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Having a more direct pathway to citizenship through university/graduate studies, if properly regulated, could be a tremendous benefit to the country rather than

Having a more direct pathway to citizenship through university/graduate studies, if properly regulated, could be a tremendous benefit to the country rather than forcing graduates into H1B serfdom. Such a pathway would require careful oversight and restrictions to avoid abuse (like creating fake degree programs), but the benefits to everyone involved could vastly outweigh the costs. Interested in what others would think about this.

anovikov 5y ago
I think it doesn't exist precisely because it will create innumerous diploma mills that will also be now passport mills... Fake degrees are already a thing and they are bad for economy and society as they are, and very little can be done about them - economic incentive is too high.
newsclues 5y ago
But doesn’t this type of migration lead to brain drains? If you take the best talent from the developing world and move them all to America for education and then capture their talents through migration, you deprived the developing world of the talent they need to develop and thrive, which puts the developing world even further behind! Seems like if we want to help the developing world we need to train and equip their talented people and ensure they have the security and infrastructure to build their homelands into developed nations with established trade routes, etc. Or we can continue to exploit developing countries by snatching their top talent. It’s not modern day slavery, but it seems to be uncomfortably close in its exploitation.
- zozbot234 5y ago
  "Brain drain" is a net benefit to the source country. Brains are worthless on their own without higher education and the know-how that's gained from being an expat to a developed country. It's very much a win-win arrangement.
  - afiori 5y ago
    It is a win for the home country only if the expat comes back, then they get access to an educated individual that would have been hard to train internally.
    - zozbot234 5y ago
      Many expats do come back to their home country, and pretty much all expats have at least some meaningful links and interactions with it.
      - afiori 5y ago
        Then that is not a brain drain, in many places (like my own country) very few people come back. In that case whether justified of not, whether it should be stopped or not it is not a "win" for the home country people are leaving. I am not arguing for or against, I am arguing that the pointed problem is not fabricated.
      - chirau 5y ago
        Many??? I doubt this is true. I am African, and throughout my college years, I established a very extensive network of African scholars in the US. I can safely say that more than 95% of them stayed in the US. The number for Africans is obviously higher, but even in my own college network, most of the international students stay in the US. The few who go back are either because they are rich or already have something lined up for them, or they did not get a job/visa to stay. Otherwise, for the overwhelming majority, the plan is to stay and most of them end up doing so.
        zozbot234 5y ago
        Many African countries have truly dismal institutional arrangements that make return migration extremely unattractive. But when countries strive to improve, they stand to gain huge advantages from people coming back with good education and skills they acquired in a developed country.
- throwaway6734 5y ago
  This is ridiculous hyperbole. Most of the talent coming to the US are able to actually leverage their talent and live much more comfortable fulfilling lives here. Why would you want to deny those individuals their right to wealth and a more comfortable life?
  - newsclues 5y ago
    I don’t want to deny people anything, I want to distribute the talent and opportunity for success to bring up the standard of living globally instead of focusing all the success, opportunity and wealth in developed countries. Is it fair to the less talented people of a developing nation that America takes the best doctors and teachers? Doesn’t that harm the development of that nation?
    - throwaway6734 5y ago
      How much of your own capital do you invest in developing countries? > I want to distribute the talent and opportunity for success to bring up the standard of living globally instead of focusing all the success, opportunity and wealth in developed countries This is assuming that talent in developing countries will be able to leverage their talent in those countries. These individuals are more than capable of sending back capital that they earn in the US if they choose to do so. Also, global standards of living continue to improve due to the advancements made in developed countries. >Is it fair to the less talented people of a developing nation that America takes the best doctors and teachers? The US isn't taking anything, individuals are moving to where they will be most productive. >Doesn’t that harm the development of that nation? Possibly? Do the developing countries that these people are coming from appreciate their talent?
      - newsclues 5y ago
        There are security, infrastructure and supply chain issues, absolutely, but i think it’s solvable. Pick a single country and a few cities, and run a pilot project. Take a bunch of people and train them in the USA, and send them home with a security force, and construct the basic infrastructure required and slowly expand the city with clean water, food, businesses. But by bit build a better world. Or, continue to capture the best and brightest, and ignoring the brain draining of the developing world and hope that they figure it out on their own.
- FredPret 5y ago
