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It's a little disheartening to read most of the comments in this thread. They sound a lot like the complaints about the lack of the tank stations during the tra

It's a little disheartening to read most of the comments in this thread. They sound a lot like the complaints about the lack of the tank stations during the transition from horse power to ICE.

kortilla 5y ago
> They sound a lot like the complaints about the lack of the tank stations during the transition from horse power to ICE. How so? With ICE engines you just bring an extra tank of fuel if you’re going somewhere without fuel stations.
- dzhiurgis 5y ago
  There's more power sockets than fuel stations
  - philshem 5y ago
    Yeah exactly. We have a very large and robust electrical grid, with amazing geographical coverage.
    - galangalalgol 5y ago
      Is recharging on 110 even a thing? Even on a 50A RV socket you are talking 12hr recharge.
      - theshrike79 5y ago
        12 hours to recharge is still faster than "not at all" with an ICE. You don't need to charge EVs to 100%, just get enough to reliably get to the nearest fast charger on the way back. The rule of thumb is: if you can run an electric kettle, you can charge an EV. If there really are people who are actually driving to places with no electricity that are over 200km from a charger, then they can stick to ICEs for a while.
        packetlost 5y ago
        There are a lot of people in rural America with long distance, high towing capacity needs that won't be able to use EVs (or afford a new vehicle at all) for a long time.
        theshrike79 5y ago
        The F-150 Lightning has a 300 mile EPA range, with a 1000 pound load. If that's not enough and stopping for a 15 minute charge every 290 miles is not an option, then you really need an ICE :)
        packetlost 5y ago
        It doesn't work like that. 1000lbs is not a very large payload and you will not get 290 miles of range from 15 minutes at a quick charger. Even a Tesla supercharger (level 3) only gives you 170 miles~ after 30 minutes, and that's on a smaller vehicle with a smaller battery.
        dzhiurgis 5y ago
        Not yet, not now. CCS maxes out at 350kw. Add 2-4 of charge ports for larger vehicle and you get 350kwh in 15 minutes.
      - chipsa 5y ago
        Minimum charge speed on my EV is 8A on 120V. And, I'm frequently using it on 120V, because my wife is normally hogging the 240V charger.
  - kortilla 5y ago
    Read the comment. We’re talking about locations that don’t have gas stations. There won’t be gas stations or sockets. Cross country highway trips on two lane roads, back country driving, etc.
fullshark 5y ago
A reflection of how the article is shallow and has no discussion on the very real challenges adoption faces, just an “it’s just like the internet” analysis featuring an s curve.
oblio 5y ago
The first larger production of ICE automobiles was in 1888, with Benz. The first automobile with a wider impact was Ford Model T, 1908, 20 years later. And car ownership only took over after WW2, some 60 years after Benz. With EVs I guess Prius was the Benz moment and Tesla was Model T. Even with today's accelerated rate of tech progress, I'd be surprised if EV are 50-50 with ICEs faster than 2035.
- WorldMaker 5y ago
  WW2 is an important mark in that history because following it was a massive infrastructure investment in roads intended primarily for cars, and consequentially investment in gas stations and fast food along such roads. EVs don't need to reinvent the car-primary road, nor do they need to reinvent fast food and road tourism. A lot of comments here and elsewhere get bogged down in problems of reinventing the gas station but get stuck on trees and miss the forest that we don't need to reinvent the business model (gas stations made their highest margins by partnering with convenience stores and fast food operators and encouraging longer, healthier breaks), nor do we need to reinvent the electric grid (maybe we'll need investments into it, but not substantial reinvention), nor do we need to match the volume of existing gas stations because home charging shifts the economic equation drastically. We don't need another WW2-level event "in forty years" to rapidly shift to EV. We may only need to see the right "snowball" conditions, and I feel like they are more likely than not, and possibly are going to be surprisingly faster than a lot of people expect. If only EVs are sold by 2030 (as current manufacturers mostly expect) there will be a drastic shift in vehicle supply. That may potentially snowball into larger supply issues with the overall ICE supply chain. As suppliers leave ICE part niches, that will open holes in repair and maintenance supplies, increasing ICE vehicle maintenance costs [ETA: which will have snowball effects on the prices of used ICE vehicles]. I also think that even brief hiccups in gasoline demand will see prices spike, in turn causing more hiccups and shifts in demand. As patterns of demand changes shift, low margin gas stations will get out of the game entirely. Higher margin stations become more likely to hedge their bets with fewer pumps and more electric chargers (and continued/increased reliance on convenience storefronts, grocery stores, and fast food margins). Range anxiety for ICE vehicles will return with a vengeance. I think/hope it will happen a lot faster than people expect given the inherent complexities of gasoline supply chains and how much of "last mile" of gasoline pumps and stations are already operating on drastic, razor thin margins (and have been for decades). (Also, the EV1 in 1996 might more accurately be the "Benz moment" than the Prius.)
philshem 5y ago
I agree. There is a great old talk from Rory Sutherland called “Life Lessons from an Ad Man” [0] which is worth a watch in regards to our perception of value. Especially relevant is the anecdote about improving the train journey between Brussels and London, which is toward the start of the video. Edit: I guess my unstated point is that we should be looking to improve the user journey, not necessarily match the existing technology. For example, I take public transport because I can read or even sleep, and not because it’s faster or cheaper than taking my own car. [0] https://www.ted.com/talks/rory_sutherland_life_lessons_from_an_ad_man https://www.ted.com/talks/rory_sutherland_life_lessons_from_...
JohnWhigham 5y ago
I want electric vehicles, but I don't want all the auxiliary Internet connection/tracking that will come with it. Fuck all that shit.
- durnygbur 5y ago
  Unfortunately this has become a standard even for ICE cars and producers are considering this a selling point. "Hey Google, feed me with sponsored POIs as I drive through the city". Just imagine... an unskippable ad on the dashboard touchscreen.
- tachyonbeam 5y ago
  I'm pretty sure you can opt to not pay the monthly fee to have an internet connection in your car, if you get a Tesla.
  - meowster 5y ago
    I'm not familiar with the option, but that doesn't sound like it garauntees that Tesla won't still use it for their own purposes.
    - tachyonbeam 5y ago
      There's an option to limit data sharing as well.
- theshrike79 5y ago
  Not all EVs have an "auxiliary internet connection". My car only has a SIM for an one-way SOS button. Tesla is the only one that has it in all cars, because they use their fleet to train their neural networks.
- benhurmarcel 5y ago
  Just don't buy a Tesla. There are other options.
helloguillecl 5y ago
I fully agree with you. We also tend to stick to old paradigms, like "the grid will not take it", ignoring that you could build a much more flexible grid and distributed electric generation infrastructure.
- pydry 5y ago
  Which isn't even that expensive.
- theshrike79 5y ago
  Smart Grids have been a thing for a good 20 years now. They're actually a reality in many many countries, people just don't know it since it doesn't affect their everyday lives in any way. Mostly issues about EV charging aren't technical, but political.
oxplot 5y ago
Gotta realize that 99% of people like drama, love to see others fail and say they said so, and that's OK. Much like how Tesla no longer has a press department, we should just focus on the work and people will catch up eventually.
matt_s 5y ago
If you've seen any local governments try to get something like light rail projects moving in a metro area that doesn't have it, maybe you'd understand. Infrastructure problems aren't unsolvable because of lack of technical ways to accomplish, its usually other issues not related to the solutions.

