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>“We live in a society that is designed for morning people, and evening people often feel as if they are in a constant state of misalignment with that societal

>“We live in a society that is designed for morning people, and evening people often feel as if they are in a constant state of misalignment with that societal clock,” said Daghlas. This certainly resonates with me...I've long been quite a night owl, very much so in my teens (with long periods where I was sleeping from 5am to 1pm if left to my own devices) and much less so now in my 30s, but each transition–to college or more flexible jobs–that gave me more control over my schedule and when my days would start also coincided with feeling a lot better about myself. It is not an exaggeration in the slightest to say that many people will treat you badly, joke about you and mock you to your face if you have trouble getting out of bed before 9 or 10am. I thankfully never struggled with depression around it and have had very flexible work schedules, but I can totally appreciate how the circumstances of being someone whose sleep schedule doesn't line up with society's expectations can really wear on a person.

freshhawk 5y ago
Yeah, this just obviously correct. Sure, maybe there is some other biological factor that accounts for some of the increased rates of depression. But it's an amazingly safe bet that the main factor is the part where we treat people poorly and openly classify them as a bad person. This seems pretty simple. Until the had too much of an effect on my health I medicated myself into a morning person sleep schedule. I felt worse physically, just low key bad all the time, but I miss it so much. Getting treated that much better, with absolute benefit of the doubt given to me regarding everything I did, instead of the complete opposite, was really great.
- bjornjajayaja 5y ago
  I think everyone is somewhat affected the same way because of devices. The natural rhythm of humans is sunrise to sunset, without electricity. But we put ourselves in the pixel glow around the clock! A more beneficial study than the OP would be to turn off all lights by sun down, and remove all technology. I’d wager folks would naturally wake up with sunrise over time and feel healthier, assuming they know what to do with themselves.
  - PpEY4fu85hkQpn 5y ago
    > The natural rhythm of humans is sunrise to sunset There's a pretty common genetic mutation that causes a delay in the natural rhythm. https://www.verywellhealth.com/genetic-mutation-night-owl-disorder-5087443 https://www.verywellhealth.com/genetic-mutation-night-owl-di...
    - pseudalopex 5y ago
      And up to 2 hours early or late isn't even considered a disorder.
  - balfirevic 5y ago
    Am I supposed to sleep 15 hours during the winter?
    - scatters 5y ago
      You're certainly supposed to sleep longer; it saves energy. Supposedly that's the adaptive background to seasonal affective disorder.
      - pseudalopex 5y ago
        Why don't more people have seasonal affective disorder then?
        sprkwd 5y ago
        Maybe they do and don’t realise it?
- travisjungroth 5y ago
  I’d be interested in seeing the effects on job retention and promotion from sending out an email at 7am to a different coworker every day.
  - quakeguy 5y ago
    From experience I can tell that 5am mails are treated like yesterday’s mails.
Swizec 5y ago
As a lifelong nightowl, I switched to mornings almost 2 years ago and it’s been great. Rather than bed at 2am, sleep till 10, I wake up at 5:30am and fall asleep at 10 simply by being tired enough. The result is that I get better sleep, need less caffeine, have more effective creative time for personal projects, and put my stuff first before the brain is full of work stuff. Oh and the girlfriend says I’m less cranky, more pleasant to be around, and she loves that we go to bed together. The insight that made it happen: If I can switch to a 9 hour different timezone, why not to waking up early? Body just cares which timezone your circadian rhytm is in, not where you are physically.
- pseudalopex 5y ago
  Humans have natural sleep preferences.[1] Artificial light can keep almost anyone up later though. Your story sounds like a life long early bird who stopped fighting their biology. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronotype https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronotype
  - Swizec 5y ago
    I think it’s more likely I just don’t need a lot of sleep and it doesn’t matter when that happens. These days I average 7h/night and I’m ridiculously well rested. In high school and college I could go weeks on 4h/night.
    - pseudalopex 5y ago
      7 hours is the low end of the normal range. How do you reconcile "it doesn’t matter when" and "The result is that I get better sleep"?
      - Swizec 5y ago
        It’s better in that there’s more of it because I spend less time trying to work on personal projects when I’m already tired from dayjob and am more effective. The actual sleep quality depends more on how much regular exercise I get and eating well than it does on timing. Unless I’m literally jetlagged.
