11 ms·

I’m Danish and this is a big scandal, but the reality is, when the US asks you dance like the vassal state you are. We really shouldn’t have bought those f-35

by moksly 5y ago

I’m Danish and this is a big scandal, but the reality is, when the US asks you dance like the vassal state you are. We really shouldn’t have bought those f-35 planes either. They were more expensive, as in a gazillion times more expensive. The delivery schedule was already falling at the time. They were already terrible planes at the time compared to their competition. Most hilarious of all, they don’t actually fit into our small country because they are loud, so the government is still buying up properties in areas that they’ll have to fly over because the noise levels are so illegal they have to let people move away. They are also struggling with what to do with the airspace in one of our Airports, because the only two routes these planes have around it is over the ocean (fine but typically avoided during rain because of the low altitude they fly to avoid the airport) and our second largest city, ooops. Somehow it still won, to no ones surprise. And that’s really just how it is. The US wants bases in Greenland? Well, it’s technically not really Danish territory but we’ll make an exception and to full colonial masters. The US wants a radar thing in one of our commercial airports? Sure! (Since moved to another part of Europe). The us wants access to data on Moslem citizens? sure thing! The US wants direct access to the internet infrastructure? Well why not! I think the only thing we’ve ever really said no to was nuclear missiles.

systemvoltage 5y ago
Respectfully, this sounds like rant (without much substance) and a lot of arm chair military hoo haa. I’ll tell you how this is going to go - HN will vote it to the top just like those discussions about Taiwan invasions. Juicy? Yes, pretty fun. Completely detached from the reality? I wonder what people who are familiar with the matter think. Gellman’s amnesia much! Inevitably it will get into a heated discussion with rocks thrown from a multiple sides, some China whataboutism and voila - you’ve got a bog standard classic flame war. Sigh. Let’s talk about data collection and NSA, please. Not F-35s and nuclear weapons.
- a0-prw 5y ago
  It's not rant. It's justified indignation. We should definitely not have bought those F-35 pieces of shit. I've been saying for years that our politicians are traitors, and yes our military intelligence has aided and abetted a foreign power in spying against Danish interests. Traitors.
  - systemvoltage 5y ago
    It’s just off topic and a beaten horse. Here is another thread on FP on the same topic and a much better discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27338555 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27338555
    - mekkkkkk 5y ago
      In a thread about the US leveraging diplomacy to sway intelligence and military, the F-35 discussion seems to be well on topic. You might be tired of the horse flogging, but that's not really relevant.
- lordnacho 5y ago
  It's been in the Danish broadsheets, the stuff he mentions. I think it's reasonable what his complaints are, it just sounds like a rant because it's so wasteful.
- socialdemocrat 5y ago
  The F35 purchase is part of the outcome of the illegal spying. Or rather there are good reasons to believe so. The US spies to get an upper hand in negotiations like this. It was the same deal in a Norway with F35 and many other cases. When it comes to the US, there are so many irregularities and broken standard procedures.
- flohofwoe 5y ago
  The F-35 purchase is absolutely relevant because the NSA has been caught in similar shenanigans before and even in plain old industrial espionage in other European NATO countries. Not sure how much of the outrage has reached the US, but here are some German sources from 2015 and 2017. I guess if this hadn't been uncovered, Germany would fly F-35s now as well: https://netzpolitik.org/2015/internes-dokument-belegt-bnd-und-bundeskanzleramt-wussten-von-wirtschaftsspionage-der-usa-gegen-deutschland/ https://netzpolitik.org/2015/internes-dokument-belegt-bnd-un... https://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/article162217929/So-spionieren-Geheimdienste-deutsche-Firmen-aus.html https://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/article162217929/So-spioniere... https://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/nsa-airbus-plant-strafanzeige-wegen-industriespionage-a-1031615.html https://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/nsa-airbus-pla...
- tored 5y ago
  It has been previously revealed that this scandal includes espionage against Swedish military industry, like the company SAAB, manufacturer of fighter jet Gripen, competitor of F-35.
lordnacho 5y ago
> I think the only thing we’ve ever really said no to was nuclear missiles. Denmark also politely turned down selling them Greenland. Note American cold war operations had previously contaminated the area around Thule Air Base with nuclear waste. Having nukes there in the first place was also against a Danish policy, but big brother...
- asplake 5y ago
  Referring to this incident, presumably https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_Thule_Air_Base_B-52_crash https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_Thule_Air_Base_B-52_cra...
