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Chinese ‘Artificial Sun’ experimental fusion reactor sets world record
- feniv 5y agoNot the same reactor, but this high speed video gives a great perspective inside a fusion reactor. https://youtu.be/IhHsOwLdCu4 https://youtu.be/IhHsOwLdCu4
- wiz21c 5y agoThis video is so scifi.... Moreover I don't know why my gut feeling was "it looks so reassuring"... Do you know why it pulses ? And what are the little point-lights running around from time to time ?
- superkuh 5y agoThe little lights are probably tiny bits of metal dust or slivers exploding off the walls due to local electrical potentials.
- aphextron 5y agoPretty meaningless without data on the input power, isn't it?
- dylan604 5y agomaybe if you're trying to make money from it. if you're just trying to see if it's possible in a pure research mindset, then seems like success
- aphextron 5y ago>maybe if you're trying to make money from it. if you're just trying to see if it's possible in a pure research mindset, then seems like success My point is not about money. Plenty of research groups have achieved sustained fusion without net power generation. But if this is simply a linear scaling of input power based on existing techniques, there's nothing remarkable here.
- dylan604 5y agoThey successfully held a temperature of 120 million degrees. That's not impressive? This seems like the experiment was more about the magnets and the temperature than it was about generating electricity. Small moves Ellie, small moves.
- chemeng 5y agoI imagine this was about exploring part of the fusion triple product. Which is very valuable as reaching the time/temp/density point for ignition is when generation even starts to become feasible. This article doesn’t say anything about density which is unfortunate. But showing proof of containing plasma at that temp for a longer amount of time than anyone else has (previous was KSTAR I think?) is an accomplishment.
- seoaeu 5y agoThere's tons of research trying to figure out how to achieve various feats. Not because the researchers are curious whether it is possible "in a pure research mindset" but because they accomplishing their goal is a stepping stone to industrially useful applications.
- dylan604 5y ago"held plasma at a temperature of 120 million degrees Celsius for 101 seconds and at the even hotter temperature of 160 million degrees Celsius for another 20 seconds." at the end of that 121 seconds, did some one decide it was long enough and then powered it down and then why? did it fail, and that's why it stopped? if it failed, what does (would) that look like?
- superkuh 5y agoIt is probably limited by heating of the diverter section where there's a magnetic x-point and plasma escape really tests the heat limits of materials. One of EAST's (and many Tokomak reactor's) main objectives is testing diverter materials and shapes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divertor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divertor
- jimmyed 5y agoCan this be verified? Coming from a Pakistani news outlet, I am not so sure.
- pvg 5y agoThe source is Sputnik a Russian state outlet which itself quotes Global Times, a PRC state outlet. https://sputniknews.com/asia/202105281083022763-chinese-artificial-sun-experimental-fusion-reactor-sets-world-record-for-superheated-plasma-time/ https://sputniknews.com/asia/202105281083022763-chinese-arti... https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202105/1224755.shtml https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202105/1224755.shtml
- FooBarWidget 5y agoNitpick: Global Times is not a state outlet. More info on what it is, and why being subject to Chinese media law and being a state outlet are different things, and what the actual differences are: "Facts and Myths about Global Times, the most misunderstood publication in China": https://beijingchannel.substack.com/p/facts-and-myths-about-global-times https://beijingchannel.substack.com/p/facts-and-myths-about-...
- pvg 5y agoI'm not seeing anything in the piece that suggests that it isn't. VOA is state media but doesn't necessarily represent the official positions of the US government.
- dartharva 5y agoIrrespective of lineage, you'll realize after reading its homepage and articles that it most certainly acts as a state outlet.
- FooBarWidget 5y agoJust because its homepage articles have opinions that often align with actual state outlets, doesn't mean it acts as a state outlet. Many of those perspectives are shared by regular Chinese people. If you don't believe me maybe you should visit China and talk to some people to confirm.
- mgarfias 5y agoWhy are we needing fusion reactors to see 100M+ degrees if the center of a basic bitch star is only 15m? (Serious question here)
- donkarma 5y agoFrom my understanding, stars get to cheat to get a lot of pressure by just being really big, whereas we have to do it with lots of fancy techniques
- speed_spread 5y agoHum, aren't we the ones cheating, then?
- anonytrary 5y agoThere is no cheating in nature. If it works, it works.
- thaumasiotes 5y agoI found a humorous essay years ago on the topic "should performance-enhancing drugs be allowed in math?" Can't find it now.
- anonytrary 5y agoWhatever it takes for them! Nature will course correct if amphetamines hurt math professors to the point where they can no longer contribute to math. As of right now, it seems to be helping them.
- ProjectArcturis 5y agoIt's not about temperature, it's about pressure. The only way to achieve the pressure needed for fusion on earth is to heat up the plasma much hotter than the sun.
- rndmind 5y agoS. Korea recently set a world record at ,300 million Celsius for a sustained 70 seconds.https://www.sciencealert.com/another-nuclear-fusion-record-just-got-broken-in-south-korea https://www.sciencealert.com/another-nuclear-fusion-record-j...
- noobermin 5y agoRead the citation you gave sensing the direct contradiction with the article and the 300M C (over 25KeV) is the reported peak (from the article, "up to" 300M C) while the "stable plasma" at an unspecified temperature was sustained for 70s. The OP cites KSTAR as having the previous record but at a lower temp. It also says "100M C for 20 seconds" so I'm assuming the 70s number refers to a temperature graph that had some temperature but they had a bump that exceeded 100M C for a width of 20s in the overall time of 70s.