It's a little disheartening to read most of the comments in this thread. They sound a lot like the complaints about the lack of the tank stations during the transition from horse power to ICE.

kortilla 5y ago

> They sound a lot like the complaints about the lack of the tank stations during the transition from horse power to ICE. How so? With ICE engines you just bring an extra tank of fuel if you’re going somewhere without fuel stations.

dzhiurgis 5y ago
There's more power sockets than fuel stations
- philshem 5y ago
  Yeah exactly. We have a very large and robust electrical grid, with amazing geographical coverage.
  - galangalalgol 5y ago
    Is recharging on 110 even a thing? Even on a 50A RV socket you are talking 12hr recharge.
    - theshrike79 5y ago
      12 hours to recharge is still faster than "not at all" with an ICE. You don't need to charge EVs to 100%, just get enough to reliably get to the nearest fast charger on the way back. The rule of thumb is: if you can run an electric kettle, you can charge an EV. If there really are people who are actually driving to places with no electricity that are over 200km from a charger, then they can stick to ICEs for a while.
      - packetlost 5y ago
        There are a lot of people in rural America with long distance, high towing capacity needs that won't be able to use EVs (or afford a new vehicle at all) for a long time.
        theshrike79 5y ago
        The F-150 Lightning has a 300 mile EPA range, with a 1000 pound load. If that's not enough and stopping for a 15 minute charge every 290 miles is not an option, then you really need an ICE :)
        packetlost 5y ago
        It doesn't work like that. 1000lbs is not a very large payload and you will not get 290 miles of range from 15 minutes at a quick charger. Even a Tesla supercharger (level 3) only gives you 170 miles~ after 30 minutes, and that's on a smaller vehicle with a smaller battery.
        dzhiurgis 5y ago
        Not yet, not now. CCS maxes out at 350kw. Add 2-4 of charge ports for larger vehicle and you get 350kwh in 15 minutes.
    - chipsa 5y ago
      Minimum charge speed on my EV is 8A on 120V. And, I'm frequently using it on 120V, because my wife is normally hogging the 240V charger.
- kortilla 5y ago
  Read the comment. We’re talking about locations that don’t have gas stations. There won’t be gas stations or sockets. Cross country highway trips on two lane roads, back country driving, etc.

fullshark 5y ago

A reflection of how the article is shallow and has no discussion on the very real challenges adoption faces, just an “it’s just like the internet” analysis featuring an s curve.

oblio 5y ago

The first larger production of ICE automobiles was in 1888, with Benz. The first automobile with a wider impact was Ford Model T, 1908, 20 years later. And car ownership only took over after WW2, some 60 years after Benz. With EVs I guess Prius was the Benz moment and Tesla was Model T. Even with today's accelerated rate of tech progress, I'd be surprised if EV are 50-50 with ICEs faster than 2035.

