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> The total energy usage shouldn't be much of an issue as we'll move electricity use from refineries to charging batteries Don't forget about the taxation aspe

> The total energy usage shouldn't be much of an issue as we'll move electricity use from refineries to charging batteries Don't forget about the taxation aspect - as the sales of petrol and diesel fall, so does the tax revenue. In many countries tax represents over half of the end-user price of petrol and diesel. How will governments replace this as the revenue drops away?

MaheshC 5y ago
Tax on electricity?
- novaRom 5y ago
  It exists in Germany and it drives electricity price to the top. Current price for private households is around 0.4 Euro per kilowatt hour (0.5 US Dollars). Large part of it are taxes. Household electricity prices in 2020: https://www.statista.com/statistics/263492/electricity-prices-in-selected-countries/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/263492/electricity-price...
  - imtringued 5y ago
    The chart you linked shows $0.36 per kWh.
    - Dma54rhs 5y ago
      Add VAT to it as well.
- theshrike79 5y ago
  Taxing electricity will hit households first (electric heating + AC) before it makes a significant dent on EV costs.
ljm 5y ago
Increase road tax on currently subsidised cars and invest in public transport infra?
Cthulhu_ 5y ago
They could start actually taxing companies. In the Netherlands, extra taxes (on top of VAT) levied on fuel and vices like tobacco and alcohol put about 11 billion euros a year into the state coffers. Meanwhile, big tech companies funnel money through the country to tax havens. Uber had 50 shell companies in the Netherlands to dodge taxes on 6 billion in revenue (https://www.businessinsider.com/uber-tax-avoidance-50-dutch-shell-companies-5-billion-revenue-2021-5 https://www.businessinsider.com/uber-tax-avoidance-50-dutch-...).
- derekp7 5y ago
  I always wondered why human people have an alternative minimum tax (AMT), yet corporate people don't.
  - xvilka 5y ago
    Because all businesses will just leave to those countries where it isn't the case. Such policies should be subtle and introduced gradually.
    - derekp7 5y ago
      But the businesses will still need a presence in the countries in which they want to do business (or at least it is easier to do so -- that is how US companies get caught up in needing to comply with things like GDPR or whatnot). So the AMT can be legislated for any company that has a presence in a particular country.
millerm 5y ago
Regarding tax revenue. In many states in the U.S. they “simply” nail you on your yearly registration fee. It’s an awful system as it’s punitive at the moment. I now pay over $200 a year on that fee due to it being an electric vehicle. My car is 2 years old with < 12k miles on it. I pay way more in taxes than I would with a petroleum fueled car.
- exhilaration 5y ago
  Just to play devil's advocate, why shouldn't you pay? Fuel taxes mostly go to road maintenance. You're using the roads so higher registration fees seem like a good way for you to help fund those roads. Also $200 is a pretty good deal, I pay way more than that in gas taxes each year.
bserge 5y ago
By taxing electric cars. (Back to) taxing per KW/HP or just raising the other taxes, I guess. Why would they give up that income?
zip1234 5y ago
In the US today usage based taxes such as gas fund only half the money spent on roads. They should probably add in some sort of usage tax based on weight/size/emissions/noise that will apply to all vehicles.
neilwilson 5y ago
"Don't forget about the taxation aspect - as the sales of petrol and diesel fall, so does the tax revenue." I'm amazed this myth persists for those in floating currency areas. Money doesn't stop at its first use. Instead the money is spent on something else, which is taxed. For every $100 a government spends it will get $100 back for any positive tax rate. It's a simple geometric progression, and looks just like a stone skipping across a pond. Do the maths and you'll see what I mean. What stops that tax turning up instantly is that it takes time to spend the money - sometimes a long time. Which is what we generally call 'savings'. None of that matters though in a sovereign currency area. Savings are functionally voluntary taxation - which from the other side of the balance sheet are called 'borrowing'. Once you have the causality straight in your mind fearing running out of tax revenue is like fearing you're running out of water in the hot tub just because you've turned the pump on.
audunw 5y ago
> Don't forget about the taxation aspect - as the sales of petrol and diesel fall, so does the tax revenue. That depends on whether people put the money they save in a savings account, or actually spend them on other taxable goods and services. And it depends on the tax rate on fuel and electricity in that country. Fun fact, the consumer tax on electricity is much higher than that on fuel in Norway (and the fuel tax is pretty steep already here). But electricity is so cheap that it's still extremely affordable. And obviously, an EV will spend much less money on electricity, so yes, the revenue from tax on electricity will be lower. But there's another side of the equation. Norway recently found out they could save millions on reduced ventilation requirements when building a new tunnel. It's also likely that health care costs will be reduced, although that's harder to measure. IMO, governments should just increase other taxes if they have budget troubles due to the shift to EVs. Preferably higher taxes on the wealthy. Then we can slowly work on finding ways to tax according to actual road use. Maybe more toll roads, or maybe a tamper-proof device that measures and reports miles driven.
- logifail 5y ago
  > That depends on whether people put the money they save [..] Talking about the money people will save could be termed somewhat off-message given that it appears EVs cost significantly more up-front than the ICE equivalent... "Switching to an electric vehicle still has many barriers, including high upfront costs"[0] "Expensive prices for electric cars could hold back the UK’s transition from fossil fuel vehicles, the industry has warned, amid signs that demand for electric vehicles (EVs) is waning"[1] Over the entire lifetime of the vehicle it may be a completely different story, but how many vehicle purchasers are really planning five to ten years ahead? [0] https://www.bbc.com/news/business-56441639 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-56441639 [1] https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/sep/04/higher-price-of-electric-cars-a-concern-for-more-than-half-of-uk-consumers https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/sep/04/higher-p...

