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Have you looked into botox shots at all? When I tell you my life changed completely from a 15 minute botox appointment with an oral surgeon I am not exaggeratin

Have you looked into botox shots at all? When I tell you my life changed completely from a 15 minute botox appointment with an oral surgeon I am not exaggerating in the least. I’d had no idea what it felt like to live without bruxism - not only were my teeth better but my neck stopped aching, my back muscles stopped spasming, and I stopped getting migraines entirely. I had gotten debilitating migraines once every month or two since I was a kid and had been taking pretty serious medicine to prevent and combat them for the better part of a decade. They stopped completely, cold turkey, after my first botox appointment. And I had no idea that was even a possible side effect(? benefit?) of the botox procedure at the time! I’m sure I’ve written about it here before but it was wild how much the botox changed my quality of life to the point it was actually really upsetting to me at first. I had struggled for so long and I had to fight with insurance so much to get the botox covered (it was off-label at the time for TMJ, I think it’s approved now) and there had been a safe, simple, and highly effective solution that I sort of stumbled into out of sheer desperation, a lot of good luck, and a series of referrals on referrals on referrals. Oh yeah, and much to my dentist & orthodontist’s delight, I stopped breaking my retainer in my sleep, stopped needing a mouth guard at night, and stopped needing special toothpaste for my sensitive teeth. But those improvements pale in comparison to the literal whole-body benefits. I know it’s not going to be a magic bullet solution for everyone the way it was for me but the improvement was so night and day I have an almost compulsive need to bring it up whenever someone mentions they suffer from bruxism or migraines just in case it can put an end to their misery, too. So if you haven’t looked into it yet the potential upside makes it well worthwhile to bring it up with your doctor and/or dentist. Or, if you happen to be in Massachusetts, give Dr. David Keith at MGH a call.