WorldMaker 5y ago
WW2 is an important mark in that history because following it was a massive infrastructure investment in roads intended primarily for cars, and consequentially investment in gas stations and fast food along such roads. EVs don't need to reinvent the car-primary road, nor do they need to reinvent fast food and road tourism. A lot of comments here and elsewhere get bogged down in problems of reinventing the gas station but get stuck on trees and miss the forest that we don't need to reinvent the business model (gas stations made their highest margins by partnering with convenience stores and fast food operators and encouraging longer, healthier breaks), nor do we need to reinvent the electric grid (maybe we'll need investments into it, but not substantial reinvention), nor do we need to match the volume of existing gas stations because home charging shifts the economic equation drastically. We don't need another WW2-level event "in forty years" to rapidly shift to EV. We may only need to see the right "snowball" conditions, and I feel like they are more likely than not, and possibly are going to be surprisingly faster than a lot of people expect. If only EVs are sold by 2030 (as current manufacturers mostly expect) there will be a drastic shift in vehicle supply. That may potentially snowball into larger supply issues with the overall ICE supply chain. As suppliers leave ICE part niches, that will open holes in repair and maintenance supplies, increasing ICE vehicle maintenance costs [ETA: which will have snowball effects on the prices of used ICE vehicles]. I also think that even brief hiccups in gasoline demand will see prices spike, in turn causing more hiccups and shifts in demand. As patterns of demand changes shift, low margin gas stations will get out of the game entirely. Higher margin stations become more likely to hedge their bets with fewer pumps and more electric chargers (and continued/increased reliance on convenience storefronts, grocery stores, and fast food margins). Range anxiety for ICE vehicles will return with a vengeance. I think/hope it will happen a lot faster than people expect given the inherent complexities of gasoline supply chains and how much of "last mile" of gasoline pumps and stations are already operating on drastic, razor thin margins (and have been for decades). (Also, the EV1 in 1996 might more accurately be the "Benz moment" than the Prius.)

philshem 5y ago

I agree. There is a great old talk from Rory Sutherland called “Life Lessons from an Ad Man” [0] which is worth a watch in regards to our perception of value. Especially relevant is the anecdote about improving the train journey between Brussels and London, which is toward the start of the video. Edit: I guess my unstated point is that we should be looking to improve the user journey, not necessarily match the existing technology. For example, I take public transport because I can read or even sleep, and not because it’s faster or cheaper than taking my own car. [0] https://www.ted.com/talks/rory_sutherland_life_lessons_from_an_ad_man https://www.ted.com/talks/rory_sutherland_life_lessons_from_...

JohnWhigham 5y ago

I want electric vehicles, but I don't want all the auxiliary Internet connection/tracking that will come with it. Fuck all that shit.

durnygbur 5y ago
Unfortunately this has become a standard even for ICE cars and producers are considering this a selling point. "Hey Google, feed me with sponsored POIs as I drive through the city". Just imagine... an unskippable ad on the dashboard touchscreen.
tachyonbeam 5y ago
I'm pretty sure you can opt to not pay the monthly fee to have an internet connection in your car, if you get a Tesla.
- meowster 5y ago
  I'm not familiar with the option, but that doesn't sound like it garauntees that Tesla won't still use it for their own purposes.
  - tachyonbeam 5y ago
    There's an option to limit data sharing as well.
theshrike79 5y ago
Not all EVs have an "auxiliary internet connection". My car only has a SIM for an one-way SOS button. Tesla is the only one that has it in all cars, because they use their fleet to train their neural networks.
benhurmarcel 5y ago
Just don't buy a Tesla. There are other options.

helloguillecl 5y ago

I fully agree with you. We also tend to stick to old paradigms, like "the grid will not take it", ignoring that you could build a much more flexible grid and distributed electric generation infrastructure.

pydry 5y ago
Which isn't even that expensive.
theshrike79 5y ago
Smart Grids have been a thing for a good 20 years now. They're actually a reality in many many countries, people just don't know it since it doesn't affect their everyday lives in any way. Mostly issues about EV charging aren't technical, but political.

oxplot 5y ago

Gotta realize that 99% of people like drama, love to see others fail and say they said so, and that's OK. Much like how Tesla no longer has a press department, we should just focus on the work and people will catch up eventually.

matt_s 5y ago

If you've seen any local governments try to get something like light rail projects moving in a metro area that doesn't have it, maybe you'd understand. Infrastructure problems aren't unsolvable because of lack of technical ways to accomplish, its usually other issues not related to the solutions.