MaheshC 5y ago

Tax on electricity?

novaRom 5y ago
It exists in Germany and it drives electricity price to the top. Current price for private households is around 0.4 Euro per kilowatt hour (0.5 US Dollars). Large part of it are taxes. Household electricity prices in 2020: https://www.statista.com/statistics/263492/electricity-prices-in-selected-countries/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/263492/electricity-price...
- imtringued 5y ago
  The chart you linked shows $0.36 per kWh.
  - Dma54rhs 5y ago
    Add VAT to it as well.
theshrike79 5y ago
Taxing electricity will hit households first (electric heating + AC) before it makes a significant dent on EV costs.

ljm 5y ago

Increase road tax on currently subsidised cars and invest in public transport infra?

Cthulhu_ 5y ago

They could start actually taxing companies. In the Netherlands, extra taxes (on top of VAT) levied on fuel and vices like tobacco and alcohol put about 11 billion euros a year into the state coffers. Meanwhile, big tech companies funnel money through the country to tax havens. Uber had 50 shell companies in the Netherlands to dodge taxes on 6 billion in revenue (https://www.businessinsider.com/uber-tax-avoidance-50-dutch-shell-companies-5-billion-revenue-2021-5 https://www.businessinsider.com/uber-tax-avoidance-50-dutch-...).

derekp7 5y ago
I always wondered why human people have an alternative minimum tax (AMT), yet corporate people don't.
- xvilka 5y ago
  Because all businesses will just leave to those countries where it isn't the case. Such policies should be subtle and introduced gradually.
  - derekp7 5y ago
    But the businesses will still need a presence in the countries in which they want to do business (or at least it is easier to do so -- that is how US companies get caught up in needing to comply with things like GDPR or whatnot). So the AMT can be legislated for any company that has a presence in a particular country.

millerm 5y ago

Regarding tax revenue. In many states in the U.S. they “simply” nail you on your yearly registration fee. It’s an awful system as it’s punitive at the moment. I now pay over $200 a year on that fee due to it being an electric vehicle. My car is 2 years old with < 12k miles on it. I pay way more in taxes than I would with a petroleum fueled car.

exhilaration 5y ago
Just to play devil's advocate, why shouldn't you pay? Fuel taxes mostly go to road maintenance. You're using the roads so higher registration fees seem like a good way for you to help fund those roads. Also $200 is a pretty good deal, I pay way more than that in gas taxes each year.

bserge 5y ago

By taxing electric cars. (Back to) taxing per KW/HP or just raising the other taxes, I guess. Why would they give up that income?

zip1234 5y ago

In the US today usage based taxes such as gas fund only half the money spent on roads. They should probably add in some sort of usage tax based on weight/size/emissions/noise that will apply to all vehicles.

neilwilson 5y ago

"Don't forget about the taxation aspect - as the sales of petrol and diesel fall, so does the tax revenue." I'm amazed this myth persists for those in floating currency areas. Money doesn't stop at its first use. Instead the money is spent on something else, which is taxed. For every $100 a government spends it will get $100 back for any positive tax rate. It's a simple geometric progression, and looks just like a stone skipping across a pond. Do the maths and you'll see what I mean. What stops that tax turning up instantly is that it takes time to spend the money - sometimes a long time. Which is what we generally call 'savings'. None of that matters though in a sovereign currency area. Savings are functionally voluntary taxation - which from the other side of the balance sheet are called 'borrowing'. Once you have the causality straight in your mind fearing running out of tax revenue is like fearing you're running out of water in the hot tub just because you've turned the pump on.

audunw 5y ago

> Don't forget about the taxation aspect - as the sales of petrol and diesel fall, so does the tax revenue. That depends on whether people put the money they save in a savings account, or actually spend them on other taxable goods and services. And it depends on the tax rate on fuel and electricity in that country. Fun fact, the consumer tax on electricity is much higher than that on fuel in Norway (and the fuel tax is pretty steep already here). But electricity is so cheap that it's still extremely affordable. And obviously, an EV will spend much less money on electricity, so yes, the revenue from tax on electricity will be lower. But there's another side of the equation. Norway recently found out they could save millions on reduced ventilation requirements when building a new tunnel. It's also likely that health care costs will be reduced, although that's harder to measure. IMO, governments should just increase other taxes if they have budget troubles due to the shift to EVs. Preferably higher taxes on the wealthy. Then we can slowly work on finding ways to tax according to actual road use. Maybe more toll roads, or maybe a tamper-proof device that measures and reports miles driven.

logifail 5y ago
> That depends on whether people put the money they save [..] Talking about the money people will save could be termed somewhat off-message given that it appears EVs cost significantly more up-front than the ICE equivalent... "Switching to an electric vehicle still has many barriers, including high upfront costs"[0] "Expensive prices for electric cars could hold back the UK’s transition from fossil fuel vehicles, the industry has warned, amid signs that demand for electric vehicles (EVs) is waning"[1] Over the entire lifetime of the vehicle it may be a completely different story, but how many vehicle purchasers are really planning five to ten years ahead? [0] https://www.bbc.com/news/business-56441639 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-56441639 [1] https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/sep/04/higher-price-of-electric-cars-a-concern-for-more-than-half-of-uk-consumers https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/sep/04/higher-p...