- mrweasel 5y ago
  In hindsight, Denmark should have sold Greenland after WWII. That would have saves us a ton of grief. The Trump "offer" on the other hand was handled weirdly, Greenland is no longer Denmarks to sell. You can not sell a country you don't own, even if you help support it.
  - Grustaf 5y ago
    In what sense doesn't Denmark own Greenland?
    - lordnacho 5y ago
      They've had had rule since 1978. They do send two members to parliament but they have say over their own matters, and people in Denmark generally agree this should be so. I doubt many Danish people would object if an independence movement were to grow.
    - mrweasel 5y ago
      Perhaps the Faroe Islands are a better example for most. They have pretty much the same status as Greenland, but I doubt that many doesn't view the Faroe Islands as country separate country. Greenland governs it self, with the exception of foreign affairs and defence, and Denmark helps fund everything (around $500 Million per year). In return Denmark gets political influence that we wouldn't have otherwise. Nobody would care what Danish politicians have to say about the arctic, if we didn't hold influence over Greenlands foreign affairs. The yearly economical support to Greenland is honestly the only reason Greenland isn't a fully independent country, but even if they opted manage their own foreign politics and defence, I think many might still want to keep the Danish Queen.
airhead969 5y ago
F-35's are the epitome of the military-industrial complex: unnecessary, overpromised, and underdelivered (faulty, fragile, expensive, late). They should just be called F-111 2.0. It might not be a comedy of errors, but it could be a comedy of a travesty of comedic errors. It's not like there's a competitive marketplace for 5.5th gen fighters or alternatives to strategic, US-flag-waving purchases (NATO / political arm-twisting probably happened). I think a lot of countries want to stay on the US' good side because it's Godzilla, so they'll go along most of the time. In international diplomatic circles, whenever the words "democracy" or "the peace process" get mentioned in press reports, mentally-substitute those with the words "whatever America wants" and it will be accurate 99 times out of 100. Maybe with the ascent of China, the US and China will have to compete and negotiate more for favors than simply demanding unwavering fealty. PS: The first porn mags I ever saw were Danish. I can't say I saw much because that was the era when beavers had full pelts.
socialdemocrat 5y ago
Same deal here in Norway. Lots of irregularities in how the F35 got selected over Swedish SAAB Gripen. And yeah we are also incapable of saying no, to anything it seems. It has been Norwegian policy to not have US bases since end of WWII. But current conservative sell-out government has done it without any national debate. They just give the US an area of Norway where US laws applies. Criticizing the Norwegian alliance and what is being done to placate the US seems politically impossible. It is like a holy cow.
- G3rn0ti 5y ago
  This behavior can all be explained with the threat the Russian state still poses to the neighboring Scandinavian countries. If I were a small country afraid of a larger one I would also try to find me a big brother. We can only hope that Putin will fall one day.
  - tored 5y ago
    Russia is a much smaller threat than the Soviet Union, if bases was not needed during the Cold War, they are definitely not needed now.
    - mike_d 5y ago
      Russia is effectively a criminal enterprise cosplaying as a nation state. Putin is going to die in the next 20 years and create a massive power vacuum. What you'll end up with is a dozen or so "rightful heirs" with some level of control over the military and nuclear arsenals.
      - hulitu 5y ago
        > Russia is effectively a criminal enterprise cosplaying as a nation state. There are a lot of states which are criminal enterprises, US included. There is really no reason for a country like Danemark to bend to US .
        5y ago
truth_ 5y ago
I really dislike how USA bullies people trying to buy Russian S400 anti-aircraft and anti-missile systems. S400s are effective against their best aircrafts. And they don't want other countries to have it. So they threaten sanction and people have to play along.
- alkonaut 5y ago
  It's a complex issue. It's not just money involved, buying a long term "system" means you are reliant on relations for spares and support. This puts into question the willingness of (e.g.) Turkey as a NATO country to upset Russia. NATO is a defense pact, which in reality means a military industrial pact too. There is no way to entirely separate the manufacturing and acquisition of military gear, from the treaty where it's supposed to be used.
  - KMag 5y ago
    Wasn't there also at one point a proposal for a F-35 maintenance facility in Turkey? Having that kind of access to F-35 information and being potentially beholden to a manufacturer of the main threat to the F-35 sounds like a huge intelligence leak just waiting to happen.
  - buran77 5y ago