- ggm 5y agosaid in another context, which talked about "dumping waste heat" -Surely the whole point of fusion is to extract useful energy, and unless I'm missing some MHD path, the energy it is going to emit we can use is heat energy: these things will drive turbines. Right? So this "x MW for y seconds" thing needs to be come "z MW sustained forever" if we're going to extract usable energy, to heat steam, to drive turbines. I mean sure: you can run an awesome laser off an explosion. Its no way to light your room up to read a book.
- japanuspus 5y agoPulsed energy is no limitation. As an example the internal combustion piston engine has had some success despite running in cycles with discrete energy pulses. This even with a continuous/cycle-free alternative being available in the form of gas turbines.
- ggm 5y agoThe flywheel is doing a lot of heavy lifting in an ICE. But sure, Freeman Dyson would agree with "Orion" the case in point. Gas turbine always excited me as a propulsion unit for trains and cars. Never quite got traction, great shame. Certainly, from Ferranti/Parsons onwards, it has been a stalwart of highly efficient electric generation. Diesel backup has the advantage of speed, but I think most standby power now which can't be done as hydro or battery is gas-turbine, with Diesel as an alternate fuel: not bang-bang-go. I'm talking at scale. Sure, a honda jennie is a good thing to have when the power is out. OK. I'm kind of there: How about we fire off a classic fission device every 5 years, and power the electricity supply off the heat we soak into the surrounding rocks? Jokes aside, what is the future power take-off from fusion expected to be? If its not consumption of the neutrons, directly, in some electro-magnetic pathway to usable power, its almost certainly conversion of heat energy into another form. Not-a-barrier aside Do you think they're -> aiming <- for pulses of that energy? If not, what is the plan?
- jjk166 5y ago> OK. I'm kind of there: How about we fire off a classic fission device every 5 years, and power the electricity supply off the heat we soak into the surrounding rocks? That actually was the original plan, although you needed to detonate one every few days instead of every few years. The initial experiments detonated them in salt mines but the explosions did too much damage and couldn't be reliably contained, so the plan switched to a large steel cavity partially filled with water. Unfortunately the cost of nuclear weapons was far too high to produce power competitively and you'd get a substantial buildup of fission waste. This led to the idea of using lasers instead of fission to initiate the fusion reaction, which in turn developed into modern inertial confinement fusion (ICF). And yes, for tokamaks they are aiming for pulsed energy.
- jtchang 5y agoSeeing humanity achieve net fusion in my lifetime would be a total game changer and repoint a good chunk of our future. Things like this make me think we are closer than most people imagine if only because climate change is pushing is hard in this direction. Not only are the economics starting to make sense but also the political will to make this a reality before we all roast due to climate change.
- lambdasquirrel 5y agoIt's nice to see advancements like this but I'm not sure that they will come soon enough for climate change. We needed to move on that yesterday. The industrialized countries need to sort out their safer fission options as a stopgap measure, and it's something we can start moving on immediately.
- nopinsight 5y agoIf cheap energy from fusion becomes reality, it would open up many possibilities, including carbon capture techniques that are currently impractical.
- shakezula 5y agoThese are already cheap enough with current fission tech. It’s just that no one cares enough to do it.
- japanuspus 5y agoIf only everyone has been as radically rational back in the 1970's when the greenhouse effect was generally dismissed as an argument for nuclear (fission) power, we would have had a half century head start.
- alexgmcm 5y agoWhy not both? Fusion research budgets are a tiny, almost negligible, fraction of GDP as it is. We aren't so starved for cash we have to choose between fusion or fission - but that might mean less money for wars, the ultra-rich etc.
- a-dub 5y agocan this puhleazze be the next space race? pretty please?
- anotheryou 5y agoLike that? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STtXdpD8LtM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STtXdpD8LtM
- adrianN 5y agoDid they actually fuse anything, or was this just a test with a non-fusing plasma?
- travisgriggs 5y agoIf I've learned anything in the last 20 "get off my lawn" years of my life, this (fusion) thing will continue to make slow progress, until someone figures out how to marry fusion with The Surveillance Economy (e.g. some sort of AdTech) and then it will rapidly take off. OK, got that (cynicism) off my chest. This is exciting to see. Fusion machines are like physics porn for me. Does anyone have any more links on this actual facility?
- redis_mlc 5y agoNote that Pakistan is a vassal state of China for financial reasons, and also to avoid escalation of their border and water disputes. So news reports from a .pk TLD are suspect. (That's the main reason you haven't seen Pakistan support Muslims in China. Pakistan can't afford to get righteous or say a peep.)
- frr149 5y agoThe article reads like CCP propaganda.
- cromwellian 5y agoAlcator C-Mod has been setting records like this for a long time, only with Pressure and Confinement, instead of Temperature and Confinement. IIRC, you need Pressure, Temperature, and Confinement time to be above the critical threshold. (eg. high temperature means nothing if your density is very low, you've barely got any gas) So it's not clear this actually can be scaled to fusion. I'll note that MIT's ARC reactor design (SPARC first), seems on track to deliver all three, and in a much more compact body, and with a liquid molten lithium salt blanket design that might actually be workable, and maintainable (e.g. serviced). However, there's still the problem of helium "ash" and other by products produced by fusion, and how to remove them. It's not a problem now because after 100 seconds, you're emptying the entire chamber, but this means you can only "pulse" the fusion reaction, you can't run a continuous reaction, unless you figure out a way to clean out the products of the reaction, and no one has demonstrated that as yet I'm away. Perhaps the divertor design the Chinese have come up with can do that, but I feel like they would have publicized it as it is a long standing problem.
- Andy-AO 5y agoThis reflects China's industrial strength, but it is not clear whether such small progress has practical value.In a word, it's better to work hard than not.
- anotheryou 5y agoImpressive times! I remember the wendelstein 7x saying getting rid of the heat is the challenge and if you can suck it up a whole 5 seconds or something you can almost do it indefinitely. They did 120 seconds!