  Your suggestion implies that the source country owns the brains, not the individuals involved. Should people really have to swim upstream all their lives in societies they don’t want to be in? As an emigrant, and the owner of a brain, I find that idea abhorrent.
  - newsclues 5y ago
    No ownership, but responsibly to the community. I see many famous athletes who go to their hometown in America and invest in under developed neighborhoods they grew up in, and see that as a model for investing in communities on a global level. It seems better than taking the best talent and allowing the cycle of poverty to continue. Why is extracting talented humans from the developing world good for the developing world?
    - wrinkl3 5y ago
      > I see many famous athletes who go to their hometown in America and invest in under developed neighborhoods they grew up in, and see that as a model for investing in communities on a global level. But those athletes became famous and successful precisely because they were allowed to leave and pursue their dreams - had they been stuck in their hometowns they wouldn't have achieved anything of the same caliber. If it's okay to leave your hometown, why isn't it okay to leave your home country? The notion that people are beholden to the country they're born in is absolutely braindead. You're basically saying that a person born in a gutter should stay in that gutter because the gutter might benefit from it.
      - FredPret 5y ago
        Precisely. And there’s another dimension: what if the source country didn’t welcome the emigré? Should someone be forced to contribute to a society if they are not wanted? I was surplus to requirements in my birth country so I left. Others I know left their birth nations for the new world because they are gay or atheist or a minority and didn’t feel welcome. Talented or not, these people should be able to apply to move where they want to go.
- sharadov 5y ago
  Not necessary. I know folks who came here studied and worked (got tired of the green card waiting game), went back home and started companies.
- deepnotderp 5y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O-ring_theory_of_economic_development https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O-ring_theory_of_economic_deve...
Mauricebranagh 5y ago
Then you'd just get people gaming the system or fake diploma mills - the rise of paper MBA's is one example. And how do you make sure your getting students on Merit and not on wealth or social status how do you get the self taught Steve Woznick from say Nigeria, Keynya or Argentina In the UK one establishment in London was shut down as they found a massive number of their "students" working in restaurants in brick lane.
- cle 5y ago
  You get "gaming the system" with any strategy, so pointing that out isn't very helpful. We should focus on weighing the specific tradeoffs of the various approaches, instead of dismissing them outright b/c they even require tradeoffs.
- rgblambda 5y ago
  >In the UK one establishment in London was shut down as they found a massive number of their "students" working in restaurants in brick lane. What was the name of the university?
- Natsu 5y ago
  > And how do you make sure your getting students on Merit and not on wealth I hate to break this to you, but if you're rich enough, you can already essentially buy an EB-5 visa by doing the right sort of investing: https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/permanent-workers/employment-based-immigration-fifth-preference-eb-5/about-the-eb-5-visa-classification https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/permanent... Also, the USCIS is self-funded from application fees, so letting a few rich people pay huge amounts could actually lower fees for everyone else. But yes, overall, the system is hell to navigate as I know from having hired lawyers and filed papers with them myself. It's already quite unfriendly to anyone who isn't capable of jumping through complicated hoops. For example, recently they started rejecting applications that leave any field blank, so you must write N/A or 0 or whatever as discussed in the instructions. Except the PDF validation doesn't allow a slash in there, so how do I ensure the system doesn't think I have 5 kids named NA NA NA? And 00/00/0000 isn't exactly a valid birthday, either. And some sections say "only fill this out if xyz" making it unclear whether the instructions to leave nothing blank or those instructions should take precedence. Oh, and the Adobe digital signature thing is broken, so you can't actually fill it out with Adobe Acrobat... which they specifically recommend and have to find other PDF software. They also specifically state that height should be entered with a leading zero, their example being 5' 09" ... and the PDF does not permit that leading zero, leaving you with 5' 9" contradicting their own example in the instructions. Yeah, I filled out what I could in a different PDF viewer, printed it, then complied with the instructions by fixing the problems with a pen because we can lose status if they had decided not to accept the application in time. It worked, but the whole thing is just an exercise in frustration.
sg47 5y ago
The H1B visa is designed for indentured labor. We need your work and taxes but we won't give you permanence and your life may be uprooted any time so better be subservient to your master. Either restrict H1B to 6 years without extension or give everyone who's good enough to hold a job for 6 years a green card.
atomicnumber3 5y ago
w.r.t. fake universities, doesn't the accreditation process already handle that?
jollybean 5y ago
It might be that, but it would effectively be a means for Universities to basically sell citizenship for massive revenue. Grad School programs are not that hard to get into or even pass. 'True H1Bs' - used what they are meant for and not as 'Infosys Visas' possibly altered a little bit for flexibility, I think are closer to what is needed.

