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Not true at all, most Western Europe 100k$ (80k EUR) is barely above average, you'd still be firmly middle class even on two such incomes, sky high would be at
by reader_mode 5y ago
Not true at all, most Western Europe 100k$ (80k EUR) is barely above average, you'd still be firmly middle class even on two such incomes, sky high would be at least twice that much.
- bluescrn 5y agoMedian income in the UK is just over £30k (about 35k EUR)
- reader_mode 5y agoAnd London ?
- CRConrad 5y agoWTF does that have to do with anything? Isn't this whole discussion about how the WMF shouldn't be based in the fricking most overpriced city they can find?
- reader_mode 5y agoYeah you're going to get amazing executive candidates in Wales for eg., background in sheep herding and farm management will translate to running Wikipedia quite nicely I think.
- apercu 5y agoWe're on hacker news. What is the median for people in UK that that do what we do?
- crimsoneer 5y agoHonestly, not that much higher...i think? I'm a data science person so not dev, but feel like salaries above 65k or so not hugely common?
- M2Ys4U 5y ago£44k according to the April 2020 release of the Annual Survey for Hours and Earnings by the Office for National Statistics. That is the figure for "programmers and software development professionals", anyway.
- MaKey 5y agoWhat? In Germany an income of 80k EUR will put you into the top 10% of all earners, so you will be upper class. Especially on two such incomes.
- reader_mode 5y agoYou just prove my point - top 10% is not sky high ? It's what you would expect for a professional in demand. And unless you have savings that income puts you in upper middle class, you can afford a nice lifestyle, but you won't be buying any luxury cars or high end homes. Sky high is at least top 1%. Maybe top 5% in high income areas. In Eastern Europe you begin to approach this at 80k.
- heavyset_go 5y ago> In Germany an income of 80k EUR will put you into the top 10% of all earners, so you will be upper class. Upper middle class maybe. People in the upper class don't need to work.
- MaKey 5y agoNo, upper class if you go by the definition of the German Economic Institute [0]. [0] https://www.iwkoeln.de/en.html https://www.iwkoeln.de/en.html
- max_hammer 5y agoAt 11 years of engineering experience I am getting `66K` annual salary in Berlin. But rent is getting crazy here, a 60 sqm apartment will cost you 1300+ utility.
- jiofih 5y agoYou have no idea what you’re talking about. Average salaries in WE are 25-40k.
- reader_mode 5y agoFor what casheers and janitors ? I'm talking about highly skilled professionals. If your making 80k you're making an average in that group, it's certainly not sky high
- benhurmarcel 5y agoA junior engineer (with a Masters) in most of western Europe makes 30-40k€/year before taxes. After 10 years, he'll make 50-70k€/year.
- reader_mode 5y agoIf you have a masters, >3 years of experience and aren't making 50-70k in Wester Europe, you either don't put emphasis on your career, or you need to switch jobs and work on your negotiation skills.
- benhurmarcel 5y agoIn Germany and Scandinavia maybe. In France, Spain, Italy, etc, this is normal. For example here [1] you can see some reliable statistics for France, see page 2 (it's in French but the plots are easy to understand). The median salary (annual before taxes) when starting is 35k€, and roughly increases by 1800€/year. So it only reaches 40k€ after 3 years. It reaches 50k€ after 8 years only. Also all engineers have Masters in continental Europe. You can't be an engineer without one. It's nothing special. [1] https://www.iesf.fr/offres/doc_inline_src/752/IESF_Synthese_EnqueteIESF2020.pdf https://www.iesf.fr/offres/doc_inline_src/752/IESF_Synthese_...
- reader_mode 5y agoSorry I assumed we're talking about Software Engineering here, I accept your point. But Italy and Spain aren't really what I would consider Western Europe, they are the less developed parts and I admit I have no experience with France and know nobody who works there.
- iSnow 5y ago80k annually works out to 6700 EUR/m If Wikipedia(1) is semi-accurate, no (ZERO) major European county surpasses this. Not even Switzerland which clocks in at 70k EUR. And that's average, the mean is even lower due to skew by those making top money. (1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage#Gross_average_monthly_salaries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_...
- IQunder130 5y agoMean and average are the same thing. You might be referring to the median instead.
- iSnow 5y agoYes, thanks.
- reader_mode 5y agoIn Europe that nets you about 50-60% after mandatory pension, health insurance and income tax. You listed net incomes. 6.7 gross will be >4k net And slap 20-25% VAT on top. That money is really not that much, a generalist MD would make that for eg.
- iSnow 5y agoI specifically linked to gross income, it's 5882 EUR/m in Switzerland according to Wikipedia, or 70.5K EUR annually. Germany is 48k EUR gross, around 30k net.
- reader_mode 5y agoSorry it scrolled up for me. To be considered sky high in my book you need to be actually rich - able to afford luxuries such as own a luxury home, driving a premium car, be able to rent a yacht for a vacation - you need to be making >150k for your income to be noteworthy, otherwise you're just doing well off - higher middle class. Sorry but there's nothing sky high about earning 80k EUR per year and living in London, Zurich, Oslo, Amsterdam, Munich, etc. you barely stand out, especially if you socialise with other college educated workers, you're probably the norm or below it for career people.
- x3ro 5y agoThis is absolute bogus. Here's [1] data from 2019. With about 3500 Euros net income (works out to about 75k before tax if you're single) You're in the top 10% _of all households_. With two times that (so two e.g. a household of two people earning 80k) you'd be in the top 1%. [1]: https://www.iwkoeln.de/fileadmin/user_upload/HTML/2019/einkommensverteilung/index.html https://www.iwkoeln.de/fileadmin/user_upload/HTML/2019/einko... PS: Data is for Germany.
- reader_mode 5y agoI'm sure 100k is a lot in rural Alabama as well. How about giving numbers for say Munich[1] ? > Also from the diagram, 75% of the population are earning less than 10,400 EUR while 25% are earning more than 10,400 EUR. If 25% of the city is making more money than you you are not rich by any definition. I have friends living in Munich, friend is a SW engineer, makes 75k, his wife has her own business so I'm not sure how much she makes, they are very much middle class lifestyle and can't afford to live in the wealthy areas. Sorry to burst your bubble but you're not rich if you make 80k/year, you're just (maybe upper) middle class, even in EU. [1] http://www.salaryexplorer.com/salary-survey.php?loc=982&loctype=3#:~:text=A%20person%20working%20in%20Munchen%20typically%20earns%20around%204%2C200%20EUR,%2C%20transport%2C%20and%20other%20benefits http://www.salaryexplorer.com/salary-survey.php?loc=982&loct....
- x3ro 5y agoI personally live in Hamburg, one of the most expensive cities in Germany, and I've yet to see a developer salary above 90k. Juniors enter around 40k, seniors get around 60-90k depending on experience. That's not to say that salaries beyond 100k don't exist, but they're extremely rare. Edit: Also it's completely unclear to me how this point relates to your initial gross misrepresentation of compensation in western Europe.
- reader_mode 5y agoWhat's my gross misrepresentation ? I said making 80k is not noteworthy at all (we are discussing CEO/exec compensation here not casheer salaries), you just agreed with me. OP suggested that 100k$/year not being noteworthy is a uniquely SV/US thing - it is not. Any place worth living in Europe will take that much to live comfortably (note. 100k USD = 80k EUR)
- drdavid 5y agoI like how y'all are arguing over what a vague term actually means. "Sky high" isn't actually anything specific and it's rather relative. Reading through the thread, almost everyone has their own definition for 'sky high'.