setman2 5y ago
Very helpful information! Thank you so much!
zwily 5y ago
I don’t know you and haven’t had any of your symptoms, but reading your story brought a smile to my face. Thanks for sharing, hopefully it helps others.
Kinrany 5y ago
Startup idea: Reddit, but with a betting market about astroturfing
- Gene_Parmesan 5y ago
  It does read a little bit like astroturfing, but as someone who had a (different) lifelong debilitating condition that has been almost entirely solved by a few doctor's appointments, I can say that nothing turns you into an advocate for something faster than this sort of experience. For me it was almost spiritual in the end. It was also oddly upsetting in some way, thinking about all the years I had wasted when essentially two hour-long appointments were all I needed. You gain this almost overwhelming need to help other people avoid the same morass you were in.
  - Kinrany 5y ago
    Yeah, I don't doubt this happens. If it didn't, astroturfing wouldn't work! Betting on whether a specific comment is legit would still be interesting.
  - zby 5y ago
    Hmm - this is really a deep issue here. How should we learn about these new treatments? Shouldn't we wait for the dentist to learn about it and evaluate - wouldn't someone with more background information be more suitable for that and maybe save us from traps? On average I would agree with that - but there are cracks in the bureaucracy mainstream medicine machine: https://equilibriabook.com/ https://equilibriabook.com/, and also I believe that communities like HN can be somehow trusted - it is possible to be better than the average: https://zby.medium.com/rational-patient-community-6d3617dffcfe https://zby.medium.com/rational-patient-community-6d3617dffc...
bredren 5y ago
I don’t know anything about this ailment or this solution but I’m glad to read this story. I’ve found other examples of ailments with relatively inexpensive or simple solutions that are unknown to many. I think many people suffer to varying degrees simply because they don’t know some important piece of information. Sometimes historical solutions overwhelm new or lesser known yet effective solutions and this prevents people from living better lives. Sort of like how stack overflow is overrun with answers conflating jquery with JavaScript. With health stuff, I think sometimes the friction and expense of seeing a professional prevents people from getting answers. Though sometimes these folks don’t have the most up to date or best information either. It is almost like we need wikihow style answers for a far broader spread over life’s many questions. In some cases like parent’s, this can be life-changing information. And while the procedure is not free the knowledge that motivates one to find a way to greatly improve one’s own outlook is.
- doctorbaum 5y ago
  "The future is here, it's just not evenly distributed" - I always encounter this theme with healthcare
reader_x 5y ago
Can you describe more specifically where the Botox was injected? What muscle(s) did it paralyze?
- ballballball 5y ago
  We usually do masseter and temporalis muscles.
  - criddell 5y ago
    Any idea if it works for tinnitus?
    - spython 5y ago
      Try and see whether you can relax your jaw (if you do it right your tongue would hang lower than usual and it may feel like saliva is produced at a faster rate), and see if tinnitus retreats after a while. If it does, I would speculate that the shots would then also work, though it may be helpful to find a psychosomatic approach first. (I'm not a doctor but familiar with such cases).
- elliekelly 5y ago
  I don’t know the muscles but maybe someone here can chime in with the specific names from this very unscientific description: on each side of my head kind of near my temples and on each side of my jaw near the corner(?) bone. (Really regretting never having taken an anatomy class...) If you put your finger on your earlobe and pull it maybe an inch forward I would say it was about there. My doctor kindly used some sort of very cold topical numbing spray before the injections which meant I couldn’t feel much. So in addition to my description being very unscientific it could also be slightly inaccurate. I think my doctor was somewhat unique (at least at the time) for doing the temple injections to treat TMJ and I think the temple is one of the injection locations used now when someone gets Botox for migraines. I know there were additional possible injection sites he used for more severe cases or where there wasn’t complete relief but I can’t recall where they were because I didn’t end up needing them.
werdnapk 5y ago
I asked my wife (an oral surgeon) if she does this procedure for the same issue and she says yes. Happy to hear this is common practice for oral surgeons.
officialjunk 5y ago
to clarify, are you saying that a single treatment of botox cured you of these ailments?
- ballballball 5y ago
  Botox lasts for about 3 months. It can take multiple treatments to allow for muscle atrophy. The relief usually lasts for as long as the Botox does until the muscles change.
- elliekelly 5y ago
  Good question, no. It’s too late to edit my original comment but I went probably every two or three months for a few years. The relief was immediate and continual and the migraines, back spasms, etc. never returned but I did get maintenance injections. I don’t know how to describe it but I could kind of feel that was wearing off. Like I feel my jaw muscles getting stronger and that’s when I’d make an appointment to go back. Eventually the follow-up appointments started to spread out further and then they stopped. I still don’t chew gum, though. As soon as I chew gum I can feel those muscles wanting to bulk right back up! It’s my understanding that Botox weakens the muscle and people who clench/grind their teeth have very strong muscles so you kind of keep going until the muscle is atrophied(?) down to a normal strength. So I would imagine the earlier you go for treatment the shorter the amount time you’d require treatment and vice versa. For more severe cases there’s actually a visible difference in your face, too. It’s too subtle for most people to notice but I can look at photos of myself and tell you whether it was before or after I started botox. When your jaw muscles are so strong it makes your face more square. Here’s a good example of what I’m talking about: https://www.realself.com/photos/botox/botox-for-tmj#media-photo-8414362-7377412-10 https://www.realself.com/photos/botox/botox-for-tmj#media-ph...
  - zadler 5y ago
    Is it safe? I’ve read that it might cause bone loss and the long term safety has not been established.
cannaceo 5y ago
Thanks, I’m going to try this. Wonder if it’s the cause of my neck issues.
nikodunk 5y ago
Thank you so much for posting this! I’ve ground my teeth badly my whole life, it’s starting to get to the bad parts of my teeth and gums receding etc etc despite retainers, and I’ll definitely look into this! Yours, Guy at the end of his enamel
- nextos 5y ago
  You may also want to check your neck posture. I've found that, in my case, using laptops invariably leads to bruxism due to poor ergonomics. Quitting laptops and using a proper desktop, or a laptop stand plus an external keyboard, was like toggling off the bruxism switch. It went off in a week. Plus, I stopped suffering from horrible migraines. In order to repair your enamel a bit and keep what you have you may want to try toothpastes and creams that contain enamel-like ceramics. I've had spectacular results with a combination of calcium salts, fluoride and hydroxyapatite and ceramics (Novamin). There are better things to add up into the mix right now, such as self-assembling peptide scaffolds.
  - nikodunk 5y ago
    Hmm okay this is a great pointer too. I’ll look into it, thank you!
ce4 5y ago
Back problems, bruxism, migraines - have you had yourself tested for some bacterial infection like e.g. lyme or bartonella? Just to have that excluded before treating symptoms. I've had all of this for years (more like decades) plus different additional symptoms and got diagnosed last year. The ongoing treatment is not for the faint of heart but symptoms are on the retreat since. PS: I've grown up in rural Germany and also had close contact to cattle as a kid etc.
- fighterpilot 5y ago
  What other bacterial infections could cause these symptoms aside from lyme and bartonella? Would such an infection be able to explain chronic symptoms over a 1-2 year period?
  - ce4 5y ago
    My MD offers lab tests for Chlamydia, Bartonella, different strains of Borellia, Yersinia, Ehrlichia amongst others, she also offers tests for HPV and Mono. To be honest: I have no clue what is causing which exact symptom, it's also often the immune response / inflammation that's the reason for the pain and other problems. Edit: forgot to answer your question. yes, in my case it was episodes of joint pain, neck stiffness, lightheadedness, heavy fatigue, numb fingertips, skin problems, heavy mood swings and more with symptom free times in between for more than 20 years - often triggered by stress but not always. And the symptoms got worse with me growing older. The condition is not easy to diagnose and you need the right specialist, there's lots of snake oil out there and treatment is longterm and without a guarantee to cure 100%.
    - fighterpilot 5y ago
      Thanks. What kind of specialist is suggested for such a bacterial infection? Immunologist?
      - ce4 5y ago
        My general practitioner who is also an internist was overwhelmed ("deal with it, you're getting older" diagnosed only psychosomatic reasons etc). A friend of mine suggested an MD who specializes in such infections, I later changed to a Doc nearer to where I live. Got the address from Deutsche Borreliose Gesellschaft, a german registry for lyme.
mrwww 5y ago
Interesting solution! I had massive issues with my posture, neck, hips and even feet, which i know, sounds crazy, but all came from my bruxism and bite. If you have bad posture and maloclussion, look into forward head posture, lots of studies on it now. I have not done botox. What i did was jaw relaxation exersices and physiotherapy. Its helped a lot. I have a compulsive need to bring this up as well, I didnt understand it all was happening to me and starting to treat it has changed my life.
treeman79 5y ago
Sounds like TMJ issue. I suffer horrific migraines. One day after someone mentioned TMJ. I started massage various points around jaw. Found an incredibly painful spot. Worked on it over 3 days until it stopped hurting. Migraines stopped. Several months later they started again. That same spot was bad again. Same results. Botox is an another way to deal with it.
airhead969 5y ago
Botox.. hmm. Interesting. I chipped / broke half of a crowded-out front tooth one night a month or so ago. My teeth sometimes chatter on their own at night. My jaw is compact and massively internally-hypertrophic (reinforced) from a lifetime of bruxism. Also, masseters are jacked, teeth roots are extremely long, and my neck muscles are hypertrophic (no neck) too. I wonder if this is an evolutionary adaptation of a "fighter" body plan.
mancerayder 5y ago
I'm curious about the neck piece of it. I grind at night, too, but I have neck and upper back issues despite everything I do to prevent, including years of PT exercises.