anovikov 5y ago

I think it doesn't exist precisely because it will create innumerous diploma mills that will also be now passport mills... Fake degrees are already a thing and they are bad for economy and society as they are, and very little can be done about them - economic incentive is too high.

newsclues 5y ago

But doesn’t this type of migration lead to brain drains? If you take the best talent from the developing world and move them all to America for education and then capture their talents through migration, you deprived the developing world of the talent they need to develop and thrive, which puts the developing world even further behind! Seems like if we want to help the developing world we need to train and equip their talented people and ensure they have the security and infrastructure to build their homelands into developed nations with established trade routes, etc. Or we can continue to exploit developing countries by snatching their top talent. It’s not modern day slavery, but it seems to be uncomfortably close in its exploitation.

zozbot234 5y ago
"Brain drain" is a net benefit to the source country. Brains are worthless on their own without higher education and the know-how that's gained from being an expat to a developed country. It's very much a win-win arrangement.
- afiori 5y ago
  It is a win for the home country only if the expat comes back, then they get access to an educated individual that would have been hard to train internally.
  - zozbot234 5y ago
    Many expats do come back to their home country, and pretty much all expats have at least some meaningful links and interactions with it.
    - afiori 5y ago
      Then that is not a brain drain, in many places (like my own country) very few people come back. In that case whether justified of not, whether it should be stopped or not it is not a "win" for the home country people are leaving. I am not arguing for or against, I am arguing that the pointed problem is not fabricated.
    - chirau 5y ago
      Many??? I doubt this is true. I am African, and throughout my college years, I established a very extensive network of African scholars in the US. I can safely say that more than 95% of them stayed in the US. The number for Africans is obviously higher, but even in my own college network, most of the international students stay in the US. The few who go back are either because they are rich or already have something lined up for them, or they did not get a job/visa to stay. Otherwise, for the overwhelming majority, the plan is to stay and most of them end up doing so.
      - zozbot234 5y ago
        Many African countries have truly dismal institutional arrangements that make return migration extremely unattractive. But when countries strive to improve, they stand to gain huge advantages from people coming back with good education and skills they acquired in a developed country.
throwaway6734 5y ago
This is ridiculous hyperbole. Most of the talent coming to the US are able to actually leverage their talent and live much more comfortable fulfilling lives here. Why would you want to deny those individuals their right to wealth and a more comfortable life?
- newsclues 5y ago
  I don’t want to deny people anything, I want to distribute the talent and opportunity for success to bring up the standard of living globally instead of focusing all the success, opportunity and wealth in developed countries. Is it fair to the less talented people of a developing nation that America takes the best doctors and teachers? Doesn’t that harm the development of that nation?
  - throwaway6734 5y ago
    How much of your own capital do you invest in developing countries? > I want to distribute the talent and opportunity for success to bring up the standard of living globally instead of focusing all the success, opportunity and wealth in developed countries This is assuming that talent in developing countries will be able to leverage their talent in those countries. These individuals are more than capable of sending back capital that they earn in the US if they choose to do so. Also, global standards of living continue to improve due to the advancements made in developed countries. >Is it fair to the less talented people of a developing nation that America takes the best doctors and teachers? The US isn't taking anything, individuals are moving to where they will be most productive. >Doesn’t that harm the development of that nation? Possibly? Do the developing countries that these people are coming from appreciate their talent?
    - newsclues 5y ago
      There are security, infrastructure and supply chain issues, absolutely, but i think it’s solvable. Pick a single country and a few cities, and run a pilot project. Take a bunch of people and train them in the USA, and send them home with a security force, and construct the basic infrastructure required and slowly expand the city with clean water, food, businesses. But by bit build a better world. Or, continue to capture the best and brightest, and ignoring the brain draining of the developing world and hope that they figure it out on their own.
FredPret 5y ago
Your suggestion implies that the source country owns the brains, not the individuals involved. Should people really have to swim upstream all their lives in societies they don’t want to be in? As an emigrant, and the owner of a brain, I find that idea abhorrent.
- newsclues 5y ago
  No ownership, but responsibly to the community. I see many famous athletes who go to their hometown in America and invest in under developed neighborhoods they grew up in, and see that as a model for investing in communities on a global level. It seems better than taking the best talent and allowing the cycle of poverty to continue. Why is extracting talented humans from the developing world good for the developing world?
  - wrinkl3 5y ago
    > I see many famous athletes who go to their hometown in America and invest in under developed neighborhoods they grew up in, and see that as a model for investing in communities on a global level. But those athletes became famous and successful precisely because they were allowed to leave and pursue their dreams - had they been stuck in their hometowns they wouldn't have achieved anything of the same caliber. If it's okay to leave your hometown, why isn't it okay to leave your home country? The notion that people are beholden to the country they're born in is absolutely braindead. You're basically saying that a person born in a gutter should stay in that gutter because the gutter might benefit from it.
    - FredPret 5y ago
      Precisely. And there’s another dimension: what if the source country didn’t welcome the emigré? Should someone be forced to contribute to a society if they are not wanted? I was surplus to requirements in my birth country so I left. Others I know left their birth nations for the new world because they are gay or atheist or a minority and didn’t feel welcome. Talented or not, these people should be able to apply to move where they want to go.
sharadov 5y ago
Not necessary. I know folks who came here studied and worked (got tired of the green card waiting game), went back home and started companies.
deepnotderp 5y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O-ring_theory_of_economic_development https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O-ring_theory_of_economic_deve...

