7 ms·

I read The Economist which every year publishes their list of notable books. That is how I found Kleptopia: How Dirty Money Is Conquering the World by Tom Burgi

• narrator 5y ago
  Kleptocracy is more blatant in Russia. Many business owners are jailed once their business gets to a certain level of success and they don't sell to the local political/business mafia. This isn't really the case in western countries where the big players aren't sharing their profits with government officials and have plenty of money to buy companies at market rates. https://www.bbc.com/news/business-13546177 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-13546177
  • coldtea 5y ago
    Kleptocracy is more publicized when it comes to Russia, because it's an internal affair. If the same kleptocrats just sold to foreign companies who bribed and plundered the country, like in Yeltsin's years, you'd hear 1/100th the stories.
    • alisonkisk 5y ago
      The difference is "public companies" vs powerful single owners, and the mafia-style violence behind them. Sure, Koch is a corrupt foreign billionaire, but it's a rare example.
• 627467 5y ago
  ...and all this has been possible without crime-enabling cryptocurrencies
  • seibelj 5y ago
    Bu bu bu tether something something
  • actually_a_dog 5y ago
    ...and the fact that these things happen without the aid of cryptocurrencies is not an argument that cryptocurrencies won't further enable these things, if that's what you're getting at.
    • wombatmobile 5y ago
      I don't assume that is what the gp is saying. The more obvious point is that the forces that result in inequality don't originate in crypto, and any serious attempt to oppose these forces should target the origins.
      • actually_a_dog 5y ago
        > forces that result in inequality don't originate in crypto Of course. But, this is either a ridiculous argument, or so obvious it's not worth stating. Inequality has been a thing for thousands of years.
• jollybean 5y ago
  This is a different problem. Gates, Zuckerburg, Musk and Thiel are not Kleptocrats. Frankly, neither are the Walmart children. There are soft parrallels and kleptocracy does exist. But this issue is about power asymmetry and markets etc. It's a systematic problem. The 'big problem' is that a lot of small fish in the market might be in the top 20% are making 'some money' from stocks, and will push back against rectifications, all the while not realizing that though they are 'getting a better deal than the bottom 80%' ... those above them, i.e. the 5%, 1% and 0.1% are getting gigantically better deals. The 0.1% is screwing over the 1% as bad as the 1% is screwing over the 10% as bad as the 10% is screwing over the middle class as bad as the middle class is screwing over the working class. I feel that this is true, and the 'natural result' of a system in which everyone believes they are 'doing much better than those below them' - but have no insight or information into the layers above to grasp how bad they are being screwed. Middle class don't quite understand Doctor/Dentist pay, who don't understand Executive/Banker pay, who don't quite understand mega wealth income. In Monaco, you can tell what 'class' people were by looking at them, and even if you wore a $2K suit, and were a high paid banker, you 'had a job' meaning you were still 'working class' to the 'true elite' there. And by the way, the other greatest source of inequality is housing. Everything I just said about housing is even more true: the first time owners think they are making bank, without realize the middle class is making more, and those with $3M homes even more. When everyone is making more from their property investments, which are not productive, then the people paying the price are those with the least leverage, i.e. working class. But politics is what it is, and you can basically never attack the middle class - while they are sympathetic to the 'working class', they're not going to actually really want to give up massive benefits - and - working class people are less likely to vote. This is a huge systematic problem in Canada right now, with the government pandering hard to 'middle class' who are effectively leveraging themselves over working people with money-printing that is being plowed into homes. It's not productive, it's just rearranging deck-chairs, with 1 more chair going up the stack every time they are rearranged.
  • onlyrealcuzzo 5y ago
    Once your Return is greater than your Income - you're in a different class of people. This is true for everyone retired. It's true for a lot of people >55. And it's true for almost everyone in the top 1% by wealth (by definition you have >$10.5M - which even with average returns would net you $787,500 in capital gains per year - which is greater than the cut off for the top 1% in earned income). Outside of that dynamic, I don't think there's as big of a difference between the top 20%, 10%, and 5%. It's all relative to wealth - and the curve doesn't get ridiculously steep until you get into the >2% (of wealth).
• ayngg 5y ago
  iirc money mostly enters Britain because they use it as the way point for the tax havens "controlled" by Britain; their overseas territories and crown dependencies. Then it disappears into the land of political and financial voodoo of nameless holding companies, trusts and such, where nobody knows who is responsible for what, in both holdings and regulations. Mossack Fonseca's Panama Papers were a fairly big deal, but in reality that was the tiniest glimpse into that opaque world, and the revelation ended up changing nothing. Politicians still campaign about tax rates as if they mean anything when they can just be avoided.
  • peteretep 5y ago
    Why bother sending it to the UK first when you can send it directly to IOM, the Channel Islands, etc?
    • ayngg 5y ago
      I believe it is more the case that the banking sector in the City of London is the institution, and the secrecy jurisdictions are tools that it developed and uses. Historically money ended up in England because of the Eurodollar system, and from there banks use the secrecy jurisdictions to create trust systems across different jurisdictions for opaqueness. England as an intermediary is preferred because there is a level of trust there with their institutions that isn't there with some bank in a random backwater.
      • peteretep 5y ago
        > the banking sector in the City of London There’s no difference in regulations in or outside the city > their institutions that isn’t there with some bank in a random backwater It’s the exact same banks. Here’s a list for Jersey although the same is true for most Crown-controlled tax havens: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_banks_in_Jersey https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_banks_in_Jersey
        • ayngg 5y ago
• greesil 5y ago
  Purchased. Finding a good book makes wading through a thousand asinine comments worthwhile. Thanks for the recommendation.
  • sumedh 5y ago
    Treasure Islands: Tax Havens is one more good book if you are interested in this topic.
    • greesil 5y ago
      Dirty Money on Netflix is pretty good.
• akudha 5y ago
  There is one thing that I find fascinating and depressing at the same time - the belief that the uber rich got there with hard work and ethics alone, and that anyone can do it too, if only they work hard. It is the belief that they themselves will get rich someday, that makes voters support (at least not oppose) all kinds of laws that benefit only the rich, often at the expense of everyone else. I don’t know if this delusion is everywhere, but it certainly is in the U.S
  • refurb 5y ago
    I don’t think that belief exists if you’re talking about the “Uber rich”. There is a belief that you can get rich with hard work in the US. Rich being a few million and enough cash to buy a ridiculous house or exotic car or a boat. But “uber rich”? Like $1B+, I don’t know anyone who thinks you can do that through hard work alone.
    • anamexis 5y ago
      I think it's a lot less widespread, but on the other hand, I see this sentiment from a lot of people about Elon Musk.
    • HumblyTossed 5y ago
      A few million isn't enough to do those things, though.
      • refurb 5y ago
        That’s a very Silicon Valley mentality. It’s more than enough to retire independently in LCOL areas of the US.
        • HumblyTossed 5y ago
          What does retire have to do with: > Rich being a few million and enough cash to buy a ridiculous house or exotic car or a boat.