setman2 5y ago

Very helpful information! Thank you so much!

zwily 5y ago

I don’t know you and haven’t had any of your symptoms, but reading your story brought a smile to my face. Thanks for sharing, hopefully it helps others.

Kinrany 5y ago

Startup idea: Reddit, but with a betting market about astroturfing

Gene_Parmesan 5y ago
It does read a little bit like astroturfing, but as someone who had a (different) lifelong debilitating condition that has been almost entirely solved by a few doctor's appointments, I can say that nothing turns you into an advocate for something faster than this sort of experience. For me it was almost spiritual in the end. It was also oddly upsetting in some way, thinking about all the years I had wasted when essentially two hour-long appointments were all I needed. You gain this almost overwhelming need to help other people avoid the same morass you were in.
- Kinrany 5y ago
  Yeah, I don't doubt this happens. If it didn't, astroturfing wouldn't work! Betting on whether a specific comment is legit would still be interesting.
- zby 5y ago
  Hmm - this is really a deep issue here. How should we learn about these new treatments? Shouldn't we wait for the dentist to learn about it and evaluate - wouldn't someone with more background information be more suitable for that and maybe save us from traps? On average I would agree with that - but there are cracks in the bureaucracy mainstream medicine machine: https://equilibriabook.com/ https://equilibriabook.com/, and also I believe that communities like HN can be somehow trusted - it is possible to be better than the average: https://zby.medium.com/rational-patient-community-6d3617dffcfe https://zby.medium.com/rational-patient-community-6d3617dffc...