    The US does its best to prevent allies from having any kind of military technology outside of US control, particularly if it's effective. Allegiances aren't set in stone and the US won't take the chance to see that tech used against them. [0] https://tech.slashdot.org/story/03/12/01/1226207/galileo-system-to-include-jamming-capability https://tech.slashdot.org/story/03/12/01/1226207/galileo-sys... [1] https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2003/dec/08/world.internationaleducationnews https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2003/dec/08/world.internation...
- adriancr 5y ago
  I don't see how it's a good idea to buy air defense from a potential enemy you have... the country NATO was created to defend against... It will surely protect you against them and not be used to sabotage/spy on you.
nathias 5y ago
Same thing is true for the rest of Europe or at least the part that's in NATO.
alkonaut 5y ago
Buying a slightly less suitable and more expensive but still rather capable plane might still be "cheap" if it buys you a NATO umbrella. It would make technical and economical sense to buy a Swedish fighter, but it perhaps doesn't make diplomatic sense (and I say that as a Swedish taxpayer).
- coldtea 5y ago
  >if it buys you a NATO umbrella A NATO umbrella is something that is enforced upon you, not something you "buy", unless one is stuck to cold war logic.
threwaway4392 5y ago
The US tax authorities want automated data collection from EU banks about all "US persons"? Sure, that's FATCA. Reciprocity? Nope, US banks don't send anything back.
- krzyk 5y ago
  That's actually good, I don't want my government to look at my money.
  - etripe 5y ago
    Also, EU citizens aren't expected to pay tax to their home country when they live abroad. I've been led to believe Americans are.
    - ckolkey 5y ago
      That's correct, American citizens are required to pay tax to the IRS regardless of their residency. However, you can deduct something like $106,000 from your yearly income if it's already been taxed, to avoid double-taxation of income.
      - gspr 5y ago
        Yes, around 106k USD, but this exemption applies only to EARNED income. The definition of earned income is quite narrow. This can cause a massive headache. The way the US deals with taxation abroad is a travesty. I for one will be renouncing my citizenship because of it. Few countries deal with emigration in a perfectly hassle-free way, but the US makes living a life in any other country impossible if at any point you rely on income that isn't bog standard salary.
    - Broken_Hippo 5y ago
      Definitely - to a point. You pay local taxes first, but if they aren't high enough, you still have to pay US taxes. If you are married to someone of a different nationality, you cannot use online tax filing services without the spouse getting a number from the US government and reporting their income as well - even if they have never lived or worked in the US. So it turns out that living in Norway means that I have to file paper taxes any year I work, but generally don't have to pay since Norway's taxes are high enough. If I lived somewhere with a low tax rate, I'd have to file and pay taxes. Note: In general, I don't have to pay All taxes. We have Federal, state, and local taxes - they are generally only concerned with paying federal taxes while I live overseas. This also means that someone might still pay a lower tax rate overseas, depending on the state that they came from and the type of income they receive.
grammers 5y ago
> I’m Danish and this is a big scandal, but the reality is, when the US asks you dance like the vassal state you are. That's so true, and one major reason why we need a powerful EU. Not sure if we'll make it though - with 27 different opinions and interests.
- nivenkos 5y ago
  The EU never stands up for itself anyway. Never supports its own Tech companies, etc.
coldtea 5y ago
>I’m Danish and this is a big scandal, but the reality is, when the US asks you dance like the vassal state you are. Don't fret over it. The Swedes had to build up BS charges against Assange on the US behalf...
elric 5y ago
Similar deal in Belgium. We have US nukes (against the will of the citizenry, but what can you do...). We were pretty much forced to buy the overpriced F-35s, while the rest of our military is basically falling apart. When the NSA hacked the Belgium-based SWIFT banking system, the government pretty much looked the other way. There was a bit of a token response. But in the end, the puppet state danced to the tune of its puppet master.
whodidntante 5y ago
American here. I agree we are a bully. However, you have no basis for complaint unless/until you want to get off the american military tit. Based on a 2.5% GDP differential in military expenditures, the EU would be paying out an extra $350B a year to protect itself. America should leave NATO, keep the EU cultural/trade relationship, and reduce our military budget by that amount, which would pay for our much needed "infrastructure" projects. Would have been $7T in the last two decades alone. According to the progressive theory, this would solve all of our social issues without increasing our deficit. And our world might be a better place to live in. Unfortunately, neither the Americans nor the Europeans would consider doing this. You can of course decide to have less military, and pay less. Ask the Ukrainians about that.