inopinatus 5y ago
This is a great reason to be a founder. No-none gives me shit anymore for working funny hours because I’m on a roll. I’d rather be productive and weird, than half-baked and socially compliant. Plus, I get to make hiring decisions and keep the mediocrity police out.
- jobigoud 5y ago
  Being freelance or just remote employee in a different timezone works as well.
tgb 5y ago
Yes and this also goes the other way: I'm a "morning person" and have no problem with work schedules but have had to make sacrifices to my sleep and sanity for social obligations. I wouldn't switch roles to the opposite problem, but I've turned down social events my whole life due to not wanting to miss the sleep.
- scatters 5y ago
  "Early to rise and early to bed / Makes a man healthy but socially dead." I feel ya.
sneak 5y ago
It’s only a burden if you pay any mind to the kind of fuckheads who would openly mock you for sleeping until your body indicates it has had enough sleep. People behaving that way is a good signal about them. (I am non-24 and have been so my whole life. I have a 25-26h day and slowly drift out and back in to phase with the rest of the world on a few week period. I just woke up (19:00 local), for example.) I sleep when I am tired, and I wake up when I am done sleeping. I dropped out of high school and have almost never kept a square job, but both of those things sucked when I tried them, so I was glad to be rid of an alarm clock. Now my winter/pandemic home is in a city with more 24h restaurants and services than any other on the planet, as far as I can tell.
- jjeaff 5y ago
  I'm curious if you have a regular workout schedule? I have also always been a 25-26 hr a day person. But i have found that if I get vigorous exercise that day, then I am actually more like 24.
  - sneak 5y ago
    I have a regular workout schedule at the moment, but only when I wake up after 18:00 local, because cycling on the roads in CONUS when there are normal levels of traffic on them is approximately suicidal. I cover myself in EL wire and way too many flashing LEDs and go at like 03:00. I'm also a lights-off midnight console jockey and being outdoors in the mojave during daytime would cause me to immediately burst into flames. Doesn't seem to have much effect on my sleep, but I also famously ingest way too much caffeine at all hours of the day. TBH I prefer to be awake when everyone else is asleep. Crowds and lines and traffic are all pretty terrible, but so is living in low-population-density areas without easy access to goods and services. Being nocturnal in an urban environment is the only mitigation I know of. If I could be "cured" I wouldn't want to be.
axiosgunnar 5y ago
Ask them what time they go to bed. What, before 3am?! Ridiculous, what a lazy slob they must be to stop working to early!
- jjeaff 5y ago
  Ya, I have long gotten over feeling guilty for sleeping in. Whenever it comes up, I usually just ask how early they get up and say oh, that's great to get an early start like that. I was still working at that time too.
vladvasiliu 5y ago
I think the issue is more generally with being somehow "off" from most people's common schedule. I started waking early a few years ago (around 5 AM) so I could be able to exercise, shower, etc and be out the door at 7 AM in order to avoid rush hour. This worked well mostly, especially since at the office my boss was OK with me arriving and leaving 1-1.5 hrs early. This was great for going shopping, as shops here close fairly early (7:30 - 8 PM usually) and leaving work at 6:30-7 just doesn't leave enough time. But then, that means everything shifts. I'd have to be in bed by 10 PM to not feel tired in the morning, which means having dinner around 7. Which means if I want to see friends or other people with "normal" schedules, I have to "stay out late" which messes with my rhythm. As I'm not particularly social and don't go out too often, all in all this works out fine, and avoiding rush hour for the commute is absolutely worth it. But the point is this isn't "free".
agumonkey 5y ago
sorry people are making a fuss about this i don't agree that society was 'made for' i think it's mostly biological / planet rhythm on average that said i've been alternatively morning dude / night owl.. I have no idea why or how this change
goodpoint 5y ago
> It is not an exaggeration in the slightest to say that many people will treat you badly I've never encountered such strong stigma. Sound very specific to the culture you live in.
mastrsushi 5y ago
I dont believe the whole "morning people" thing. You often hear "night owls" are usually more creative, intelligent, any old unique glorifications. Those are the benefits of social isolation. Lack of sunlight and social isolation contribute to depression, and overall lack of energy. Before the whole "I talk to plenty of people online" Sure, but how could you possibly have time to visit productive friends. Or interact with the rest of society physically, getting up past 9 am. Live with the sun, coming from a guy who used to wake up at 3pm.