bredren 5y ago

I don’t know anything about this ailment or this solution but I’m glad to read this story. I’ve found other examples of ailments with relatively inexpensive or simple solutions that are unknown to many. I think many people suffer to varying degrees simply because they don’t know some important piece of information. Sometimes historical solutions overwhelm new or lesser known yet effective solutions and this prevents people from living better lives. Sort of like how stack overflow is overrun with answers conflating jquery with JavaScript. With health stuff, I think sometimes the friction and expense of seeing a professional prevents people from getting answers. Though sometimes these folks don’t have the most up to date or best information either. It is almost like we need wikihow style answers for a far broader spread over life’s many questions. In some cases like parent’s, this can be life-changing information. And while the procedure is not free the knowledge that motivates one to find a way to greatly improve one’s own outlook is.

doctorbaum 5y ago
"The future is here, it's just not evenly distributed" - I always encounter this theme with healthcare

reader_x 5y ago

Can you describe more specifically where the Botox was injected? What muscle(s) did it paralyze?

ballballball 5y ago
We usually do masseter and temporalis muscles.
- criddell 5y ago
  Any idea if it works for tinnitus?
  - spython 5y ago
    Try and see whether you can relax your jaw (if you do it right your tongue would hang lower than usual and it may feel like saliva is produced at a faster rate), and see if tinnitus retreats after a while. If it does, I would speculate that the shots would then also work, though it may be helpful to find a psychosomatic approach first. (I'm not a doctor but familiar with such cases).
elliekelly 5y ago
I don’t know the muscles but maybe someone here can chime in with the specific names from this very unscientific description: on each side of my head kind of near my temples and on each side of my jaw near the corner(?) bone. (Really regretting never having taken an anatomy class...) If you put your finger on your earlobe and pull it maybe an inch forward I would say it was about there. My doctor kindly used some sort of very cold topical numbing spray before the injections which meant I couldn’t feel much. So in addition to my description being very unscientific it could also be slightly inaccurate. I think my doctor was somewhat unique (at least at the time) for doing the temple injections to treat TMJ and I think the temple is one of the injection locations used now when someone gets Botox for migraines. I know there were additional possible injection sites he used for more severe cases or where there wasn’t complete relief but I can’t recall where they were because I didn’t end up needing them.

werdnapk 5y ago

I asked my wife (an oral surgeon) if she does this procedure for the same issue and she says yes. Happy to hear this is common practice for oral surgeons.

officialjunk 5y ago

to clarify, are you saying that a single treatment of botox cured you of these ailments?

ballballball 5y ago
Botox lasts for about 3 months. It can take multiple treatments to allow for muscle atrophy. The relief usually lasts for as long as the Botox does until the muscles change.
elliekelly 5y ago
Good question, no. It’s too late to edit my original comment but I went probably every two or three months for a few years. The relief was immediate and continual and the migraines, back spasms, etc. never returned but I did get maintenance injections. I don’t know how to describe it but I could kind of feel that was wearing off. Like I feel my jaw muscles getting stronger and that’s when I’d make an appointment to go back. Eventually the follow-up appointments started to spread out further and then they stopped. I still don’t chew gum, though. As soon as I chew gum I can feel those muscles wanting to bulk right back up! It’s my understanding that Botox weakens the muscle and people who clench/grind their teeth have very strong muscles so you kind of keep going until the muscle is atrophied(?) down to a normal strength. So I would imagine the earlier you go for treatment the shorter the amount time you’d require treatment and vice versa. For more severe cases there’s actually a visible difference in your face, too. It’s too subtle for most people to notice but I can look at photos of myself and tell you whether it was before or after I started botox. When your jaw muscles are so strong it makes your face more square. Here’s a good example of what I’m talking about: https://www.realself.com/photos/botox/botox-for-tmj#media-photo-8414362-7377412-10 https://www.realself.com/photos/botox/botox-for-tmj#media-ph...
- zadler 5y ago
  Is it safe? I’ve read that it might cause bone loss and the long term safety has not been established.