by moksly 5y ago

systemvoltage 5y ago

Respectfully, this sounds like rant (without much substance) and a lot of arm chair military hoo haa. I’ll tell you how this is going to go - HN will vote it to the top just like those discussions about Taiwan invasions. Juicy? Yes, pretty fun. Completely detached from the reality? I wonder what people who are familiar with the matter think. Gellman’s amnesia much! Inevitably it will get into a heated discussion with rocks thrown from a multiple sides, some China whataboutism and voila - you’ve got a bog standard classic flame war. Sigh. Let’s talk about data collection and NSA, please. Not F-35s and nuclear weapons.

a0-prw 5y ago
It's not rant. It's justified indignation. We should definitely not have bought those F-35 pieces of shit. I've been saying for years that our politicians are traitors, and yes our military intelligence has aided and abetted a foreign power in spying against Danish interests. Traitors.
- systemvoltage 5y ago
  It’s just off topic and a beaten horse. Here is another thread on FP on the same topic and a much better discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27338555 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27338555
  - mekkkkkk 5y ago
    In a thread about the US leveraging diplomacy to sway intelligence and military, the F-35 discussion seems to be well on topic. You might be tired of the horse flogging, but that's not really relevant.
lordnacho 5y ago
It's been in the Danish broadsheets, the stuff he mentions. I think it's reasonable what his complaints are, it just sounds like a rant because it's so wasteful.
socialdemocrat 5y ago
The F35 purchase is part of the outcome of the illegal spying. Or rather there are good reasons to believe so. The US spies to get an upper hand in negotiations like this. It was the same deal in a Norway with F35 and many other cases. When it comes to the US, there are so many irregularities and broken standard procedures.
flohofwoe 5y ago
The F-35 purchase is absolutely relevant because the NSA has been caught in similar shenanigans before and even in plain old industrial espionage in other European NATO countries. Not sure how much of the outrage has reached the US, but here are some German sources from 2015 and 2017. I guess if this hadn't been uncovered, Germany would fly F-35s now as well: https://netzpolitik.org/2015/internes-dokument-belegt-bnd-und-bundeskanzleramt-wussten-von-wirtschaftsspionage-der-usa-gegen-deutschland/ https://netzpolitik.org/2015/internes-dokument-belegt-bnd-un... https://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/article162217929/So-spionieren-Geheimdienste-deutsche-Firmen-aus.html https://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/article162217929/So-spioniere... https://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/nsa-airbus-plant-strafanzeige-wegen-industriespionage-a-1031615.html https://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/nsa-airbus-pla...
tored 5y ago
It has been previously revealed that this scandal includes espionage against Swedish military industry, like the company SAAB, manufacturer of fighter jet Gripen, competitor of F-35.

lordnacho 5y ago

> I think the only thing we’ve ever really said no to was nuclear missiles. Denmark also politely turned down selling them Greenland. Note American cold war operations had previously contaminated the area around Thule Air Base with nuclear waste. Having nukes there in the first place was also against a Danish policy, but big brother...