freshhawk 5y ago

Yeah, this just obviously correct. Sure, maybe there is some other biological factor that accounts for some of the increased rates of depression. But it's an amazingly safe bet that the main factor is the part where we treat people poorly and openly classify them as a bad person. This seems pretty simple. Until the had too much of an effect on my health I medicated myself into a morning person sleep schedule. I felt worse physically, just low key bad all the time, but I miss it so much. Getting treated that much better, with absolute benefit of the doubt given to me regarding everything I did, instead of the complete opposite, was really great.

bjornjajayaja 5y ago
I think everyone is somewhat affected the same way because of devices. The natural rhythm of humans is sunrise to sunset, without electricity. But we put ourselves in the pixel glow around the clock! A more beneficial study than the OP would be to turn off all lights by sun down, and remove all technology. I’d wager folks would naturally wake up with sunrise over time and feel healthier, assuming they know what to do with themselves.
- PpEY4fu85hkQpn 5y ago
  > The natural rhythm of humans is sunrise to sunset There's a pretty common genetic mutation that causes a delay in the natural rhythm. https://www.verywellhealth.com/genetic-mutation-night-owl-disorder-5087443 https://www.verywellhealth.com/genetic-mutation-night-owl-di...
  - pseudalopex 5y ago
    And up to 2 hours early or late isn't even considered a disorder.
- balfirevic 5y ago
  Am I supposed to sleep 15 hours during the winter?
  - scatters 5y ago
    You're certainly supposed to sleep longer; it saves energy. Supposedly that's the adaptive background to seasonal affective disorder.
    - pseudalopex 5y ago
      Why don't more people have seasonal affective disorder then?
      - sprkwd 5y ago
        Maybe they do and don’t realise it?
travisjungroth 5y ago
I’d be interested in seeing the effects on job retention and promotion from sending out an email at 7am to a different coworker every day.
- quakeguy 5y ago
  From experience I can tell that 5am mails are treated like yesterday’s mails.

Swizec 5y ago

As a lifelong nightowl, I switched to mornings almost 2 years ago and it’s been great. Rather than bed at 2am, sleep till 10, I wake up at 5:30am and fall asleep at 10 simply by being tired enough. The result is that I get better sleep, need less caffeine, have more effective creative time for personal projects, and put my stuff first before the brain is full of work stuff. Oh and the girlfriend says I’m less cranky, more pleasant to be around, and she loves that we go to bed together. The insight that made it happen: If I can switch to a 9 hour different timezone, why not to waking up early? Body just cares which timezone your circadian rhytm is in, not where you are physically.

pseudalopex 5y ago
Humans have natural sleep preferences.[1] Artificial light can keep almost anyone up later though. Your story sounds like a life long early bird who stopped fighting their biology. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronotype https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronotype
- Swizec 5y ago
  I think it’s more likely I just don’t need a lot of sleep and it doesn’t matter when that happens. These days I average 7h/night and I’m ridiculously well rested. In high school and college I could go weeks on 4h/night.
  - pseudalopex 5y ago
    7 hours is the low end of the normal range. How do you reconcile "it doesn’t matter when" and "The result is that I get better sleep"?
    - Swizec 5y ago
      It’s better in that there’s more of it because I spend less time trying to work on personal projects when I’m already tired from dayjob and am more effective. The actual sleep quality depends more on how much regular exercise I get and eating well than it does on timing. Unless I’m literally jetlagged.

inopinatus 5y ago

This is a great reason to be a founder. No-none gives me shit anymore for working funny hours because I’m on a roll. I’d rather be productive and weird, than half-baked and socially compliant. Plus, I get to make hiring decisions and keep the mediocrity police out.