cannaceo 5y ago

Thanks, I’m going to try this. Wonder if it’s the cause of my neck issues.

nikodunk 5y ago

Thank you so much for posting this! I’ve ground my teeth badly my whole life, it’s starting to get to the bad parts of my teeth and gums receding etc etc despite retainers, and I’ll definitely look into this! Yours, Guy at the end of his enamel

nextos 5y ago
You may also want to check your neck posture. I've found that, in my case, using laptops invariably leads to bruxism due to poor ergonomics. Quitting laptops and using a proper desktop, or a laptop stand plus an external keyboard, was like toggling off the bruxism switch. It went off in a week. Plus, I stopped suffering from horrible migraines. In order to repair your enamel a bit and keep what you have you may want to try toothpastes and creams that contain enamel-like ceramics. I've had spectacular results with a combination of calcium salts, fluoride and hydroxyapatite and ceramics (Novamin). There are better things to add up into the mix right now, such as self-assembling peptide scaffolds.
- nikodunk 5y ago
  Hmm okay this is a great pointer too. I’ll look into it, thank you!

ce4 5y ago

Back problems, bruxism, migraines - have you had yourself tested for some bacterial infection like e.g. lyme or bartonella? Just to have that excluded before treating symptoms. I've had all of this for years (more like decades) plus different additional symptoms and got diagnosed last year. The ongoing treatment is not for the faint of heart but symptoms are on the retreat since. PS: I've grown up in rural Germany and also had close contact to cattle as a kid etc.

fighterpilot 5y ago
What other bacterial infections could cause these symptoms aside from lyme and bartonella? Would such an infection be able to explain chronic symptoms over a 1-2 year period?
- ce4 5y ago
  My MD offers lab tests for Chlamydia, Bartonella, different strains of Borellia, Yersinia, Ehrlichia amongst others, she also offers tests for HPV and Mono. To be honest: I have no clue what is causing which exact symptom, it's also often the immune response / inflammation that's the reason for the pain and other problems. Edit: forgot to answer your question. yes, in my case it was episodes of joint pain, neck stiffness, lightheadedness, heavy fatigue, numb fingertips, skin problems, heavy mood swings and more with symptom free times in between for more than 20 years - often triggered by stress but not always. And the symptoms got worse with me growing older. The condition is not easy to diagnose and you need the right specialist, there's lots of snake oil out there and treatment is longterm and without a guarantee to cure 100%.
  - fighterpilot 5y ago
    Thanks. What kind of specialist is suggested for such a bacterial infection? Immunologist?
    - ce4 5y ago
      My general practitioner who is also an internist was overwhelmed ("deal with it, you're getting older" diagnosed only psychosomatic reasons etc). A friend of mine suggested an MD who specializes in such infections, I later changed to a Doc nearer to where I live. Got the address from Deutsche Borreliose Gesellschaft, a german registry for lyme.

mrwww 5y ago

Interesting solution! I had massive issues with my posture, neck, hips and even feet, which i know, sounds crazy, but all came from my bruxism and bite. If you have bad posture and maloclussion, look into forward head posture, lots of studies on it now. I have not done botox. What i did was jaw relaxation exersices and physiotherapy. Its helped a lot. I have a compulsive need to bring this up as well, I didnt understand it all was happening to me and starting to treat it has changed my life.

treeman79 5y ago

Sounds like TMJ issue. I suffer horrific migraines. One day after someone mentioned TMJ. I started massage various points around jaw. Found an incredibly painful spot. Worked on it over 3 days until it stopped hurting. Migraines stopped. Several months later they started again. That same spot was bad again. Same results. Botox is an another way to deal with it.

airhead969 5y ago

Botox.. hmm. Interesting. I chipped / broke half of a crowded-out front tooth one night a month or so ago. My teeth sometimes chatter on their own at night. My jaw is compact and massively internally-hypertrophic (reinforced) from a lifetime of bruxism. Also, masseters are jacked, teeth roots are extremely long, and my neck muscles are hypertrophic (no neck) too. I wonder if this is an evolutionary adaptation of a "fighter" body plan.

mancerayder 5y ago

I'm curious about the neck piece of it. I grind at night, too, but I have neck and upper back issues despite everything I do to prevent, including years of PT exercises.