can stomp on that feeling, but when it happens over and over it becomes something broadly categorical in and of itself. That's the feeling I'm referring to as 'hate'. Everything you mention past that is, in my opinion, just applied extremism. If you'll pardon my language, unfuckable guys have existed forever. What's new is the cohort that the Internet in general and social media in particular enable. The basement edgelord not settling for anything less than a perfect 10 is the sexual equivalent of 'diamond hands' in /r/wallstreetbets. It's a signal of tribal allegiance and propped up by selection bias. As far as why there isn't a symmetry between the sexes, there are lots of theories...would love to see some research.
least 5y ago
I think incels attract hate because many of them online become so twisted from their pain that they end up externalizing a lot of the factors that makes them involuntarily celibate, rather than accepting any personal responsibility. Discussions between incels in those communities amplify all the negative things they may be feeling and validates their opinions regardless of how absurd or offensive it may seem from an outside observer. While placing the blame on external factors can be helpful psychologically for the person suffering, it also signals to others that they are not taking any responsibility for their failure to meet their goal of well, having sex. Everyone needs compassion and arguably the worst of us need that compassion the most, but for a lot of people, that's really, really hard.
- hackflip 5y ago
  They aren't unlikeable because they can't get laid. They can't get laid because they are unlikeable.
  - Pet_Ant 5y ago
    > They aren't unlikeable because they can't get laid. They can't get laid because they are unlikeable. Perhaps like ourobouros it feeds it self into a cycle that may amplify an initial bit of bad luck into a toxic cancer that kills it's host? The thing that I discovered about dating is that the more you do it the easier it is and the better you get at it... just like many other things... but there is no way to really start up... and even then you need to get hurt, and try again. One of my most important relationships was with someone really emotionally abusive, but I was well-aware of it, and I took it as a learning opportunity to learn various skills that have served me well.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
nradov 5y ago
Most incel personal characteristics can be changed with a little effort. There's nothing wrong with changing to make yourself into someone else.
- jm__87 5y ago
  My assumption with anyone who wants to succeed at something but is repeatedly failing is that whatever changes they need to make to succeed are not easy or obvious for them - otherwise they would have made the changes already.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
dnautics 5y ago
My personal take is that the Incel phenomenon is not actually about the sexual dynamic, but that society builds a wrong narrative about what the modal heterosexual dynamic is; Incels attract hate because they are working to break the narrative and they have a massive and annoying sense of entitlement. It's not just that we can't help them. It's that we can't help them and there is a kernel of truth to what they are saying. It's also incredibly hard to tell someone to drop their standards.
- leephillips 5y ago
  The claims of incels resemble the complaints of businesses about the shortage of labor, when they are offering only minimum wage.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- rriepe 5y ago
  They're just narcissists. Projection: I'm a virgin so I want virginal women. The other type of projection: I want nice girls so I should be a "nice guy." Impossibly high standards and sense of entitlement: The point is rejecting to get a sense of power or self. Complaining: They'll complain about outcomes but never offer solutions. The incel community is more about attacking untruths. It's like a negatively-defined idea that's close to the truth, but I wouldn't call it a kernel.
  - dnautics 5y ago
    > I'm a virgin so I want virginal women. I have interacted with women that wanted virgin men (not to mention being surprised at the excitement of the woman who took my virginity, I am pretty sure in the end it was not a fantastic experience for her, though we're still friends). I was friend of a bride for a wedding where the man had never even kissed a woman before (the officiant embarassingly brought it up during the ceremony), and was told privately by the bride that this was a plus. > want nice girls so I should be a "nice guy." This is one of the axes where the incels are correct, women since time immemorial have say they want "nice guys". Why would you (publically) say anything else? It's a very pro-social stance to take. I'm not sure that women's preferences actually take nice-guy-dom into account. OTOH, incels insistence that women exclusively like bad guys is probably overreach, though definitely nice guys tend to be less assertive which is very likely a negative quality for the modal heterosexual woman, and since sampling rate matters for raw success dating and sex dynamics, it exacerbates the illusion. (The other axis where the incels are correct is the myth of "there's someone for everyone". Yeah, we should kill that one with fire.) > The point is rejecting to get a sense of power or self. I could be convinced but I'm not sure. I think this is more of a PUA thing. > They'll complain about outcomes but never offer solutions. Very true.