asplake 5y ago
Referring to this incident, presumably https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_Thule_Air_Base_B-52_crash https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_Thule_Air_Base_B-52_cra...
mrweasel 5y ago
In hindsight, Denmark should have sold Greenland after WWII. That would have saves us a ton of grief. The Trump "offer" on the other hand was handled weirdly, Greenland is no longer Denmarks to sell. You can not sell a country you don't own, even if you help support it.
- Grustaf 5y ago
  In what sense doesn't Denmark own Greenland?
  - lordnacho 5y ago
    They've had had rule since 1978. They do send two members to parliament but they have say over their own matters, and people in Denmark generally agree this should be so. I doubt many Danish people would object if an independence movement were to grow.
  - mrweasel 5y ago
    Perhaps the Faroe Islands are a better example for most. They have pretty much the same status as Greenland, but I doubt that many doesn't view the Faroe Islands as country separate country. Greenland governs it self, with the exception of foreign affairs and defence, and Denmark helps fund everything (around $500 Million per year). In return Denmark gets political influence that we wouldn't have otherwise. Nobody would care what Danish politicians have to say about the arctic, if we didn't hold influence over Greenlands foreign affairs. The yearly economical support to Greenland is honestly the only reason Greenland isn't a fully independent country, but even if they opted manage their own foreign politics and defence, I think many might still want to keep the Danish Queen.

airhead969 5y ago

F-35's are the epitome of the military-industrial complex: unnecessary, overpromised, and underdelivered (faulty, fragile, expensive, late). They should just be called F-111 2.0. It might not be a comedy of errors, but it could be a comedy of a travesty of comedic errors. It's not like there's a competitive marketplace for 5.5th gen fighters or alternatives to strategic, US-flag-waving purchases (NATO / political arm-twisting probably happened). I think a lot of countries want to stay on the US' good side because it's Godzilla, so they'll go along most of the time. In international diplomatic circles, whenever the words "democracy" or "the peace process" get mentioned in press reports, mentally-substitute those with the words "whatever America wants" and it will be accurate 99 times out of 100. Maybe with the ascent of China, the US and China will have to compete and negotiate more for favors than simply demanding unwavering fealty. PS: The first porn mags I ever saw were Danish. I can't say I saw much because that was the era when beavers had full pelts.

socialdemocrat 5y ago

Same deal here in Norway. Lots of irregularities in how the F35 got selected over Swedish SAAB Gripen. And yeah we are also incapable of saying no, to anything it seems. It has been Norwegian policy to not have US bases since end of WWII. But current conservative sell-out government has done it without any national debate. They just give the US an area of Norway where US laws applies. Criticizing the Norwegian alliance and what is being done to placate the US seems politically impossible. It is like a holy cow.

G3rn0ti 5y ago
This behavior can all be explained with the threat the Russian state still poses to the neighboring Scandinavian countries. If I were a small country afraid of a larger one I would also try to find me a big brother. We can only hope that Putin will fall one day.
- tored 5y ago
  Russia is a much smaller threat than the Soviet Union, if bases was not needed during the Cold War, they are definitely not needed now.
  - mike_d 5y ago
    Russia is effectively a criminal enterprise cosplaying as a nation state. Putin is going to die in the next 20 years and create a massive power vacuum. What you'll end up with is a dozen or so "rightful heirs" with some level of control over the military and nuclear arsenals.
    - hulitu 5y ago
      > Russia is effectively a criminal enterprise cosplaying as a nation state. There are a lot of states which are criminal enterprises, US included. There is really no reason for a country like Danemark to bend to US .
      - 5y ago

truth_ 5y ago

I really dislike how USA bullies people trying to buy Russian S400 anti-aircraft and anti-missile systems. S400s are effective against their best aircrafts. And they don't want other countries to have it. So they threaten sanction and people have to play along.

alkonaut 5y ago
It's a complex issue. It's not just money involved, buying a long term "system" means you are reliant on relations for spares and support. This puts into question the willingness of (e.g.) Turkey as a NATO country to upset Russia. NATO is a defense pact, which in reality means a military industrial pact too. There is no way to entirely separate the manufacturing and acquisition of military gear, from the treaty where it's supposed to be used.
- KMag 5y ago
  Wasn't there also at one point a proposal for a F-35 maintenance facility in Turkey? Having that kind of access to F-35 information and being potentially beholden to a manufacturer of the main threat to the F-35 sounds like a huge intelligence leak just waiting to happen.
- buran77 5y ago
  The US does its best to prevent allies from having any kind of military technology outside of US control, particularly if it's effective. Allegiances aren't set in stone and the US won't take the chance to see that tech used against them. [0] https://tech.slashdot.org/story/03/12/01/1226207/galileo-system-to-include-jamming-capability https://tech.slashdot.org/story/03/12/01/1226207/galileo-sys... [1] https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2003/dec/08/world.internationaleducationnews https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2003/dec/08/world.internation...
adriancr 5y ago
I don't see how it's a good idea to buy air defense from a potential enemy you have... the country NATO was created to defend against... It will surely protect you against them and not be used to sabotage/spy on you.