Mauricebranagh 5y ago

Then you'd just get people gaming the system or fake diploma mills - the rise of paper MBA's is one example. And how do you make sure your getting students on Merit and not on wealth or social status how do you get the self taught Steve Woznick from say Nigeria, Keynya or Argentina In the UK one establishment in London was shut down as they found a massive number of their "students" working in restaurants in brick lane.

cle 5y ago
You get "gaming the system" with any strategy, so pointing that out isn't very helpful. We should focus on weighing the specific tradeoffs of the various approaches, instead of dismissing them outright b/c they even require tradeoffs.
rgblambda 5y ago
>In the UK one establishment in London was shut down as they found a massive number of their "students" working in restaurants in brick lane. What was the name of the university?
Natsu 5y ago
> And how do you make sure your getting students on Merit and not on wealth I hate to break this to you, but if you're rich enough, you can already essentially buy an EB-5 visa by doing the right sort of investing: https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/permanent-workers/employment-based-immigration-fifth-preference-eb-5/about-the-eb-5-visa-classification https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/permanent... Also, the USCIS is self-funded from application fees, so letting a few rich people pay huge amounts could actually lower fees for everyone else. But yes, overall, the system is hell to navigate as I know from having hired lawyers and filed papers with them myself. It's already quite unfriendly to anyone who isn't capable of jumping through complicated hoops. For example, recently they started rejecting applications that leave any field blank, so you must write N/A or 0 or whatever as discussed in the instructions. Except the PDF validation doesn't allow a slash in there, so how do I ensure the system doesn't think I have 5 kids named NA NA NA? And 00/00/0000 isn't exactly a valid birthday, either. And some sections say "only fill this out if xyz" making it unclear whether the instructions to leave nothing blank or those instructions should take precedence. Oh, and the Adobe digital signature thing is broken, so you can't actually fill it out with Adobe Acrobat... which they specifically recommend and have to find other PDF software. They also specifically state that height should be entered with a leading zero, their example being 5' 09" ... and the PDF does not permit that leading zero, leaving you with 5' 9" contradicting their own example in the instructions. Yeah, I filled out what I could in a different PDF viewer, printed it, then complied with the instructions by fixing the problems with a pen because we can lose status if they had decided not to accept the application in time. It worked, but the whole thing is just an exercise in frustration.

sg47 5y ago

The H1B visa is designed for indentured labor. We need your work and taxes but we won't give you permanence and your life may be uprooted any time so better be subservient to your master. Either restrict H1B to 6 years without extension or give everyone who's good enough to hold a job for 6 years a green card.

atomicnumber3 5y ago

w.r.t. fake universities, doesn't the accreditation process already handle that?

jollybean 5y ago

It might be that, but it would effectively be a means for Universities to basically sell citizenship for massive revenue. Grad School programs are not that hard to get into or even pass. 'True H1Bs' - used what they are meant for and not as 'Infosys Visas' possibly altered a little bit for flexibility, I think are closer to what is needed.