CaptArmchair 5y ago
What's nagging at the back of everyone's head is existential loneliness. Self awareness, the ability to see yourself as a separate entity from the world, comes at a price: understanding that you experience everything utterly alone. That is, you alone experience the feelings that emanate from within you. Sure, you can tell someone you feel sad, you can express joy. But you can't make someone else an integral part of what goes inside you. (Barring telepathy of course) The togetherness we all crave is seeing how other people acknowledge, accept, recognize, validate our existence, and our identity and, most importantly, how we feel and experience life. That happens through actions, language, culture,... in countless ways really. And it gives us a sense of reassurance, acquiescence, confidence, trust,... Rejection, then, is the awareness that the other person doesn't share that sense of reconciling their experience with yours. Either they have a profoundly different experience of life that doesn't align with yours; or they choose to live a different experience from yours. Rejection is par for the course. Humanity isn't like the Borg. 7.8 billion lives each live their own individual of being alive, within their own bubble. You can recognize that you both feel similarly about each other, each within your own experience, and act on those feelings, or you don't. The awareness of this disjointed experiences between you and the other causes discomfort within yourself. It raises questions. And above all, it makes it utterly clear that you are very much alone with yourself and your feelings. What makes all the difference then is in how you deal with those feelings. Regardless of all the advice, therapy, medication,... the hard truth is that you and you alone are confronted with the feelings and emotions that go on inside yourself. It's entirely up to you to face those and to figure out how to approach yourself. You could do that through self soothing, positive affirmation of yourself, showing compassion and kindness towards yourself and so on. Or you could choose self loathing, beating yourself up, talking yourself down, blaming yourself, the rest of the world, the universe and so on. It's entirely your choice. This has absolutely nothing to do with being rejected by others, and everything with how you decide to view and treat yourself. Emotional maturity is about understanding this difference. Having said that, it's important to recognize that people come in all sizes. Emotional maturity isn't 100% a choice. It's also determined by your mental health and your circumstances (upbringing, social economic situation, education, past experiences,...) Even so (and this important) that doesn't mean you are excused from your personal responsibility as to how you deal with your own feelings and emotions. Here's how that works: > I think that's why incels attract such hate. I mentioned that everyone looks towards each other for validation, recognition, acknowledgement and so on, right? This works both ways. If you choose to indulge in utter self loathing, and you decide to express that by behaving in a destructive fashion towards yourself and other people, well, the vast majority of people won't recognize their own experience in that... and simply walk away in an effort their own mental and physical integrity. It's not "hate", it's called "guarding your own boundaries". And has absolutely nothing to do with discrimination. You aren't being discriminated because you are somehow "less attractive". People simply walk away because they perceive you as emotional immature and your behavior as threatening. Discrimination, however, is a different ballgame. That would be actively invalidating the experience and the existence of others through violent behavior. Simply because you feel, you are convinced, that the other doesn't fit in your own experience of life, your own view of the world, your own beliefs and you decide to act out on those feelings... And that's absolutely not what happens when you get rejected over a job interview, or a date.
watwut 5y ago
> ow much violence in society is a reaction to cumulative rejection Given how much violence happens in relationships or between people sho closely know each other, this is unlikely. Even mass murderers and such dont really fit this stereotype. Not even Elliot Roger whose communication issues run super deep, but ultimately forcing girl to date him would not fix him. Elliot Roger was not actually rejected by a girl, not even once.

