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The blanket statement "Advertisement does not work", which I really hope is a strawman, is trivially wrong. If you start a new B2C business the only way to do i

by tormeh 5y ago

The blanket statement "Advertisement does not work", which I really hope is a strawman, is trivially wrong. If you start a new B2C business the only way to do inbound sales is advertisement, as by definition no one knows about your company/brand/products/services. Outbound sales is (usually) impossible in B2C for cost reasons. Almost every successful B2C company is evidence that advertisement works. There are some exceptions like banking and utilities, where the LTV of a retail customer is high enough to do outbound sales, but most B2C companies can't afford this.

iwitaly 5y ago
+1
amelius 5y ago
Only under the assumption that no alternatives to advertising exist. Ban advertising, and suddenly this statement is not true anymore: "If you start a new B2C business the only way to do inbound sales is advertisement, as by definition no one knows about your company/brand/products/services." ... for the simple reason that people will look for other means to find products online. For example non-biased search engines, product catalogues, review sites, etc. etc. And no, listing your product with objective info is not the same as advertising.
- tgv 5y ago
  And then those other means will become commercially very interesting and you'll have to buy your way into them. But let's assume advertising doesn't work. Two companies start with the same product and same market at the same time. One advertises, the other doesn't. According to you, the former one should lose, because it wastes money on ads. I'm betting that (on average), the latter will lose, though. I know, it's a very black-and-white hypothetical situation.
  - nlh 5y ago
    Heh we wrote basically the same reply at exactly the same moment. Cheers :)
  - amelius 5y ago
    The whole problem we should avoid is that people have to pay for advertising. The best product should win, not the one with the biggest advertising budget. Advertising undermines the principles of the free market.
    - spullara 5y ago
      How do you think people find out about these products to compare them?
- nlh 5y ago
  > For example non-biased search engines, product catalogues, review sites, etc. etc. This absolutely makes logical sense and I deeply wish this could work. The problem is that in reality, almost all of these sites are as (if not more) “manipulatable” as the ads you’d like to replace. Search engines have their own optimization games, most review sites these days are pay-to-play (or would rapidly become even more so), etc. So the fundamental issue is that any non-advertising method of getting the word out rapidly becomes just obfuscated advertising. Given the choice I’d prefer at least the ads be honest about being ads.
  - amelius 5y ago
    Yes, these sites could be manipulated but that is then a second-order effect.
ayewo 5y ago
> If you start a new B2C business the only way to do inbound sales is advertisement, as by definition no one knows about your company/brand/products/services. This is not strictly true. Inbound sales is one tactic, there is also inbound marketing (aka SEO). The tactic or set of tactics available to a new B2C business largely depends on what trade offs they are willing to make between time and money. A cash-strapped B2C could invest time in SEO, while a decently-funded competitor could invest money in paid search ads. A well-funded rival could do both while also investing in social media ads. The tactics that will prove effective will largely depend on how clear the messaging is relative to more established competitors. > Outbound sales is (usually) impossible in B2C for cost reasons. Almost every successful B2C company is evidence that advertisement works. Again, not totally correct because you are using terms in a non-standard way. For instance, you refer to ‘advertisement’ when you really mean ‘marketing’. Sales and marketing as human activities, have existed from the beginning. Advertisements, the thing so derided on HN, only became feasible (and widespread) with the help technology. In other words, all ad forms depend on a enabling technology for their existence. The spread of printing presses eventually made one of the first ad formats—handbills—economically feasible when compared to the traditional practice of shouting to draw attention from patrons to the market square. The telephone made telesales/robocalls economically feasible at a scale that far surpasses doing cold calls on foot (i.e. door-to-door sales). Same with radio, television and ad formats enabled by the modern Web.

by tormeh 5y ago

iwitaly 5y ago

amelius 5y ago

Only under the assumption that no alternatives to advertising exist. Ban advertising, and suddenly this statement is not true anymore: "If you start a new B2C business the only way to do inbound sales is advertisement, as by definition no one knows about your company/brand/products/services." ... for the simple reason that people will look for other means to find products online. For example non-biased search engines, product catalogues, review sites, etc. etc. And no, listing your product with objective info is not the same as advertising.

tgv 5y ago
And then those other means will become commercially very interesting and you'll have to buy your way into them. But let's assume advertising doesn't work. Two companies start with the same product and same market at the same time. One advertises, the other doesn't. According to you, the former one should lose, because it wastes money on ads. I'm betting that (on average), the latter will lose, though. I know, it's a very black-and-white hypothetical situation.
- nlh 5y ago
  Heh we wrote basically the same reply at exactly the same moment. Cheers :)
- amelius 5y ago
  The whole problem we should avoid is that people have to pay for advertising. The best product should win, not the one with the biggest advertising budget. Advertising undermines the principles of the free market.
  - spullara 5y ago
    How do you think people find out about these products to compare them?
nlh 5y ago
> For example non-biased search engines, product catalogues, review sites, etc. etc. This absolutely makes logical sense and I deeply wish this could work. The problem is that in reality, almost all of these sites are as (if not more) “manipulatable” as the ads you’d like to replace. Search engines have their own optimization games, most review sites these days are pay-to-play (or would rapidly become even more so), etc. So the fundamental issue is that any non-advertising method of getting the word out rapidly becomes just obfuscated advertising. Given the choice I’d prefer at least the ads be honest about being ads.
- amelius 5y ago
  Yes, these sites could be manipulated but that is then a second-order effect.

ayewo 5y ago

> If you start a new B2C business the only way to do inbound sales is advertisement, as by definition no one knows about your company/brand/products/services. This is not strictly true. Inbound sales is one tactic, there is also inbound marketing (aka SEO). The tactic or set of tactics available to a new B2C business largely depends on what trade offs they are willing to make between time and money. A cash-strapped B2C could invest time in SEO, while a decently-funded competitor could invest money in paid search ads. A well-funded rival could do both while also investing in social media ads. The tactics that will prove effective will largely depend on how clear the messaging is relative to more established competitors. > Outbound sales is (usually) impossible in B2C for cost reasons. Almost every successful B2C company is evidence that advertisement works. Again, not totally correct because you are using terms in a non-standard way. For instance, you refer to ‘advertisement’ when you really mean ‘marketing’. Sales and marketing as human activities, have existed from the beginning. Advertisements, the thing so derided on HN, only became feasible (and widespread) with the help technology. In other words, all ad forms depend on a enabling technology for their existence. The spread of printing presses eventually made one of the first ad formats—handbills—economically feasible when compared to the traditional practice of shouting to draw attention from patrons to the market square. The telephone made telesales/robocalls economically feasible at a scale that far surpasses doing cold calls on foot (i.e. door-to-door sales). Same with radio, television and ad formats enabled by the modern Web.