jobigoud 5y ago
Being freelance or just remote employee in a different timezone works as well.

tgb 5y ago

Yes and this also goes the other way: I'm a "morning person" and have no problem with work schedules but have had to make sacrifices to my sleep and sanity for social obligations. I wouldn't switch roles to the opposite problem, but I've turned down social events my whole life due to not wanting to miss the sleep.

scatters 5y ago
"Early to rise and early to bed / Makes a man healthy but socially dead." I feel ya.

sneak 5y ago

It’s only a burden if you pay any mind to the kind of fuckheads who would openly mock you for sleeping until your body indicates it has had enough sleep. People behaving that way is a good signal about them. (I am non-24 and have been so my whole life. I have a 25-26h day and slowly drift out and back in to phase with the rest of the world on a few week period. I just woke up (19:00 local), for example.) I sleep when I am tired, and I wake up when I am done sleeping. I dropped out of high school and have almost never kept a square job, but both of those things sucked when I tried them, so I was glad to be rid of an alarm clock. Now my winter/pandemic home is in a city with more 24h restaurants and services than any other on the planet, as far as I can tell.

jjeaff 5y ago
I'm curious if you have a regular workout schedule? I have also always been a 25-26 hr a day person. But i have found that if I get vigorous exercise that day, then I am actually more like 24.
- sneak 5y ago
  I have a regular workout schedule at the moment, but only when I wake up after 18:00 local, because cycling on the roads in CONUS when there are normal levels of traffic on them is approximately suicidal. I cover myself in EL wire and way too many flashing LEDs and go at like 03:00. I'm also a lights-off midnight console jockey and being outdoors in the mojave during daytime would cause me to immediately burst into flames. Doesn't seem to have much effect on my sleep, but I also famously ingest way too much caffeine at all hours of the day. TBH I prefer to be awake when everyone else is asleep. Crowds and lines and traffic are all pretty terrible, but so is living in low-population-density areas without easy access to goods and services. Being nocturnal in an urban environment is the only mitigation I know of. If I could be "cured" I wouldn't want to be.

axiosgunnar 5y ago

Ask them what time they go to bed. What, before 3am?! Ridiculous, what a lazy slob they must be to stop working to early!

jjeaff 5y ago
Ya, I have long gotten over feeling guilty for sleeping in. Whenever it comes up, I usually just ask how early they get up and say oh, that's great to get an early start like that. I was still working at that time too.

vladvasiliu 5y ago

I think the issue is more generally with being somehow "off" from most people's common schedule. I started waking early a few years ago (around 5 AM) so I could be able to exercise, shower, etc and be out the door at 7 AM in order to avoid rush hour. This worked well mostly, especially since at the office my boss was OK with me arriving and leaving 1-1.5 hrs early. This was great for going shopping, as shops here close fairly early (7:30 - 8 PM usually) and leaving work at 6:30-7 just doesn't leave enough time. But then, that means everything shifts. I'd have to be in bed by 10 PM to not feel tired in the morning, which means having dinner around 7. Which means if I want to see friends or other people with "normal" schedules, I have to "stay out late" which messes with my rhythm. As I'm not particularly social and don't go out too often, all in all this works out fine, and avoiding rush hour for the commute is absolutely worth it. But the point is this isn't "free".

agumonkey 5y ago

sorry people are making a fuss about this i don't agree that society was 'made for' i think it's mostly biological / planet rhythm on average that said i've been alternatively morning dude / night owl.. I have no idea why or how this change

goodpoint 5y ago

> It is not an exaggeration in the slightest to say that many people will treat you badly I've never encountered such strong stigma. Sound very specific to the culture you live in.

mastrsushi 5y ago

I dont believe the whole "morning people" thing. You often hear "night owls" are usually more creative, intelligent, any old unique glorifications. Those are the benefits of social isolation. Lack of sunlight and social isolation contribute to depression, and overall lack of energy. Before the whole "I talk to plenty of people online" Sure, but how could you possibly have time to visit productive friends. Or interact with the rest of society physically, getting up past 9 am. Live with the sun, coming from a guy who used to wake up at 3pm.