andi999 5y ago

Do you know any peer reviewed scientific paper which confirms the lobster shared neural mechanism? Was looking for evidence for this claim a while back, couldn't find it.

hirundo 5y ago
E.g https://www.jneurosci.org/content/17/2/697 https://www.jneurosci.org/content/17/2/697 Homo sapiens have a similar response to seratonin manipulation. I wouldn't call this confirmation, and I'm not sure what I would accept. But I do think it's a compelling association.

virgil_disgr4ce 5y ago

> I think that's why incels attract such hate. I'm pretty sure it's because they are largely unbe-LIEV-ably misogynistic and hateful towards women.

umanwizard 5y ago
I don’t think so, because there are plenty of socially normal people who are misogynistic towards women too, and they don’t engender the same level of visceral disgust.
jcims 5y ago
Their lived experience, whether perceived or by proxy, is that women hated them first. The 'incel culture' is really just the same echo chamber amplification that the Internet enables with any marginalized group. Some are going to get out and lead a normal life, some are going to lean into it and get more and more detached from reality.
- teachrdan 5y ago
  > Their lived experience, whether perceived or by proxy, is that women hated them first. How do we define "hate" here? There are incels who literally claim that they are entitled to sex with virginal women who are also extremely conventionally attractive. Does it rise to the level of hate when they are rejected by such women? There have also been incels who have gone on killing sprees and murdered multiple women -- and those killers have then been celebrated by other incels. It is a false equivalence to say, "They hated me, which made me hate them." I know of no cases where women have created a community where they encouraged each other to kill incels and then made heroes of them after the fact. This behavior is specific to incel culture.
  - jcims 5y ago
    >How do we define "hate" here? This is a question we should all ask when the term is used. It's a pet peeve of mine when people throw an unqualified 'hate' around and here I am doing the same thing. Hormones are an extremely powerful, relentless motivator. It requires an equally profound level of rejection to override that signal. When a young person finally admits 'defeat' in seeking a relationship and then sees the person they are interested in select someone that's a polar opposite of them instead, it doesn't just feel like they are being rejected in the instance, but categorically rejected. It's not that 'she doesn't want anything to do with me', it's 'she doesn't want anything to do with anyone like me'. When this happens once, their ego can stomp on that feeling, but when it happens over and over it becomes something broadly categorical in and of itself. That's the feeling I'm referring to as 'hate'. Everything you mention past that is, in my opinion, just applied extremism. If you'll pardon my language, unfuckable guys have existed forever. What's new is the cohort that the Internet in general and social media in particular enable. The basement edgelord not settling for anything less than a perfect 10 is the sexual equivalent of 'diamond hands' in /r/wallstreetbets. It's a signal of tribal allegiance and propped up by selection bias. As far as why there isn't a symmetry between the sexes, there are lots of theories...would love to see some research.

least 5y ago

I think incels attract hate because many of them online become so twisted from their pain that they end up externalizing a lot of the factors that makes them involuntarily celibate, rather than accepting any personal responsibility. Discussions between incels in those communities amplify all the negative things they may be feeling and validates their opinions regardless of how absurd or offensive it may seem from an outside observer. While placing the blame on external factors can be helpful psychologically for the person suffering, it also signals to others that they are not taking any responsibility for their failure to meet their goal of well, having sex. Everyone needs compassion and arguably the worst of us need that compassion the most, but for a lot of people, that's really, really hard.

hackflip 5y ago
They aren't unlikeable because they can't get laid. They can't get laid because they are unlikeable.
- Pet_Ant 5y ago
  > They aren't unlikeable because they can't get laid. They can't get laid because they are unlikeable. Perhaps like ourobouros it feeds it self into a cycle that may amplify an initial bit of bad luck into a toxic cancer that kills it's host? The thing that I discovered about dating is that the more you do it the easier it is and the better you get at it... just like many other things... but there is no way to really start up... and even then you need to get hurt, and try again. One of my most important relationships was with someone really emotionally abusive, but I was well-aware of it, and I took it as a learning opportunity to learn various skills that have served me well.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]

nradov 5y ago

Most incel personal characteristics can be changed with a little effort. There's nothing wrong with changing to make yourself into someone else.

jm__87 5y ago
My assumption with anyone who wants to succeed at something but is repeatedly failing is that whatever changes they need to make to succeed are not easy or obvious for them - otherwise they would have made the changes already.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

dnautics 5y ago

My personal take is that the Incel phenomenon is not actually about the sexual dynamic, but that society builds a wrong narrative about what the modal heterosexual dynamic is; Incels attract hate because they are working to break the narrative and they have a massive and annoying sense of entitlement. It's not just that we can't help them. It's that we can't help them and there is a kernel of truth to what they are saying. It's also incredibly hard to tell someone to drop their standards.