nathias 5y ago

Same thing is true for the rest of Europe or at least the part that's in NATO.

alkonaut 5y ago

Buying a slightly less suitable and more expensive but still rather capable plane might still be "cheap" if it buys you a NATO umbrella. It would make technical and economical sense to buy a Swedish fighter, but it perhaps doesn't make diplomatic sense (and I say that as a Swedish taxpayer).

coldtea 5y ago
>if it buys you a NATO umbrella A NATO umbrella is something that is enforced upon you, not something you "buy", unless one is stuck to cold war logic.

threwaway4392 5y ago

The US tax authorities want automated data collection from EU banks about all "US persons"? Sure, that's FATCA. Reciprocity? Nope, US banks don't send anything back.

krzyk 5y ago
That's actually good, I don't want my government to look at my money.
- etripe 5y ago
  Also, EU citizens aren't expected to pay tax to their home country when they live abroad. I've been led to believe Americans are.
  - ckolkey 5y ago
    That's correct, American citizens are required to pay tax to the IRS regardless of their residency. However, you can deduct something like $106,000 from your yearly income if it's already been taxed, to avoid double-taxation of income.
    - gspr 5y ago
      Yes, around 106k USD, but this exemption applies only to EARNED income. The definition of earned income is quite narrow. This can cause a massive headache. The way the US deals with taxation abroad is a travesty. I for one will be renouncing my citizenship because of it. Few countries deal with emigration in a perfectly hassle-free way, but the US makes living a life in any other country impossible if at any point you rely on income that isn't bog standard salary.
  - Broken_Hippo 5y ago
    Definitely - to a point. You pay local taxes first, but if they aren't high enough, you still have to pay US taxes. If you are married to someone of a different nationality, you cannot use online tax filing services without the spouse getting a number from the US government and reporting their income as well - even if they have never lived or worked in the US. So it turns out that living in Norway means that I have to file paper taxes any year I work, but generally don't have to pay since Norway's taxes are high enough. If I lived somewhere with a low tax rate, I'd have to file and pay taxes. Note: In general, I don't have to pay All taxes. We have Federal, state, and local taxes - they are generally only concerned with paying federal taxes while I live overseas. This also means that someone might still pay a lower tax rate overseas, depending on the state that they came from and the type of income they receive.

grammers 5y ago

> I’m Danish and this is a big scandal, but the reality is, when the US asks you dance like the vassal state you are. That's so true, and one major reason why we need a powerful EU. Not sure if we'll make it though - with 27 different opinions and interests.

nivenkos 5y ago
The EU never stands up for itself anyway. Never supports its own Tech companies, etc.

coldtea 5y ago

>I’m Danish and this is a big scandal, but the reality is, when the US asks you dance like the vassal state you are. Don't fret over it. The Swedes had to build up BS charges against Assange on the US behalf...

elric 5y ago

Similar deal in Belgium. We have US nukes (against the will of the citizenry, but what can you do...). We were pretty much forced to buy the overpriced F-35s, while the rest of our military is basically falling apart. When the NSA hacked the Belgium-based SWIFT banking system, the government pretty much looked the other way. There was a bit of a token response. But in the end, the puppet state danced to the tune of its puppet master.

whodidntante 5y ago

American here. I agree we are a bully. However, you have no basis for complaint unless/until you want to get off the american military tit. Based on a 2.5% GDP differential in military expenditures, the EU would be paying out an extra $350B a year to protect itself. America should leave NATO, keep the EU cultural/trade relationship, and reduce our military budget by that amount, which would pay for our much needed "infrastructure" projects. Would have been $7T in the last two decades alone. According to the progressive theory, this would solve all of our social issues without increasing our deficit. And our world might be a better place to live in. Unfortunately, neither the Americans nor the Europeans would consider doing this. You can of course decide to have less military, and pay less. Ask the Ukrainians about that.