leephillips 5y ago
The claims of incels resemble the complaints of businesses about the shortage of labor, when they are offering only minimum wage.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
rriepe 5y ago
They're just narcissists. Projection: I'm a virgin so I want virginal women. The other type of projection: I want nice girls so I should be a "nice guy." Impossibly high standards and sense of entitlement: The point is rejecting to get a sense of power or self. Complaining: They'll complain about outcomes but never offer solutions. The incel community is more about attacking untruths. It's like a negatively-defined idea that's close to the truth, but I wouldn't call it a kernel.
- dnautics 5y ago
  > I'm a virgin so I want virginal women. I have interacted with women that wanted virgin men (not to mention being surprised at the excitement of the woman who took my virginity, I am pretty sure in the end it was not a fantastic experience for her, though we're still friends). I was friend of a bride for a wedding where the man had never even kissed a woman before (the officiant embarassingly brought it up during the ceremony), and was told privately by the bride that this was a plus. > want nice girls so I should be a "nice guy." This is one of the axes where the incels are correct, women since time immemorial have say they want "nice guys". Why would you (publically) say anything else? It's a very pro-social stance to take. I'm not sure that women's preferences actually take nice-guy-dom into account. OTOH, incels insistence that women exclusively like bad guys is probably overreach, though definitely nice guys tend to be less assertive which is very likely a negative quality for the modal heterosexual woman, and since sampling rate matters for raw success dating and sex dynamics, it exacerbates the illusion. (The other axis where the incels are correct is the myth of "there's someone for everyone". Yeah, we should kill that one with fire.) > The point is rejecting to get a sense of power or self. I could be convinced but I'm not sure. I think this is more of a PUA thing. > They'll complain about outcomes but never offer solutions. Very true.

CaptArmchair 5y ago

What's nagging at the back of everyone's head is existential loneliness. Self awareness, the ability to see yourself as a separate entity from the world, comes at a price: understanding that you experience everything utterly alone. That is, you alone experience the feelings that emanate from within you. Sure, you can tell someone you feel sad, you can express joy. But you can't make someone else an integral part of what goes inside you. (Barring telepathy of course) The togetherness we all crave is seeing how other people acknowledge, accept, recognize, validate our existence, and our identity and, most importantly, how we feel and experience life. That happens through actions, language, culture,... in countless ways really. And it gives us a sense of reassurance, acquiescence, confidence, trust,... Rejection, then, is the awareness that the other person doesn't share that sense of reconciling their experience with yours. Either they have a profoundly different experience of life that doesn't align with yours; or they choose to live a different experience from yours. Rejection is par for the course. Humanity isn't like the Borg. 7.8 billion lives each live their own individual of being alive, within their own bubble. You can recognize that you both feel similarly about each other, each within your own experience, and act on those feelings, or you don't. The awareness of this disjointed experiences between you and the other causes discomfort within yourself. It raises questions. And above all, it makes it utterly clear that you are very much alone with yourself and your feelings. What makes all the difference then is in how you deal with those feelings. Regardless of all the advice, therapy, medication,... the hard truth is that you and you alone are confronted with the feelings and emotions that go on inside yourself. It's entirely up to you to face those and to figure out how to approach yourself. You could do that through self soothing, positive affirmation of yourself, showing compassion and kindness towards yourself and so on. Or you could choose self loathing, beating yourself up, talking yourself down, blaming yourself, the rest of the world, the universe and so on. It's entirely your choice. This has absolutely nothing to do with being rejected by others, and everything with how you decide to view and treat yourself. Emotional maturity is about understanding this difference. Having said that, it's important to recognize that people come in all sizes. Emotional maturity isn't 100% a choice. It's also determined by your mental health and your circumstances (upbringing, social economic situation, education, past experiences,...) Even so (and this important) that doesn't mean you are excused from your personal responsibility as to how you deal with your own feelings and emotions. Here's how that works: > I think that's why incels attract such hate. I mentioned that everyone looks towards each other for validation, recognition, acknowledgement and so on, right? This works both ways. If you choose to indulge in utter self loathing, and you decide to express that by behaving in a destructive fashion towards yourself and other people, well, the vast majority of people won't recognize their own experience in that... and simply walk away in an effort their own mental and physical integrity. It's not "hate", it's called "guarding your own boundaries". And has absolutely nothing to do with discrimination. You aren't being discriminated because you are somehow "less attractive". People simply walk away because they perceive you as emotional immature and your behavior as threatening. Discrimination, however, is a different ballgame. That would be actively invalidating the experience and the existence of others through violent behavior. Simply because you feel, you are convinced, that the other doesn't fit in your own experience of life, your own view of the world, your own beliefs and you decide to act out on those feelings... And that's absolutely not what happens when you get rejected over a job interview, or a date.

watwut 5y ago

> ow much violence in society is a reaction to cumulative rejection Given how much violence happens in relationships or between people sho closely know each other, this is unlikely. Even mass murderers and such dont really fit this stereotype. Not even Elliot Roger whose communication issues run super deep, but ultimately forcing girl to date him would not fix him. Elliot Roger was not actually rejected by a girl, not even once.